The Alpha Male - does he really exist?

21Savage

bodice ripper wrote: »

Yeah, but any actual studies or data to back it up?

Studies :D:D:D

Open your eyes bro.

Irish Guitarist

I knew sooner or later someone would say "bro". You do the math.

Billy86

21Savage wrote: »

BTW female attraction is the yardstick for the alpha male. He might not slay but he'll punch above his weight and have a real broad on his arm. Probably finds it easy to move between women and they get hooked easy.
The powerful alpha male is the attractive one. Nobody will challenge their authority.

The problem with the argument though is someone doesn't need to be powerful or above reproach to get a fair bit of female attraction.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

21Savage

BTW this is what girls mean when they say they 'go for personality'. Strong alpha like qualities, they don't mean a guy who actually has interests(Try talking about history with 90 per cent of girls) All women want to be the side piece of the dominant guy in the room.

bodice ripper

21Savage wrote:

Studies

Open your eyes bro.

Yeah, I thought not.

Repsulive

Absolutely alpha males exist. If you are good looking and confident man you're at the top of the social hierarchy.

pitifulgod

mad muffin wrote: »

Donald trump is alpha

That's a great argument against the entire concept so.

qwerty ui op

Repsulive wrote: »

Absolutely alpha males exist. If you are good looking and confident man you're at the top of the social hierarchy.

What about age, money and family background

age- even decent looking guys don't get much attention from girls in late teens but by the time the reach late twenties they've much more luck.

money - what if the so called "alpha" in school doesn't get a good job and can't get on the property ladder and so on

family background- I often found that in school it was more guys from a troubled background took center stage and later on their troubles seemed to manifest .

This alpha male thing is rubbish, people who see other guys as an alpha male are usually too distant from him to see his troubles and insecurities

Richard Hillman

The dynamic of the alpha male has changed slightly but it is ridiculous to claim that groups do not have an alpha figure. Whether it be competing at sports between friends, general slagging, computer games, intelligence, whatever, males are always trying to compete against each other. Subconsciously it is to assert dominance over the other males.

Same with women, the preening, the cattiness, intelligence etc is all to assert their dominance over one another.

We are not living in some sort of socialist paradise. Competition exists, humans don't want to be equal. They want dominance. It is why socialism consistently fails.

wakka12

21Savage wrote: »

BTW this is what girls mean when they say they 'go for personality'. Strong alpha like qualities, they don't mean a guy who actually has interests(Try talking about history with 90 per cent of girls) All women want to be the side piece of the dominant guy in the room.

In my experience thats not true at all..and all my female friends go for different kinds of personalities. Most of my female friends seem to hate cocky guys. And actually being sweet nice guy seems to get you a lot of girls. Physical attractiveness does matter, a lot, but just form what I see girls seem to like guys who are attractive obviously but guys with nice/sweet/even kind of quiet get just as many girls as dominant or loud guys

qwerty ui op

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The dynamic of the alpha male has changed slightly but it is ridiculous to claim that groups do not have an alpha figure. Whether it be competing at sports between friends, general slagging, computer games, intelligence, whatever, males are always trying to compete against each other. Subconsciously it is to assert dominance over the other males.

Same with women, the preening, the cattiness, intelligence etc is all to assert their dominance over one another.

We are not living in some sort of socialist paradise. Competition exists, humans don't want to be equal. They want dominance. It is why socialism consistently fails.

I don't come on boards that often but would I be right in saying that 7 or 8 years ago this post would've ended with, and that's why God does/doesn't exist

RonanP77

Alpha males absolutely exist but they're few and far between. One guy I train with stands out as one. He's a big guy, strong as an ox, well educated, owns his own successful business and has natural authority.

I do alright and don't mind taking charge in certain situations but around guys like him I know I'm not top dog and that's alright with me.

Billy86

21Savage wrote: »

BTW this is what girls mean when they say they 'go for personality'. Strong alpha like qualities, they don't mean a guy who actually has interests(Try talking about history with 90 per cent of girls) All women want to be the side piece of the dominant guy in the room.

I'd definitely disagree with that, I actually had an attitude similar up to about 20/21 and it played a big part in my being utterly useless with women, but it turned out to be nonsense - a lot is down to body language (good posture, not slumping shoulders, feet not clinging together, not fidgeting, all stuff that shows nervousness), use of your voice and coming over confident on first impressions (a smile and eye contact can go a long way).

Mainly though, while it sounds cheesy as feck, but women that get chatted up a lot tend to prefer guys that can stimulate their mind rather than just trying to grind their cock on them, and that can make them laugh or challenge them in equal measure - and challenges are often well laid through humour. Conversation is foreplay for a lot of women, you can suss out a lot about each other (and each other's ahem "interests" and such) without having to talk explicitly about sex or even anything sexual. I'd have to agree too, it builds tension over a long period of time and has the added benefit of not having to feel pressure to be sexually aggressive*, or having to try some stupid chat up line (do these ever work on someone less than 12 drinks in!?!?). I'd say that I've been playing WAY above my league for the last number of years but the truth is there aren't really any leagues.

But of course that's just generally speaking on my experience, you're going to get all types with there being over 3.5bn on the planet - it's not as if fellas have some set personality type that they all go for over all else.

Repsulive

wakka12 wrote: »

In my experience thats not true at all..and all my female friends go for different kinds of personalities. Most of my female friends seem to hate cocky guys. And actually being sweet nice guy seems to get you a lot of girls. Physical attractiveness does matter, a lot, but just form what I see girls seem to like guys who are attractive obviously but guys with nice/sweet/even kind of quiet get just as many girls as dominant or loud guys

In know in Hollywood movies the 'sweet nice guy' always gets the girl in the end but reality is not like that. The Alpha will always get the most desirable women.

Debtocracy

I like the expression survival of the fittest but hate how it’s interpreted in modern society. It’s nothing to do with the strongest, fastest person, it’s how well a person fits their environment in order to reproduce. If evolution was survival of the strongest then why is your room teeming with bacteria?

At the current time, individuals from lower socio-economic and immigrant backgrounds seem to be out-reproducing the rest of society. They are the ‘fittest’ in our current environment yet they would be considered at the lower end of the dominance hierarchy.

The whole alpha male concept is a cultural phenomenon and especially irrelevant to Irish society. It's incredible to see how an Irish woman can tame a supposedly 'alpha male' in the context of a marriage.

Any alpha male can revert to a little boy if they’re put into a situation where they can’t cope. Those narcissist alpha males are especially vulnerable – if you need to constantly assert power and control all the time, what it this protecting against?

21Savage

qwerty ui op wrote: »

About one in twenty women are like this. this "girls go for bad guys" is about the most bull**** statement I've ever heard
The quietest man I know is known all over the country as a sports star and he uses this fame to bed a lot of women


That's only in the porn movies

You obviously have no idea. He's an alpha in a quiet way. That's actually a very alpha trait, knowing your power over women and bedding 'a lot' of them.
There is a story of a very handsome yet introverted non alpha footballer who despite having model looks was rumoured to be gay because of the lack of rumours or him bedding women, rumours of him standing awkwardly in clubs etc.

Billy86

Also the whole thing about quiet guys is wrong... there's a big difference between quiet and unconfident, and much like the "alpha = big, muscular guy with a sharp suit and shades still on at midnight = shows so much strength that women cannot resist". I spent my twenties working in sales and was around an abundance of the latter, by no means always but they are quite often masking a whole world of self doubt and insecurity so are trying to act out what they perceive as 'cool. Funny enough, often they're also not very good at selling stuff, just at trying to act like Alec Baldwin in Glen Garry Glenross and love their Boiler Room/Wolf of Wall Street quotes as well. Some of these lads can actually be quite nice underneath it all, but the mask they're putting on is something the vast majority of women see right through after their late teens/early twenties.

Meanwhile plenty of quiet guys are extremely confident, so much so that they don't feel any need to prove anything to those around them, they just go about their business and gain respect because of it. Those guys also tend to be really good at selling (and their sells not bouncing back!) because nobody likes being sold to, which is something most customers can pick up on immediately. In a clothes shop for example, when someone comes over and asks if you need help with anything, it's often very easy to tell straight away if they're just making themselves available or are getting ready to try pushing items on you.

And since men typically chase women, or initiate or escalate, there's a weird parallel between sales and men looking for women, in both instances you're really selling yourself first and foremost.

---

As for the thing about wakka's mate who's a sports star, I've not seen him in ages with being in and out of the country but an old mate of mine is an extremely prominent athlete in Ireland too and frequently has women hanging off of him (though he's got a girlfriend and he's a good boy there! ), but that's been the case since he was in his mid teens before he known by anyone as an athlete outside of his mates and teammates/coaches as being good at his sport. And the guy is very, very much the silent but confident type.

Noise and confidence are two very different things, basically.

21Savage

Billy86 wrote: »

Also the whole thing about quiet guys is wrong... there's a big difference between quiet and unconfident, and much like the "alpha = big, muscular guy with a sharp suit and shades still on at midnight = shows so much strength that women cannot resist". I spent my twenties working in sales and was around an abundance of the latter, by no means always but they are quite often masking a whole world of self doubt and insecurity so are trying to act out what they perceive as 'cool. Funny enough, often they're also not very good at selling stuff, just at trying to act like Alec Baldwin in Glen Garry Glenross and love their Boiler Room/Wolf of Wall Street quotes as well. Some of these lads can actually be quite nice underneath it all, but the mask they're putting on is something the vast majority of women see right through after their late teens/early twenties.

Meanwhile plenty of quiet guys are extremely confident, so much so that they don't feel any need to prove anything to those around them, they just go about their business and gain respect because of it. Those guys also tend to be really good at selling (and their sells not bouncing back!) because nobody likes being sold to, which is something most customers can pick up on immediately. In a clothes shop for example, when someone comes over and asks if you need help with anything, it's often very easy to tell straight away if they're just making themselves available or are getting ready to try pushing items on you.

And since men typically chase women, or initiate or escalate, there's a weird parallel between sales and men looking for women, in both instances you're really selling yourself first and foremost.

---

As for the thing about wakka's mate who's a sports star, I've not seen him in ages with being in and out of the country but an old mate of mine is an extremely prominent athlete in Ireland too and frequently has women hanging off of him (though he's got a girlfriend and he's a good boy there! ), but that's been the case since he was in his mid teens before he known by anyone as an athlete outside of his mates and teammates/coaches as being good at his sport. And the guy is very, very much the silent but confident type.

Noise and confidence are two very different things, basically.

LMAO, Oh I wonder why he has and has always had women hanging off him? But women don't like high status guys? Your friend was the equivalent of the archetype school football captain. He had INSANE local status. He's confident because he spent his whole life getting positive affirmation. Women will say he just has something about him but they can't put their finger on it.

You can be alpha and quiet, in fact I'd argue it's more of an alpha trait.

pitifulgod

21Savage wrote: »

You obviously have no idea. He's an alpha in a quiet way. That's actually a very alpha trait, knowing your power over women and bedding 'a lot' of them.
There is a story of a very handsome yet introverted non alpha footballer who despite having model looks was rumoured to be gay because of the lack of rumours or him bedding women, rumours of him standing awkwardly in clubs etc.

Out of interest, do you also subscribe to pick up artistry?

21Savage

pitifulgod wrote: »

Out of interest, do you also subscribe to pick up artistry?

Absolutely not. I was designed to be repellent to women. They don't like me, whatever. I don't trigger that feeling in them and I've got over it. If you can't attract women in a casual t-shirt while just engaging in a normal conversation with them then what's the point. As the poster above said if women find you attractive they will literally be hanging out of you. As the poster explained he's a 'good boy' with a GF so I'm going to assume he isn't playing these broads when he's talking to them. They are ACTIVELY moving in on him.

Billy86

21Savage wrote: »

LMAO, Oh I wonder why he has and has always had women hanging off him?

See this kind of attitude you're showing is the kind of thing that women tend to move away from, it's coming over as very insecure and needing to try and tear others down than thinking of how to build yourself up which is entirely counterproductive. And considering it's been the case since he was 14-15 in underage discos when he was as much a 'nobody' as everyone else in any given place, I don't know - maybe you could tell me? There's a reason I specifically pointed that out actually.

Funny enough if there's one guy who gets as much if not more attention with women down the years, it's another one of the lads who's exceptionally quiet (but again, confident as can be) and a tradesman. He's the nicest guy in the world which makes it even harder to hate the fact he just sits there with a nice smile on his face having the chats and winds up going home with a stunner as he pleases.

Giving it a bit of thought now, on average the quieter lads who also have confidence that I grew up with and know now do considerably better with women than the loud ones.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Thomas Scrawny Turf wrote: »

But it's bad that people buy into the simplistic view of being an alpha male. Leads to guys trying to assert themselves as top dog in every situation, trying to prove their masculinity - regardless of suitability or respect of their peers. Or leads to more basic dumb sh!t like aggressive driving.

.

Yeah, when I hear a man going on about it or witness behaviour like that it just reads as someone who's incredibly insecure in their masculinity. My mind just goes straight to bullying father, teeny peenie, that sort of thing.

21Savage

Billy86 wrote: »

See this kind of attitude you're showing is the kind of thing that women tend to move away from, it's coming over as very insecure and needing to try and tear others down than thinking of how to build yourself up which is entirely counterproductive. And considering it's been the case since he was 14-15 in underage discos when he was as much a 'nobody' as everyone else in any given place, I don't know - maybe you could tell me? There's a reason I specifically pointed that out actually.

Funny enough if there's one guy who gets as much if not more attention with women down the years, it's another one of the lads who's exceptionally quiet (but again, confident as can be) and a tradesman. He's the nicest guy in the world which makes it even harder to hate the fact he just sits there with a nice smile on his face having the chats and winds up going home with a stunner as he pleases.

Giving it a bit of thought now, on average the quieter lads who also have confidence that I grew up with and know now do considerably better with women than the loud ones.

I actually have a theory that men are born with something ingrained into them. It explains why certain guys even guys who aren't particularly good looking have and always will have their choice of women. They just have that energy. You can't learn this energy either. I would argue that that this enigmatic energy is one of the qualities of the alpha

One of my boys(Not Irish) is one of the most handsome guys I know, beautiful person as well. Not of this era though, he doesn't do well with broads I have another mate, who is a top geezer, kinda rugged but nowhere near as handsome as my other mate, engages in threesomes regularly. He's the alpha of our group. Surprise.

pitifulgod

21Savage wrote: »

Absolutely not. I was designed to be repellent to women. They don't like me, whatever. I don't trigger that feeling in them and I've got over it. If you can't attract women in a casual t-shirt while just engaging in a normal conversation with them then what's the point. As the poster above said if women find you attractive they will literally be hanging out of you. As the poster explained he's a 'good boy' with a GF so I'm going to assume he isn't playing these broads when he's talking to them. They are ACTIVELY moving in on him.

Thing is, one doesn't have to extraordinarily masculine or alpha or whatever to be attractive. Women don't all have the same type. The alpha male notion simply isn't particularly applicable to humans. Success is not predetermined based on this specific set of characteristics. If we're to go by evolutionary logic, purposes are served by a wide variety of traits and what you view as a weakness can be beneficial depending on context.

To use an example Eric Stonestreet from Modern Family was in a long term relationship with Charlize Theron. Stonestreet wouldn't fall under the category of an alpha male. Then in success terms for career for example, you'll probably get plenty of alpha male types in Wall Street but then throughout scientific areas, it'll simply vary from person to person.

It's a vague determine that ignore tonnes of other factors.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Are adults actually hanging out with their friends and one guy is the leader? Real grown up adults?

Billy86

21Savage wrote: »

I actually have a theory that men are born with something ingrained into them. It explains why certain guys even guys who aren't particularly good looking have and always will have their choice of women. They just have that energy. You can't learn this energy either. I would argue that that this enigmatic energy is one of the qualities of the alpha

One of my boys(Not Irish) is one of the most handsome guys I know, beautiful person as well. Not of this era though, he doesn't do well with broads I have another mate, who is a top geezer, kinda rugged but nowhere near as handsome as my other mate, engages in threesomes regularly. He's the alpha of our group. Surprise.

I'd disagree with that, I know it probably comes over a bit arrogant but or whatever but I've had great success on the woman front over the last 10 odd years when I figured out it's not to do with the whole stereotypes and whatnot over alpha, beta, etc... beforehand I was way too focused on that (though didn't have a phrase to put to it) and just used that as an excuse why it wasn't my fault I wasn't having any luck and shouldn't even try (bit of a vicious cycle for the confidence, that).

So, so much is body language too. Next time you're trying to chat a woman up... well first, don't chat her up just chat with her and be relaxed, willing to laugh at yourself but also willing to poke fun back at her if she does to you (playfully!! ). Secondly try stand with your feet roughly in line with your shoulders or just in a position that makes you feel comfortable, exercise good posture, focus on speaking from your diaphragm so as not to come over squeaky sounding, don't fidget... and don't chat her up. Just have a conversation and focus on enjoying yourself whether you get lucky or not. I can't tell you the wonders it's done me! Oh and grooming; ask women which they'd prefer: an ok looking guy with very good grooming and hygiene, or a very naturally good looking guy who's a slob that doesn't take care of himself at all. Doesn't have to be any crazy OTT stuff, just keeping clean, well kept, and in clothes/haircuts/etc you like and feel comfortable in.

I don't really look any different than I did 10-12 years ago but somehow my 'luck' has done a complete 180 - same hair cut, same height, same build, similar dress sense. I switched careers a few years back and am still building up experience there so not on any fancy kind of money at all. In terms of actual exterior changes I've, erm, picked up a bit of grey on the stubble if that helps somehow? And trust me, I'm a loooong way from the "alpha" stereotype; I'm on the quieter side, thin but not in great shape, mildly bipolar and dyspraxic. But I've not let that sh*t get in my way, so don't let yours get in yours!

Call Me Jimmy

I think to call it bull**** is a little too much, unless you want to go against the very idea of categorization. It's seems any generalizations about human behavior are verboten, or at least seem to make people feel defensive. We all know what were talking about when we hear the term 'alpha male', it's confidence, assertiveness, social intelligence, the person who people tend to follow in subtle ways. To say there isn't an exceptional person in these areas in nearly all groups of people is just not honest.

Now the whole PUA side of it is just the usual aping of a natural phenomenon using a simplistic understanding for monetary/short-term sexual gain. They promote hacks, and hacking your own personality will never lead to anything good imo. But to say there aren't outstanding males in the departments we all agree on just strikes me as self-deceit.

Billy86

Stella Stocky Watt wrote: »

Are adults actually hanging out with their friends and one guy is the leader? Real grown up adults?

My guess is he meant situations of "what will we do tonight?" followed by a bunch of different ideas/suggestions, some back and forward/light arguing, upon which someone wins out. I don't know that I won a single one of those arguments or even bothered to take place before I had success with women, and it's the same since I did have success. Probably because I'm fairly indifferent about venues etc anyway, so am grand to go out to wherever others want to.

Call me mad but if I could just get a woman's perspective, I'm reckoning that the whoever wins out from the 2-3 lads arguing about "I want to go here!" "No that's sh*te we need to go here instead" are not going to be coming across as some big, strong alpha dog that makes you go a little bit weak in the knees.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Billy86 wrote: »

Call me mad but if I could just get a woman's perspective, I'm reckoning that the whoever wins out from the 2-3 lads arguing about "I want to go here!" "No that's sh*te we need to go here instead" are not going to be coming across as some big, strong alpha dog that makes you go a little bit weak in the knees.

Never been drier in my life than reading this thread. I'm chafing.