Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Mickeroo

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Do you really think that if your wife / sister / mother /daughter was raped, her underwear should be passed around in court while the accused's is not ?
Would you have the big grin then ?

Spare me the hysterics Just pointing out how nonsensical it is to complain about physical evidence being presented in a court of law. I'd imagine if either side felt it would help their case the accused party's underwear would have gotten passed around too.

Nermal

Silentcorner wrote: »

My problem, as is obvious from previous posts...is the pitiful conviction rate for rape....we as a nation should be embarrassed by it...but of course that would involve a degree of self awareness...

In what sense is it pitiful? In what way is it embarrassing? Do you think the goal of the justice system is to rubber-stamp all allegations as proven?

Ken.

Mod-Some posts from a rereg and the replies have been removed.

Silentcorner

suicide_circus wrote: »

Solutions?

I've already suggested a major one...allow a victim legal representation...

Allowing an independent expert in Sexual Assault to explain how victims can react to assaults...

Banning the parading of womens underwear in court...no reason not to allow the jury request if they feel it is neccessary....

How about you, any other suggestions to improve the deplorable conviction rate other than sticking our heads in the sand????

NAGDEFI

neonsofa wrote: »

A person raped by someone they trust- an uncle, a friend, step father, family friend- what "personal responsibility" should they have taken? Not lived in the family home?

A woman asleep in bed with her partner. He rapes her. She just shouldn't have slept? If she took personal responsibility she wouldn't have been raped according to that poster.

A woman dragged into a house and raped by a stranger? "If she took personal responsibility" she wouldn't have been raped.. what exactly should she have done differently, not left her house that day?

You cannot say that if you take personal responsibility you will not be raped.

It was an utterly ridiculous comment and it deserved to be questioned.

I'm not referring to any of those type of rapes but the 'nightlife', threesome, one night stand type. And these are a considerable percentage of rapes.

NOTHING can be done in the other instances you mentioned.

irishrebe

Omackeral wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Never heard of anyone being bullied? That's what these lads were doing, picking on lone women for a cheap laugh. Bit of fun at the end of their boring work day. I'd bet you a thousand euro not one of those lads would consider themselves a sex offender or even a bully. They would have said they were having a bit of banter and sure, we should have loosened up. You know, the same kind of minimising being done by people posting on this very thread. Disregarding of people's boundaries, insistence that it's all a bit of fun. No thought to how unpleasant and intimidating it must be for young girls to be roared at by grown men. I imagine now many of them will be fathers, that they wouldn't want their own daughters to be subject to that, but they weren't thinking of us as someone's daughter,  a child, were they? They saw pretty (not even) teenage girls in school skirts and treated us like objects to be used for their own entertainment.

When I think of kids of 11 and 12 being bullied I think of other kids doing it through name calling and other stuff like that. What you described is horrific. Grown men doing that to children. Pedophillic really. If I caught anyone doing that to a child, I’d up-end them. Twice as much if it were a friend or family member.

That's the thing though. Contrary to what some posters think, it's not easy to tell age. I'm aware that when I was 11, I didn't look 11 because I was so tall and had gone through puberty already (not that harassing older children/teenagers is OK either). I imagine these idiots were thinking we were in our mid teens, and some of the lads doing it were probably 19 or 20 years old. I like to think that as disgraceful as they were, they didn't realise that some of us they were harassing were as young as 11 or 12, but maybe they did know? Maybe they didn't care. I have no idea.

Fann Linn

Silentcorner wrote: »

My problem, as is obvious from previous posts...is the pitiful conviction rate for rape....we as a nation should be embarrassed by it...but of course that would involve a degree of self awareness...

825 court cases, so I assume roughly same amount of defendents all heard in front of a jury.
State provides evidence which is torn apart by defence solicitors. Paltry number of convictions.

There is a possibility that those collating and presenting the evidence are not cpmpetent and proficient enough.

Then there is also the possibility that perhaps those large numbers of alleged offenders are actually innocent.

The Talking Bread

Silentcorner wrote: »

My problem, as is obvious from previous posts...is the pitiful conviction rate for rape....we as a nation should be embarrassed by it...but of course that would involve a degree of self awareness...

So what do you suggest that the jury should be instructed to do when making their decision, a decision based on the only evidence that they are privy to?

Should they lower the "reasonable doubt" bar to "if you have a small bit of doubt, convict them"

What are your suggestions?

I ask this in discussion mode, not attacking your opinions. Moreso inquisitive as to them.

(And to clarify again, the trial which we are discussing is in Northern Ireland, a different jurisdiction). Maybe use examples in this jurisdiction that back up your claims of misjustice in this regard.

neonsofa

NAGDEFI wrote: »

I'm not referring to any of those type of rapes but the 'nightlife', threesome, one night stand type. And these are a considerable percentage of rapes.

NOTHING can be done in the other instances you mentioned.

Hence the original comment-"if you take personal responsibility you will not be raped" - being ridiculous,and quite rightly pointed out as such.

optogirl

NAGDEFI wrote: »

I'm not referring to any of those type of rapes but the 'nightlife', threesome, one night stand type. And these are a considerable percentage of rapes.

NOTHING can be done in the other instances you mentioned.

I'm sorry but I will not accept rape as a possible outcome of a night out drinking. Would you? In seconds we have people saying that women are man haters and suspicious of all men.....followed by a load of posts basically saying women should be suspicious of men.

irishrebe

Fakediamond wrote: »

Fann Linn wrote: »

Okay, and what did your parents or teachers do?

How would they know? children generally don’t tell an adult these things. And if that surprises you, ask the people who were raped by priests/swim coaches/ uncles/neighbours etc why they didn’t tell their parents or teachers.

I honestly cannot believe that in 2018 we still have people asking why child victims of abuse didn't get adults involved. 'Why did you not tell anyone' is still the number 1 way to try to discredit a victim of abuse. Have people learned nothing from the countless scandals in Ireland and the rest of the world?

NAGDEFI

neonsofa wrote: »

Hence the original comment-"if you take personal responsibility you will not be raped" - being ridiculous,and quite rightly pointed out as such.

I'm trying to relate it to the Belfast trial and the role of excessive alcohol consumption, especially on the male side.

The other examples you gave are tragic and i wholeheartedly agree with you. Personal responsibility doesn't come into it.

Maybe i joined the debate a little late and didn't read any more of that posters comments.

I'd be telling my sons and daughters to be careful with alcohol, stay with good friends etc.

Bob_Marley

Silentcorner wrote: »

..what would you do to achieve a higher conviction rate of 15 out of 825 alleged rape incidents...or do you think that the rate is something we all should be proud of?

I don't know, but it's an excellent point, if those stats are true, there is something very seriously wrong with a justice system where 99.98 % of those who are suspected of committing rape in NI get off as not guilty.

NAGDEFI

The Talking Bread wrote: »

So what do you suggest that the jury should be instructed to do when making their decision, a decision based on the only evidence that they are privy to?

Should they lower the "reasonable doubt" bar to "if you have a small bit of doubt, convict them"

What are your suggestions?

I ask this in discussion mode, not attacking your opinions. Moreso inquisitive as to them.

(And to clarify again, the trial which we are discussing is in Northern Ireland, a different jurisdiction). Maybe use examples in this jurisdiction that back up your claims of misjustice in this regard.

I see that poster 'Edinburgh' was a re reg and stirring.

I criticised you as i felt you were calling a common sense approach to drinking and behaviour on nightlife as retarded but there obviously was a lot more said by that poster earlier.

irishrebe

optogirl wrote: »

NAGDEFI wrote: »

I'm not referring to any of those type of rapes but the 'nightlife', threesome, one night stand type. And these are a considerable percentage of rapes.

NOTHING can be done in the other instances you mentioned.

I'm sorry but I will not accept rape as a possible outcome of a night out drinking. Would you? In seconds we have people saying that women are man haters and suspicious of all men.....followed by a load of posts basically saying women should be suspicious of men.

Some of the posters here are making men sound like monsters. We have to be on guard at all times. We can't go to a house with men at it without expecting them to rape us. What's wrong with people?

neonsofa

NAGDEFI wrote: »

I'm trying to relate it to the Belfast trial and the role of excessive alcohol consumption, especially on the male side.

The other examples you gave are tragic and i wholeheartedly agree with you. Personal responsibility doesn't come into it.

Maybe i joined the debate a little late and didn't read any more of that posters comments.

I'd be telling my sons and daughters to be careful with alcohol, stay with good friends etc.

Stay with good friends.
And if the "good friend" happens to rape her?
Going by some posts if she happened to be drunk then she should have just taken more personal responsibility, but if she was sober then it's just tragic and personal responsibility doesn't come into it?

citytillidie

What about these cases in England where police withheld evidence that would have cleared those accused but let them suffer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42795058

NAGDEFI

optogirl wrote: »

I'm sorry but I will not accept rape as a possible outcome of a night out drinking. Would you? In seconds we have people saying that women are man haters and suspicious of all men.....followed by a load of posts basically saying women should be suspicious of men.

There's a night out drinking and being totally unaware of your actions and possibly getting detached from your friends for a female. For a male you may become more aggressive with drink. We'd all like to think we can drink to our hearts galore but drink and drugs lower inhibitions, cause memory loss etc. I'm conservative in my views but i'm not apportioning blame to women or men.

In my opinion the day you wake up and can't remember the night before isn't good. For us all.

Fann Linn

irishrebe wrote: »

I honestly cannot believe that in 2018 we still have people asking why child victims of abuse didn't get adults involved. 'Why did you not tell anyone' is still the number 1 way to try to discredit a victim of abuse. Have people learned nothing from the countless scandals in Ireland and the rest of the world?

I made that comment on foot of your post alleging lads shouting down at you, kids and others adjacent to your school almost on a daily basis.

You made it appear so prevalent and common that I was just wondering what the other passer bys did considering all this whistling, noise, foul language, gesturing etc etc which you said happened almost on a regular basis for the entirety of your secondary school life.

I for no minute thought you would have had to tell others as I had visions of you attending school adjacent to Hill 16 on All Ireland Sunday it was that bad.
Sorry if I misread your post.

irishrebe

irishrebe wrote: »

That's the thing though. Contrary to what some posters think, it's not easy to tell age. I'm aware that when I was 11, I didn't look 11 because I was so tall and had gone through puberty already (not that harassing older children/teenagers is OK either). I imagine these idiots were thinking we were in our mid teens, and some of the lads doing it were probably 19 or 20 years old. I like to think that as disgraceful as they were, they didn't realise that some of us they were harassing were as young as 11 or 12, but maybe they did know? Maybe they didn't care. I have no idea.

Still scumbags for roaring anything to be honest, regardless of age. I always wonder what the end game is there. Ya whistle or holler or say “nice arse,love”. What’s the end game? The girl will find you so attractive and irresistible with your manly shouting and beer belly and will say “you.... you are the one I need to get with.” Has that tactic ever worked for anyone? Doubly so for people who do it in groups. “I’ll abandon my plans for the day and shack up with Tony the Labourer there instead”.

suicide_circus

Silentcorner wrote: »

I've already suggested a major one...allow a victim legal representation...

Allowing an independent expert in Sexual Assault to explain how victims can react to assaults...

Banning the parading of womens underwear in court...no reason not to allow the jury request if they feel it is neccessary....

How about you, any other suggestions to improve the deplorable conviction rate other than sticking our heads in the sand????

The state prosecutes cases! There is nothing to prevent the complainant from taking legal advice but you can't have private citizens prosecuting people for rape. The underwear thing is...well...unfortunate but it's a dangerous game to place limits on how a person can defend themselves of an accusation of serious crime. The reason that conviction rates are so low is that, unless there are witnesses or incontrovertible evidence, then it largely comes down to a he said/she said argument. The burden of proof is on the prosecution to establish guilt BEYOND ALL REASONABLE DOUBT. The legal principle Blackstone's Formulation is that;

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

NAGDEFI

neonsofa wrote: »

Stay with good friends.
And if the "good friend" happens to rape her?
Going by some posts if she happened to be drunk then she should have just taken more personal responsibility, but if she was sober then it's just tragic and personal responsibility doesn't come into it?

A girl with a group of female friends she's know for years would be safer surely?

Likewise many a fella pulled a mate back out of a tricky situation when drunk, fights etc.

optogirl

NAGDEFI wrote: »

There's a night out drinking and being totally unaware of your actions and possibly getting detached from your friends for a female. For a male you may become more aggressive with drink. We'd all like to think we can drink to our hearts galore but drink and drugs lower inhibitions, cause memory loss etc. I'm conservative in my views but i'm not apportioning blame to women or men.

In my opinion the day you wake up and can't remember the night before isn't good. For us all.

I agree that alcohol is a potent drug and we should all be more aware of that. However I still believe I can reasonably expect to go to a party, for example, and even spend time with men I don't know well and even be drunk and not be violated.

Bob_Marley

NAGDEFI wrote: »

There's a night out drinking and being totally unaware of your actions and possibly getting detached from your friends for a female. For a male you may become more aggressive with drink. We'd all like to think we can drink to our hearts galore but drink and drugs lower inhibitions, cause memory loss etc. I'm conservative in my views but i'm not apportioning blame to women or men.

In my opinion the day you wake up and can't remember the night before isn't good. For us all.

Yes, the root cause of this particular sorry sad mess of a case, where all the lives have been ruined by the unsocial media reporting of the case, is excessive consumption of alcohol, but you were instead endorsing the view of the troll that people can't get raped if they don't get drunk or go to celeb house parties, which is half witted rubbish.

NAGDEFI

irishrebe wrote: »

Some of the posters here are making men sound like monsters. We have to be on guard at all times. We can't go to a house with men at it without expecting them to rape us. What's wrong with people?

So i suppose it's cool to go wander into a house party when you know no one?

For Christ's sake we tell children never to accept lifts from strangers, be they male or female! I wouldn't head to a party of girls i didn't know. I wouldn't feel comfortable.

Worried Father

Worried Father wrote: »

If you get drunk around strange men and go back their houses on your own, your chances of being raped go up. It's not rocket science.

Although it’s technically true, that reads very grimly.

Silentcorner

The Talking Bread wrote: »

So what do you suggest that the jury should be instructed to do when making their decision, a decision based on the only evidence that they are privy to?

Should they lower the "reasonable doubt" bar to "if you have a small bit of doubt, convict them"

What are your suggestions?

I ask this in discussion mode, not attacking your opinions. Moreso inquisitive as to them.

(And to clarify again, the trial which we are discussing is in Northern Ireland, a different jurisdiction). Maybe use examples in this jurisdiction that back up your claims of misjustice in this regard.

I think Not Proven option could be an improvement...

I don't have all the answers...all I know is that the conviction rate needs to be increased...for everyone's sake...

What improvements do you think we should make?

irishrebe

Fann Linn wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

I honestly cannot believe that in 2018 we still have people asking why child victims of abuse didn't get adults involved. 'Why did you not tell anyone' is still the number 1 way to try to discredit a victim of abuse. Have people learned nothing from the countless scandals in Ireland and the rest of the world?

I made that comment on foot of your post alleging lads shouting down at you, kids and others adjacent to your school almost on a daily basis.

You made it appear so prevalent and common that I was just wondering what the other passer bys did considering all this whistling, noise, foul language, gesturing etc etc which you said happened almost on a regular basis for the entirety of your secondary school life.

I for no minute thought you would have had to tell others as I had visions of you attending school adjacent to Hill 16 on All Ireland Sunday it was that bad.
Sorry if I misread your post.

It was a rough area. Not at all uncommon to see people fighting, shouting, messing, whatever. At no point did I say it was adjacent to my school. I said it was near my house.

Silentcorner

Bob_Marley wrote: »

I don't know, but it's an excellent point, if those stats are true, there is something very seriously wrong with a justice system where 99.98 % of those who are suspected of committing rape in NI get off as not guilty.

And those are reported figures...we have no idea how many woman (in particular) choose not to go to the authorities....

How can we not look at ourselves...

Bob_Marley

Worried Father wrote: »

If you get drunk around strange men and go back their houses on your own, your chances of being raped go up. It's not rocket science.

Well sadly in most cases the victims of rape know the rapist.