Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

FrancieBrady

Silentcorner wrote: »

Excuse me?

I am a man...

I feel the time is right to reform the legal process when it comes to rape cases....

There was an article this morning in a Belfast news outlet...last year there were 825 alleged rapes....15 convictions....now can you not see the problem with that? Are you that blind?????

I'd imagine the number are similar here in the Republic....

I do not and cannot be identified as some kind of feminist....I don't give a fukk what you or anyone thinks of me...

I can't for the life of me understand how any man could feel threatened in any way or insulted in any way at the suggestion that we change the way we process rape cases.....

And that makes me some kind of creep?????

So what are the 'we believe her' banners about?

They are clearly protesting the verdict in this case. If you want reform (which I think has to happen too) this is not the way to do it.

GreeBo

_Dara_ wrote: »

I’m against these protests but wtf is up with this non sequitur? People were found guilty there so what would people be protesting about?

Well the trial was in a different country to the protests..
We are still a little unsure as to what changes I Ireland these people are looking for, other than dispensing with trials altogether. #womenneverlie

The Talking Bread

irishrebe wrote: »

We moved away from Clondalkin in my last year of primary. Would you like me to give you the exact address?

I give up. Your account of the story when played out against all your posts is as inconsistent as anything. You continuously harped on about your schooling and growing up in Clondalkin when discussing your upbringing. Never alluded once to anywhere else? When people speak about growing up they wouldn't cut short at where they lived up until 11 years of age?

"I grew up in Clondalkin"

"I grew up on a sh*tty estate in Clondalkin"

"I'm from Clondalkin and heard as much of that sh1te studying at Trinity than I did back on my estate." (I mean, were you privy to or understand the context of these chats at 10 years of age...........)

irishrebe

Omackeral wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

I wouldn't say so, no. But if living in not nice parts of Dublin, going to Trinity (ever heard of a thing called the TAP?), learning a few foreign languages and living abroad is so unbelievable to you that you think I'm making it up, I'm actually quite flattered.

Not only have I heard of it, I partook in it. Physical and Life Sciences back in 2003/04. I speak Irish fairly well and am currently learning Spanish. We’re fairly similar you and I.... well except for the daily sexual comments and random abuse from perfect strangers and passers by.

We might even have met in college so. And yet you're implying that it's so far fetched to come from a sh1te area, go to Trinity, speak several languages and live abroad that I must be lying? Or did I misunderstand the point of your comment?

Nermal

Silentcorner wrote: »

There was an article this morning in a Belfast news outlet...last year there were 825 alleged rapes....15 convictions....now can you not see the problem with that?

The criminal justice system is not constructed to maximise the chance of conviction. Deal with it.

irishrebe

The Talking Bread wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

We moved away from Clondalkin in my last year of primary. Would you like me to give you the exact address?

I give up. Your account of the story when played out against all your posts is as inconsistent as anything. You continuously harped on about your schooling and growing up in Clondalkin when discussing your upbringing. Never alluded once to anywhere else? When people speak about growing up they wouldn't cut short at where they lived up until 11 years of age?

"I grew up in Clondalkin"

"I grew up on a sh*tty estate in Clondalkin"

"I'm from Clondalkin and heard as much of that sh1te studying at Trinity than I did back on my estate."  (I mean, were you privy to or understand the context of these chats at 10 years of age...........)

You're actually expecting a complete stranger on the internet to tell you exactly where they lived and when? Are you kidding me? I lived in Clondalkin from age 3 to 11, and then again from 16-17 (I'm not exactly sure of the exact date we moved back - let me ring my ma and I'll get back to you) to 21 and again after that at different times, so yes, I tell people I'm from Clondalkin. Some of my best friends have no idea that I wasn't born there or that I lived in a different area for a time, and yet someone on Boards.ie thinks he's entitled to tell me I'm a liar because I didn't list every address I've ever lived at. Jesus F*cking Christ On A Bike.

anthonyjmaher

I really don't understand why the lads are not immediately reinstated in their positions. They have already paid a huge punishment. Two of the best years of a short career, gone. No comeback, no reparations, and a stain on his character with all of these nutjobs who want to find them guilty even though the courts fine. Fine if they want to punish them for drinking if they were not meant to be drinking, or to punish them if they were not meant to be out late at night. But they were found innocent, and it's not the job of their employer to tell them who they can or cant have sex with.

Bob_Marley

The root cause of all this mess was the excessive consumption of alcohol by the participants.

The complainant was not deliberately lying as some claim.
The conduct of the accused was extremely questionable, but legally, they were deemed not guilty of actual rape.

Here's the crux of the case and why the Jury unanimously acquitted them after hearing 9 weeks of evidence in this very complex case :

“I want to acknowledge publicly that though I committed no criminal offence on the evening of the 28th of June 2016, I regret deeply the events of that evening.

“I want to acknowledge that the complainant came to court and gave evidence about her perception of those events.

“I am sorry for the hurt that was caused to the complainant.

“It was never my intention to cause any upset to anyone on that night.

“I don’t agree with her perception of events, and I maintain that everything that happened that evening was consensual.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/stuart-olding-i-am-sorry-for-the-hurt-that-was-caused-to-the-complainant-1.3443214

The trial hasn't ruined anyones life, unsocial media has, and the law in NI badly needs to be changed.

Nermal

Bob_Marley wrote: »

The conduct of the accused was extremely questionable

How?

fly_agaric

Nermal wrote: »

The criminal justice system is not constructed to maximise the chance of conviction. Deal with it.

Its the 21st century. We don't need courts, trials, judges, beyond reasonable doubt or any of that archaic gobbledegook. Vote buttons on twitter for guilt or innocence + radio buttons for punishment options are the way forward!

The Talking Bread

irishrebe wrote: »

You're actually expecting a complete stranger on the internet to tell you exactly where they lived and when? Are you kidding me? I lived in Clondalkin from age 3 to 11, and then again from 16-17 (I'm not exactly sure of the exact date we moved back - let me ring my ma and I'll get back to you) to 21 and again after that at different times, so yes, I tell people I'm from Clondalkin. Some of my best friends have no idea that I wasn't born there or that I lived in a different area for a time, and yet someone on Boards.ie thinks he's entitled to tell me I'm a liar because I didn't list every address I've ever lived at. Jesus F*cking Christ On A Bike.

You have been extremely open about it up until now?? You are not afraid to express about how sh*te Clondalkin is, as if it is a badge of honour that you achieved academically? I am not asking you to tell me anything. It is you who has been harping on about your childhood in a "sh*te" (your words) village in Dublin.

If anything, going by the fact that you were continuosly sexually harassed when you moved away from Clondalkin and up until you returned, your time in Clondalkin should spark good memories. And you should be alluding to the other place as "sh*te"

Silentcorner

suicide_circus wrote: »

What do you propose? Remove the burden of proving guilt beyond reasonable doubt?

I believe it was wrong to publically name the 4 lads...but that is a Northern Ireland Issue...

I find the media circus a bit hard to take....

I believe it was completely wrong to pit a 21 year old young lady against a legal team totalling 12 people...including facing 4 barristers over 8 days....WITHOUT ANY LEGAL assistance of any kind...at least if she had her own defence team she might of had a sporting chance...

She never got to present to the court character witnesses...her character was assassinated in the pursuit of doubt....

Her underwear were paraded around the court...

The court only saw CCTV footage of her behaviour...

I accept the verdict and I wish the 4 lads well and sincerely hope they can get their lives back on track....

But when you are achieving a rate of 15 convictions out of 825 alleged incidents there is something clearly wrong....

What do you propose...we leave everything as is???????

Silentcorner

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So what are the 'we believe her' banners about?

They are clearly protesting the verdict in this case. If you want reform (which I think has to happen too) this is not the way to do it.

Well sticking our head in the sand isn't working is it....

irishrebe

irishrebe wrote: »

We might even have met in college so. And yet you're implying that it's so far fetched to come from a sh1te area, go to Trinity, speak several languages and live abroad that I must be lying? Or did I misunderstand the point of your comment?

The thing I found hardest of all was the constant abuse from perfect strangers and all the perverted pedophiles you encountered on a daily basis. My sister nor any of my female friends have never complained of this on my sh*thole estate. My brothers nor any of my male friends roar out sexual abuse at pre-teens either. I guess all of that in conjunction with the Good Will Hunting story was a bit of a stretch for me but sure I’m just some bloke online, I could be making all this up.

irishrebe

Bob_Marley wrote: »

The root cause of all this mess was the excessive consumption of alcohol by the participants.

The complainant was not deliberately lying as some claim.
The conduct of the accused was extremely questionable, but legally, they were deemed not guilty of actual rape.

Here's the crux of the case and why the Jury unanimously acquitted them after hearing 9 weeks of evidence in this very complex case :

“I want to acknowledge publicly that though I committed no criminal offence on the evening of the 28th of June 2016, I regret deeply the events of that evening.

“I want to acknowledge that the complainant came to court and gave evidence about her perception of those events.

“I am sorry for the hurt that was caused to the complainant.

“It was never my intention to cause any upset to anyone on that night.

“I don’t agree with her perception of events, and I maintain that everything that happened that evening was consensual.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/stuart-olding-i-am-sorry-for-the-hurt-that-was-caused-to-the-complainant-1.3443214

The trial hasn't ruined anyones life, unsocial media has, and the law in NI badly needs to be changed.

Agree. All parties should be anonymous until a conviction with any leaking of names or identifying info being considered an offence leading to jail time. Accusing someone of rape or being accused of rape should never lead to people's lives being ruined. There's no need for it.

bebeman

Feminists want to behave and be treated like men, until its it does not suit them.
“If it’s never our fault, we can’t take responsibility for it. If we can’t take responsibility for it, we’ll always be its victim.”
— Richard Bach
Modern Feminism in a nutshell.

Silentcorner

bebeman wrote: »

Whats a hickey?

You are disturbed...

Fann Linn

irishrebe wrote: »

You're actually expecting a complete stranger on the internet to tell you exactly where they lived and when? Are you kidding me? I lived in Clondalkin from age 3 to 11, and then again from 16-17 (I'm not exactly sure of the exact date we moved back - let me ring my ma and I'll get back to you) to 21 and again after that at different times, so yes, I tell people I'm from Clondalkin. Some of my best friends have no idea that I wasn't born there or that I lived in a different area for a time, and yet someone on Boards.ie thinks he's entitled to tell me I'm a liar because I didn't list every address I've ever lived at. Jesus F*cking Christ On A Bike.

Look rebe,
as someone else previously said, this is social media, you can say whatever you like here, and others can say they were waterboarded in Guantanamo, and others can say they flew the rocket to the moon with Neil Armstrong.

And equally, others are free to believe or disbelieve.
No need to get your home address.

wexie

fly_agaric wrote: »

Its the 21st century. We don't need courts, trials, judges, beyond reasonable doubt or any of that archaic gobbledegook. Vote buttons on twitter for guilt or innocence + radio buttons for punishment options are the way forward!

....good movie plot in that right there :o

Bob_Marley

Nermal wrote: »

How?

A supposedly professional sports person consuming huge quantities of alcohol, and then engaging in threesome with a very drunk vulnerable young girl who unfortunately for her, could not prove beyond doubt she clearly denied consent and then boasting to all his mates about it and what they did to her despite her extreme distress afterwards ? Do you think this is decent conduct ? Why does he regret the events ?

suicide_circus

Silentcorner wrote: »

I believe it was wrong to publically name the 4 lads...but that is a Northern Ireland Issue...

I find the media circus a bit hard to take....

I believe it was completely wrong to pit a 21 year old young lady against a legal team totalling 12 people...including facing 4 barristers over 8 days....WITHOUT ANY LEGAL assistance of any kind...at least if she had her own defence team she might of had a sporting chance...

She never got to present to the court character witnesses...her character was assassinated in the pursuit of doubt....

Her underwear were paraded around the court...

The court only saw CCTV footage of her behaviour...

I accept the verdict and I wish the 4 lads well and sincerely hope they can get their lives back on track....

But when you are achieving a rate of 15 convictions out of 825 alleged incidents there is something clearly wrong....

What do you propose...we leave everything as is???????

But she had a legal team....

If people accept the verdict what is #ibelieveher all about?

She faced 4 barristers because the CPS brought 4 people to trial based on her complaint.

anthonyjmaher

On the hashtag #IBelieveHer, we are being told that women should be believed without challenge. But I wonder where the female jurors or Dara Florence fit in. They are also women. The female jurors found the guys innocent. Dara Florence said that it looked like consensual sexual activity to her. Do they not believe these women? Maybe the #IBelieveHer only applies to women who they can use to further their myth about all men being sexual predators. They obviously don't believe women who disagree with them.

Todd Gack

Silentcorner wrote: »

I believe it was completely wrong to pit a 21 year old young lady against a legal team totalling 12 people...including facing 4 barristers over 8 days....WITHOUT ANY LEGAL assistance of any kind...at least if she had her own defence team she might of had a sporting chance...

Why would she need a defence team?, she wasn't on trial.

optogirl

Motivator wrote: »

Not unless Jimmy Saville worked in a factory when you were 11.

Entirely unbelievable story. There’s no way a “group” of men would shout and roar in a sexually motivated way at a child. One might do it but not a group. Total lies.

Absolutely not...remember very well being in primary school and having groups of builders shouting. I felt embarrassed and ashamed and a bit unsure as to what it all meant.

Nermal

Silentcorner wrote: »

I believe it was completely wrong to pit a 21 year old young lady against a legal team totalling 12 people...including facing 4 barristers over 8 days....WITHOUT ANY LEGAL assistance of any kind

She's not on trial, what would her representative do?

Silentcorner wrote: »

her character was assassinated in the pursuit of doubt

Hyperbole. She was robustly cross-examined, what else do you want?

Silentcorner wrote: »

Her underwear were paraded around the court...

You want evidence to be kept secret?

Silentcorner wrote: »

What do you propose...we leave everything as is???????

Your only worthwhile proposal is that the defendants be anonymous, everything else would prevent a fair trial.

irishrebe

Omackeral wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

We might even have met in college so. And yet you're implying that it's so far fetched to come from a sh1te area, go to Trinity, speak several languages and live abroad that I must be lying? Or did I misunderstand the point of your comment?

The thing I found hardest of all was the constant abuse from perfect strangers and all the perverted pedophiles you encountered on a daily basis. My sister nor any of my female friends have ever complained of this on my sh*thole estate. My brothers nor any of my male friends roar out sexual abuse at pre-teens either. I guess all of that in conjunction with the Good Will Hunting story was a bit of a stretch for me but sure I’m just some bloke online, I could’ve making all this up.

So if it didn't happen to you, it didn't happen. You do realise we're two different people, from two different areas, and that people's lives and realities can be....different? But if it makes you feel clever to dismiss an account of sexual harassment, go ahead and do so. I'll never understand your mentality.

The Rape of Lucretia

John4Edinburgh wrote: »

Here's a proposal. Stop chasing celebs and ending up drunk and starstruck in their bedroom, start taking some personal responsibility and don't end up drunk in the bedroom of a celebrity.

If you take a balance of probability view, it would seem the moment the group rumpy pumpy became not OK was when the non-celeb came on the scene. Up to that, a pair of internationals seem to be going down pretty OK with her.

Fann Linn

optogirl wrote: »

Absolutely not...remember very well being in primary school and having groups of builders shouting. I felt embarrassed and ashamed and a bit unsure as to what it all meant.

Okay, and what did your parents or teachers do?

foxyladyxx

Most people I have spoken with today agreed that alcohol consumption was the problem here. I don't think any of the four involved knew what happened that night and I don't think that we will never know.

Many young women felt it was a wake up call..

That was the response I got.

Silentcorner

suicide_circus wrote: »

But she had a legal team....

If people accept the verdict what is #ibelieveher all about?

She faced 4 barristers because the CPS brought 4 people to trial based on her complaint.

She did not have a legal team...you are absolutely incorrect...alleged victims have nobody apart from their families with them....

The Ibeleiveher crowd, I am guessing, are exercising their right at protesting what they believe to be an injustice, not just about this case...but about the absolute failure of our society to achieve a conviction rate above 15 out of 825 alleged incidents.....a truly staggering and depressing conviction rate....

I honestly believer her account, but I also honestly believe that the 4 lads should never have been named publically and after due process I wish them well for the future...we should not know the details of this case...it is not in the public interest....more reform needed there also...