So who's going to see the Pope?

FrancieBrady

joe40 wrote: »

That would appear to be the case as far as I can see, but obviously I could be wrong. I don't have a problem with that.

No wonder it is a religion in crisis and decline here.

ligerdub

jimmynokia wrote: »

Figures released I dont believe them

https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/television/tv-news/revealed-how-many-viewers-tuned-in-to-watch-pope-francis-in-ireland-on-rt-one-37256617.html

I guarantee they weren't far off that, it was a hugely significant event for Ireland. A high viewership number doesn't even automatically mean that everyone watching was doing so as it corresponds to their religion, I'm sure a lot looked on for a combination of religious reasons, curiosity of a large event happening in their country, curiosity about potential comments on abortion/LGBT (because they always must get a mention these days)/historical abuse claims etc.

I've been a non-believer for many years now, but I can't help but think that a lot of the coverage of the Pope's visit was needlessly negative, and I feel that one could legitimately hold a cynical viewpoint that the organisers were deliberately doing all they could to keep attendance numbers down on the Sunday event. People were told to go to entrance gates potentially very inconvenient to them depending on where they were coming from, in many cases involving very long walks despite leaving from relatively near the park to begin with! I'm aware of several people who had to walk from the Red Cow to attend the event! That's madness, for anybody, let alone people well on in years. I'm also aware that there were quite a few problems in terms of the organisation of tickets.

I didn't attend the event myself, it would have been hypocritical for me to do so, and I had almost no interest in it. However, I think it's rather unfair that a lot of people, who otherwise would have felt great benefit and privilege to attend this, possibly their last chance to do so, could not reasonably do so.

The link below seems to go on a lot about how the organisers seemed quite happy that it was an easy event to manage because not that many showed up.

https://www.rte.ie/news/pope-francis-in-ireland/2018/0827/987850-phoenix-park/

The aftermath of this is that the narrative is that Catholicism is dead in Ireland (some parts of the media going to town on this), and while the numbers trend in that regard is not encouraging from their point of view, I think a more crowd friendly approach would have seen much, much bigger numbers attend on the day than what was seen. The weather was also abysmal, and with the easy option of watching on the tv I'm sure this was a viable option for many. There are many sticks to beat the Catholic Church with, and I think the integrated links of Church and State was not healthy, but the narrative that there's not the demand to get in the region of 300K plus people to attend a one in a generation papal visit on a normal Sunday afternoon in summer is massively wide of the mark. Fair is fair and all that.

Sofiztikated

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So no answer then, just some wishy washy nonsense that we hear all the time about the 'fullness of the mercy of God'.

Why are there rules and dogma if it all comes down to what God decides?

"Here are the rules that makes you Roman Catholic, you don't have to follow any, many or all of them, you're still a Roman Catholic."

joe40

It is definitely in crisis but are you seriously suggesting this would be reversed if they were to take a more hardline approach and enforce dogma to the letter of the law.
Some priests do that ironically the younger ones, small in number but sometimes very zealous.
Over the years different priest I have met have very different approaches and attitudes. Maybe this is a weakness but I would suggest that if priests had maintained the hardline approach of the 50s the church would be totally dead by now.

FrancieBrady

Sofiztikated wrote: »

"Here are the rules that makes you Roman Catholic, you don't have to follow any, many or all of them, you're still a Roman Catholic."

And yet when you ask them to allow same sex marriage, divorce or abortion they will fall back on the mantra that those things are against the will of God. :rolleyes::rolleyes:
But then God will probably turn a blind eye in the fullness of his mercy anyway so let at it, just pretend you aren't letting at it...on Sundays and at weddings etc..

ligerdub

ligerdub wrote: »

and I feel that one could legitimately hold a cynical viewpoint that the organisers were deliberately doing all they could to keep attendance numbers down on the Sunday event. People were told to go to entrance gates potentially very inconvenient to them depending on where they were coming from, in many cases involving very long walks despite leaving from relatively near the park to begin with! I'm aware of several people who had to walk from the Red Cow to attend the event! That's madness, for anybody, let alone people well on in years. I'm also aware that there were quite a few problems in terms of the organisation of tickets.

I didn't attend the event myself, it would have been hypocritical for me to do so, and I had almost no interest in it. However, I think it's rather unfair that a lot of people, who otherwise would have felt great benefit and privilege to attend this, possibly their last chance to do so, could not reasonably do so.

The link below seems to go on a lot about how the organisers seemed quite happy that it was an easy event to manage because not that many showed up.

https://www.rte.ie/news/pope-francis-in-ireland/2018/0827/987850-phoenix-park/

The weather was also abysmal, and with the easy option of watching on the tv I'm sure this was a viable option for many. There are many sticks to beat the Catholic Church with, and I think the integrated links of Church and State was not healthy, but the narrative that there's not the demand to get in the region of 300K plus people to attend a one in a generation papal visit on a normal Sunday afternoon in summer is massively wide of the mark. Fair is fair and all that.

Very much agree with your post in general and specifically the piece in bold above.
I would have thought parishes would have done more around organizing coaches to designated areas within the Park- that would have made the trip viable for many who wouldn’t be best equipped to go it alone.
Instead we got:
1. We have a morgue in case you die
2. All roads within a number of kilometers will be impassable
3. Take public transport that will leave you miles away from the venue
4. If you’re in a wheelchair, don’t bother coming
5. If you’re living close by, we’ll send you on a totally unnecessary 3km detour.

Given the demographic who would have liked to go, more could have been done for these people. No point in “organizing” a great venue, if the people ear marked to attend have to negotiate all sorts of obstacles.

Sofiztikated

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Very much agree with your post in general and specifically the piece in bold above.
I would have thought parishes would have done more around organizing coaches to designated areas within the Park- that would have made the trip viable for many who wouldn’t be best equipped to go it alone.
Instead we got:
1. We have a morgue in case you die
2. All roads within a number of kilometers will be impassable
3. Take public transport that will leave you miles away from the venue
4. If you’re in a wheelchair, don’t bother coming
5. If you’re living close by, we’ll send you on a totally unnecessary 3km detour.

Given the demographic who would have liked to go, more could have been done for these people. No point in “organizing” a great venue, if the people ear marked to attend have to negotiate all sorts of obstacles.

To be fair, without that organisation, if the numbers turned up that were touted, it would have been chaos, and the state would have been made out to be unprepared.

Plus there's the added element of increased security. If "something" had happened, the State would be goosed on an international stage.

FrancieBrady

Sofiztikated wrote: »

To be fair, without that organisation, if the numbers turned up that were touted, it would have been chaos, and the state would have been made out to be unprepared.

Plus there's the added element of increased security. If "something" had happened, the State would be goosed on an international stage.

It just more excuse making. If there was any size of a crowd that had complaints about not being able to get there or were put off from going Joe Duffy's switchboard would have gone into meltdown. Very few publicily complaining about this.

NIMAN

RoryMac wrote: »

It's a lie, he has met with Philomena Lee and the Archbishop has talked about his shock when being told about the Mother & baby homes previously.

Not sure why he is trying to deny knowledge now when it's on record he knew

Afaik, he had the details of the mother and baby homes and the laundries explained to him by Archbishop Eamon Martin when they met before.

So he's flat out lying.

Arthur Daley

ligerdub wrote: »

I've been a non-believer for many years now, but I can't help but think that a lot of the coverage of the Pope's visit was needlessly negative, and I feel that one could legitimately hold a cynical viewpoint that the organisers were deliberately doing all they could to keep attendance numbers down on the Sunday event.

There are many sticks to beat the Catholic Church with, and I think the integrated links of Church and State was not healthy, but the narrative that there's not the demand to get in the region of 300K plus people to attend a one in a generation papal visit on a normal Sunday afternoon in summer is massively wide of the mark. Fair is fair and all that.

Fair play. I reached a similar conclusion based on what I saw actually going to it yesterday.

murpho999

I wish people would stop making excuses for the poor attendance.

The same issues with road closures, transport and walking were faced in 1979 and over a million turned up.

Do people think that some rain kept 370,000 people away?

Do people really think that the majority of these 370,000 people are infirm (how could they know that?) ?

Just accept that the demand was not there.

Hitman3000

For all those making multiple excuses for the poor attendance on Sunday, any thoughts on the dismal numbers on Saturday? Fine sunny day, through the city street not even a third of the expected 100k out on the streets.

CUCINA

I wouldn't class myself as particularly religious but I did watch a lot of the TV coverage, especially on the Saturday.
The three highlights for me were:
The aerial shots of Dublin
The speech by Leo Varadkar
Andrea Bocelli

I would respect the religious convictions of others, but I had to give up watching the Phoenix Park event... Dreary music, dreary weather.. Papal platitudes.

The band Police had a great line in one of their songs:
"Poets, priests, and politicians have words to thank for their positions"

fly_agaric

All this talk of the enforcement of the rules and regulations of being a real-deal Catholic and orders from our angry new atheist authoritarians on exactly how a good citizen should fill in the census form:eek:

Do they really think that local priests are going to start raining down fire and brimstone from the pulpit at mass about how Joe Bloggs just slunk in the back and hasn't been seen since Easter Sunday is going to roast in the fires of Hell?

Suppose it makes for a nice little fantasy, fuel for a five minutes hate. :pac:

Sofiztikated

Sofiztikated wrote: »

To be fair, without that organisation, if the numbers turned up that were touted, it would have been chaos, and the state would have been made out to be unprepared.

Plus there's the added element of increased security. If "something" had happened, the State would be goosed on an international stage.

Ah yeah, I get all that and took it into consideration when I posted my reply. I travelled west Sunday morning. Road heading East was eerily quiet. Only a couple of coaches and those were the usual ones you’d see anyway that time of day. I’m not criticizing the organization of the venue - from what I’ve heard, it was second to none. I’m criticizing the ability of the organizers to make it easy for people to approach the venue from where they were coming from. They just didn’t achieve this.

Beechwoodspark

Look at all the catholic

Baptisms
Holy communions
Confirmations
Weddings
And funerals

That are held in this country. It’s deeply catholic. Less so than 1979 but still, come on like

batgoat

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Look at all the catholic

Baptisms
Holy communions
Confirmations
Weddings
And funerals

That are held in this country. It’s deeply catholic. Less so than 1979 but still, come on like

You'll likely see less and less opting for Catholic funerals and weddings as time goes on. Baptisms, communions and confirmations are because our education system does have the right to discriminate based on if you are baptised or not. If Communions and Confirmations weren't enshrined in our education system, the numbers would fall off a cliff...

FrancieBrady

fly_agaric wrote: »

All this talk of the enforcement of the rules and regulations of being a real-deal Catholic and orders from our angry new atheist authoritarians on exactly how a good citizen should fill in the census form:eek:

Do they really think that local priests are going to start raining down fire and brimstone from the pulpit at mass about how Joe Bloggs just slunk in the back and hasn't been seen since Easter Sunday is going to roast in the fires of Hell?

Suppose it makes for nice little fantasy, fuel for a five minutes hate. :pac:

If nobody adheres to them, why have them? Why all the nonsense when people require modern social change?

By all means keep up the pretence and lies, but the church will just dive deeper into it's crisis.

Because nobody at heart really believes any of it and can cast off the bull**** in the ballot box and the bedroom and when it comes to seeing the pope apparently or going to mass. Another few scandals, which are coming, and it will be impossible to see this visit as anything other than a fudge and charade.

murpho999

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Look at all the catholic

Baptisms
Holy communions
Confirmations
Weddings
And funerals

That are held in this country. It’s deeply catholic. Less so than 1979 but still, come on like

That's the a la carte Catholics in action but they don't live the rest of their lives as the catholics want.
Onlly happens for cultural reasons or through kids being forced to attend catholic schools.

Look at all the couples living in sin.
How many couples getting married are virgins?
How many go to mass every weekend which is a requirement?
How many use contraception outside the rhythm method?
How any voted for divorce, abortion and gay marriage?

Spanish Eyes

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Look at all the catholic

Baptisms
Holy communions
Confirmations
Weddings
And funerals

That are held in this country. It’s deeply catholic. Less so than 1979 but still, come on like

Cultural, not religious IMV. And traditional too.

I don't think many people attending such services/celebration even think of God or the Pope or anything other than how quickly will this be over please God!

amdublin

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Look at all the catholic

Baptisms
Holy communions
Confirmations
Weddings
And funerals

That are held in this country. It’s deeply catholic. Less so than 1979 but still, come on like

Well I think the party attached to all of those gets more attention than the Catholic part of it!

Also...there was no alternative to them for years and years. Every year more and more couples forego the church part and have their weddings in the hotel. I guess funerals are next - people will look for alternatives that are non religious.

And baptisms no doubt will go down - Sure a lot of people were doing them just for school entry

Beechwoodspark

murpho999 wrote: »

That's the a la carte Catholics in action but they don't live the rest of their lives as the catholics want.
Onlly happens for cultural reasons or through kids being forced to attend catholic schools.

Look at all the couples living in sin.
How many couples getting married are virgins?
How many go to mass every weekend which is a requirement?
How many use contraception outside the rhythm method?
How any voted for divorce, abortion and gay marriage?

I’d say loads of them don’t match up to the perfect catholic template! They still go and have the catholic ceremonies though! Often really ostentatious displays too

Beechwoodspark

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Cultural, not religious IMV. And traditional too.

I don't think many people attending such services/celebration even think of God or the Pope or anything other than how quickly will this be over please God!

That’s my point exactly.

They still go back to the church for various reasons. This perfect catholic thing doesn’t really exist except for the hardcore believers. The rest just are a la carte as someone said above.

Sofiztikated

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ah yeah, I get all that and took it into consideration when I posted my reply. I travelled west Sunday morning. Road heading East was eerily quiet. Only a couple of coaches and those were the usual ones you’d see anyway that time of day. I’m not criticizing the organization of the venue - from what I’ve heard, it was second to none. I’m criticizing the ability of the organizers to make it easy for people to approach the venue from where they were coming from. They just didn’t achieve this.

I was heading north on the M3 at 4am and there was reasonable traffic heading in at that point, not heavy, but more than usual.

At least 2 stewards at virtually every junction around the park at that time too.

They were just over prepared for the numbers.

CUCINA

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Look at all the catholic

Baptisms
Holy communions
Confirmations
Weddings
And funerals

That are held in this country. It’s deeply catholic. Less so than 1979 but still, come on like

I wouldn't agree with the statement that Ireland is deeply Catholic. A lot of the above events are subject to family pressures from the older generations And I'd say that there will continue to be an increase in Humanist events to mark some of the occasions referenced above.

Stoner

I regret not going

Beechwoodspark

CUCINA wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with the statement that Ireland is deeply Catholic. A lot of the above events are subject to family pressures from the older generations And I'd say that there will continue to be an increase in Humanist events to mark some of the occasions referenced above.

Probably will. It was overwhelmingly Catholic for decades so only really can decrease over time.

murpho999

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I’d say loads of them don’t match up to the perfect catholic template! They still go and have the catholic ceremonies though! Often really ostentatious displays too

It''s only done due to social norms and as it's the expected thing to do and none of it is for true religious reasons at all.

Beechwoodspark

murpho999 wrote: »

It''s only done due to social norms and as it's the expected thing to do and none of it is for true religious reasons at all.

I’d say that covers a lot but also lot of ppl would tell u how much they believe in it all. Each to their own

fly_agaric

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If nobody adheres to them, why have them? Why all the nonsense when people require modern social change?

I'd not be so arrogant as to know what Irish people as a collective "require", but fair enough.
We've made a lot of improvements but not all of it is positive.

As regards to why many people still have a certain attachment to the rituals (going to mass once or twice a year, weddings, funerals, sending children to a catholic run school, as many do even if they are fortunate enough to have other options locally) when they should "know better" as you'd put it, I'm not sure.

I also feel the pull of these rituals due to upbringing. I can see it does fulfil a need for people. Why do people still call themselves "jews" + celebrate the big events in their religion if they don't follow the letter of the religious law? Why do many protestant Christians around Europe also act in a fairly similar way?

I suppose your answer is they are all just "liars"? There's something to be said for that but it is kind of harsh.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

By all means keep up the pretence and lies, but the church will just dive deeper into it's crisis.

Why the "but"? You want it to die don't you?