why dont they move 'homeless' families out of Dublin to rural parts of Ireland?

Fann Linn

Hospitals, buses, trains, for starters.....

Spanish Eyes

If a person or family is not working, and hasn't for a few years now (Disability and illness excepted), would someone please tell me why they would be entitled to housing in Dublin, thus preventing those working and on the housing list from availing of same?

OK, they may have to get their children to and back from school, but there is a school bus scheme in rural areas right?

Shopping can be delivered.

How do people living in such areas survive? I know it could be a culture shock, but you can get used to anything, and who knows, they might actually like it!

Plenty of people who have no recourse to social housing or any other benefits have had to move far and away and commute back in.

My only gripe is the amount of affordable/social housing in Dublin that may be allocated to those who are not working/contributing to anything.

So kill me now!

end of the road

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I have lots of friends who ended up in places like Cavan, Laytown, Stamullen wherever the f*ck that is, Clonee etc, all from Dublin 5 area. They all commute to work.
Why should social housing recipients get to live in their desired area if people breaking their bollocks working can't?

why shouldn't they? people breaking their bollox means nothing in terms of this issue, those people made their choices, most people who aren't on the housing ladder didn't make the choice to be unable to afford a house due to their wage.
anyway, those on wellfare don't get to live in the area of their choice, most eventually take a house.

PistolsAtDawn wrote: »

I and many others like me had to leave my home county to get work, why can't these bums do the same. How is that unfair on them?

if they are bums then they are unemployable. it's not other's job to leave their area because you chose to, and that's what you did, chose to leave. if they get work that pays a good wage and that will allow them to have a good living standard in an area away from their area then they will leave anyway.

Deleted User wrote: »

I keep hearing this on boards as if having kids is a conscious choice

it's a crying after the horse has bolted statement also.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

they dont.....their situations are far worse than here.


number of rough sleepers -

London - 7,500
Paris - 30,000
Madrid - 700

Dublin - 184

and yet theres anarchy over the Dublin figures. if anything, it shows the government are actually doing a great job here to keep the numbers so low.

ireland has a small population, so the numbers are going to be low by default.

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree with that! this "homeless" issue has been blown way out of proportion, as is typical here, the bleeding heart brigade and RTE might do well to focus on bigger scandals, like the following. I have the largest amount of sympathy for workers being killed on rent or ridiculous property prices!

nothing is being blown out of proportion. people in ireland are always going to be concerned with ireland's homeless before somewhere like london for example. there is no "bleeding heart brigade" and RTE report the same news as the others and have reported on the property issue. sadly, we can't give over all airtime to the 1 issue, the news has to focus on a number of different issues.

screamer

Typical old attitude there..... Dublin outsourcing it's issues to de country.

pjohnson

topper75 wrote: »

You are forgetting that we have a min wage in this country by law. There is no job in Ireland that would see them unable to pay for the commute from affordable villages. Things would get tighter and luxuries would be foregone, but that is what economics is all about - prioritizing expenditure when resources are limited. Alternatively there would have to be a short period of transitional employment and they get work elsewhere.

It is just another excuse and the 'entitlement' culture has to end. If the state is paying the roof over your head then the state can put you wherever they might choose. If you insist on Dublin - fine - but YOU pay for Dublin.

So if the state puts them in Leitrim you wont be whinging over them being on the dole?

0ph0rce0

If someone offered me a house tomorrow down the country for a few quid each week. Even a little 1/2 room bungalow I'd be gone in a shot.

Bit of dole every week, Bit of fuel allowance to keep the gaff warm.

Grow some grub in the garden, No city noise. Enough for a few pints in the village pub.

Sounds like heaven.



I work my bollocks off for my kids so one can only dream

Maybe when I'm 67/68 or whatever age retirement is these days.

end of the road

TallGlass wrote: »

Building up is a good idea but not a solution.

And it isn't just people/families refusing to go down the country, it's people refusing to move either side of the River Liffy within Dublin.

What's to say, the same people won't just refuse an apartment, because they want a house and a garden for the 10 children.

like currently, they will go down to the bottom of the list, and someone else will take the property

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't quite get that logic.

Building up would mean more accommodation options for people. Different price ranges on apartments would cater for different incomes. Building up would decrease the demand for accommodation and therefore the rental market rates would drop as demand drops except in areas which are highly sought after. Building up would also lessen the problem of parking since apartment buildings would have parking areas below the main complex.



They probably will. Which is why we need a better screening for those who are genuinely homeless versus those looking to game the system. Those gaming the system should be forced to accept what is offered to them, and if they want better, they can work/save like the rest of us.

Those gaming the system would be unemployable so there would be nowhere for them to work. no point in them saving either as no bank will touch them for a mortgage and rightly so.

splinter65 wrote: »

Why is asking people who are not in a position to currently put a roof over their kids heads to move a couple of hundred miles an extreme suggestion?
They’re not in Texas and being asked to move to Alaska.
It’s only going to be temporary while the Dublin housing crisis is ongoing.

because we will either have to spend billions to bring services up to scratch, or we will end up with dumping grounds which will cost us billions. if this idea was viable then it would have been done.

topper75 wrote: »

You are forgetting that we have a min wage in this country by law. There is no job in Ireland that would see them unable to pay for the commute from affordable villages. Things would get tighter and luxuries would be foregone, but that is what economics is all about - prioritizing expenditure when resources are limited. Alternatively there would have to be a short period of transitional employment and they get work elsewhere.

It is just another excuse and the 'entitlement' culture has to end. If the state is paying the roof over your head then the state can put you wherever they might choose. If you insist on Dublin - fine - but YOU pay for Dublin.

there is no such thing as an excuse in relation to the issue of people being moved from areas near their work, to places way away, which in turn will cost them a hell of a lot to go to their work. it is nothing to do with the entitlement culture, which is blown way out of proportion. minimum wage jobs would see people being unable to pay for the commute from so-called "affordible" villages to dublin, if those villages are very far away. no amount of removing luxuries or prioritizing expenditure would change that reality. them having to get work elsewhere clearly isn't viable otherwise they would have done that. dumping those in dublin who don't have a house to the rest of the country is not viable and i as a tax payer don't want to fund the innevitable cost increases for this proposal if it was ever to happen.

splinter65

Fann Linn wrote: »

Hospitals, buses, trains, for starters.....

There are hospitals in the country, buses, trains, what are you talking about?

end of the road

Gatling wrote: »

They do it in London quite well ,you live in emergency accommodation or are homeless the council find you a property in a cheaper area ,you get keys and or a train,bus tickets likely In another county and you either accept there and then or they discharge you from their duty care and your off the housing list ,

that system is about getting the poor and undesirables out of london. nothing else. social cleansing effectively. it has increased the wellfare bill, and other costs hugely, which surpass the costs of simply housing in london.

Deleted User wrote: »

What are these services that Dublin has that the rest of the country doesn't have? How are Dublin services so superior?


Long distance? If we were talking about 200 miles away, I might agree with you. But most of the examples for people being moved to are within 60-80 miles from Dublin.

Considering the money currently being spent on them, it would be perfectly feasible to offer commuting discounts for rail services if they don't have access to their own car.

I do find it interesting though. My sister is commuting every morning from Athlone to Galway on the train (her husband drives her to the station from where they live outside town). Nobody is screaming about how such a commute is expensive or long distance for her... is that just because she's got a decent job and pays a mortgage?



Specifics. I'd love to know all these special services that Dublin has, that cannot be found elsewhere.

job opportunities, frequent public transport, and all other services that a modern country would have, which barely exist in many places outside dublin. 60 to 80 miles is still costly if you are on a minimum wage job.
the money being spent on them now couldn't be reduced by moving them outside dublin as there would be other costs which would remove any supposed savings very quick. so there would be no scope for commuting discounts unless we are setting up a new scheme and putting in lots of funding on top of what is already given to public transport operators. if she has a decent job and pays a mortgage, chances are the costs are more affordible to her, then the people we are talking about, who are often on minimum wage. plenty of people complain about the commuting costs, however obviously they find that living elsewhere brings them a better standard of life and works for them.

Fann Linn wrote: »

Hospitals, buses, trains, for starters.....

school bus scheme costs a good bit of money. shopping delivery costs money. if they would like it, chances are they have moved already. other people having to move (actually they chose to move) doesn't justify others being forced to move and the cost increases which would likely be passed on to me.

pjohnson

splinter65 wrote: »

There are hospitals in the country, buses, trains, what are you talking about?

Do you think everywhere outside of Dublin is "country"?

Fann Linn

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

If a person or family is not working, and hasn't for a few years now (Disability and illness excepted), would someone please tell me why they would be entitled to housing in Dublin, thus preventing those working and on the housing list from availing of same?

OK, they may have to get their children to and back from school, but there is a school bus scheme in rural areas right?

Shopping can be delivered.

How do people living in such areas survive? I know it could be a culture shock, but you can get used to anything, and who knows, they might actually like it!

Plenty of people who have no recourse to social housing or any other benefits have had to move far and away and commute back in.

My only gripe is the amount of affordable/social housing in Dublin that may be allocated to those who are not working/contributing to anything.

So kill me now!

If- these homeless are going to be shifted to rural areas, for a start they won't be going to places such as Galway, Athlone, Limerick or Cork. They would be housed in villages such as Bellanagare, Frenchpark, Cloonfad and such like. Places with: No Jobs, very limited public transport, very little medical centres etc, possibly one or two shops, no Garda stations, no taxi services, possibly 10/15 miles from nearest shopping centres.

Most of these villages have only a church, national school, couple of pubs and a GAA club that finds it difficult to field teams as their own indigenous population has gone to Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick in the first place for work they could not secure themselves at home.

splinter65

pjohnson wrote: »

So if the state puts them in Leitrim you wont be whinging over them being on the dole?

There are people who can’t or won’t work in every country in the world .
Here SW is very generous and that’s fine, the rest of us can carry this.
What we shouldn’t have to carry is people picking and choosing where they will and won’t accept the roof we are offering them, and being housed in hotels at an extra cost of 1000s per week because no one in authority has the bells to tell them to take it I leave it.

Gatling

end of the road wrote: »

dublin among other cities do have the services best placed to help these people and actual opportunities, which is ultimately why these people need to stay there.

That's wrong ,

"They need to stay here " but everyone else has to up sticks and move to be able to afford roof over their heads

robertpatterson

end of the road wrote: »

why shouldn't they? people breaking their bollox means nothing in terms of this issue, those people made their choices, most people who aren't on the housing ladder didn't make the choice to be unable to afford a house due to their wage.
anyway, those on wellfare don't get to live in the area of their choice, most eventually take a house.



if they are bums then they are unemployable. it's not other's job to leave their area because you chose to, and that's what you did, chose to leave. if they get work that pays a good wage and that will allow them to have a good living standard in an area away from their area then they will leave anyway.



it's a crying after the horse has bolted statement also.



ireland has a small population, so the numbers are going to be low by default.



nothing is being blown out of proportion. people in ireland are always going to be concerned with ireland's homeless before somewhere like london for example. there is no "bleeding heart brigade" and RTE report the same news as the others and have reported on the property issue. sadly, we can't give over all airtime to the 1 issue, the news has to focus on a number of different issues.

If only there was a thumbs down or unthank button I'd be worn out pressing it in relation to this post

Dr Crayfish

pjohnson wrote: »

Do you think everywhere outside of Dublin is "country"?

Yes that’s how a lot of us dubs refer to anywhere outside of Dublin

Fann Linn

splinter65 wrote: »

There are hospitals in the country, buses, trains, what are you talking about?

I live in the country Splints, my nearest hospital is either 40 miles west to Galway or 40 miles up to Sligo. I have a car, the crowd coming from Dublin wont. Theres no doctors in some villages or towns, the nearest train station is about 25 miles away, my wife, who doesnt drive has the choice of 1 bus early in the morning to take her to Galway via every nook or cranny on an OS map.

Spanish Eyes

Fann Linn wrote: »

If- these homeless are going to be shifted to rural areas, for a start they won't be going to places such as Galway, Athlone, Limerick or Cork. They would be housed in villages such as Bellanagare, Frenchpark, Cloonfad and such like. Places with: No Jobs, very limited public transport, very little medical centres etc, possibly one or two shops, no Garda stations, no taxi services, possibly 10/15 miles from nearest shopping centres.

Most of these villages have only a church, national school, couple of pubs and a GAA club that finds it difficult to field teams as their own indigenous population has gone to Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick in the first place for work they could not secure themselves at home.

So you are saying that people who actually live in these places already are deprived?

I don't think so. Social supports in this country are actually quite generous.

The no jobs issue will not apply, if a Dublin family has not bothered to work will it?

People have to adapt. Those commuting from afar because they cannot afford to live in Dublin for example. But at least they are working and contributing.

I just do not understand this babying of people. A house, income from DSP, kids taken to school by bus, shopping can be delivered.

What exactly is your point?

Spanish Eyes

Fann Linn wrote: »

I live in the country Splints, my nearest hospital is either 40 miles west to Galway or 40 miles up to Sligo. I have a car, the crowd coming from Dublin wont. Theres no doctors in some villages or towns, the nearest train station is about 25 miles away, my wife, who doesnt drive has the choice of 1 bus early in the morning to take her to Galway via every nook or cranny on an OS map.

I don't think the global comment about "the crowd from Dublin won't have a car" is real. Most people do nowadays, and if they don't there are alternatives, like place them in a town with transport connections. I am sure there are many places down the country that are not as isolated as you seem to be.

Move to Dublin then if you don't like it where you are, although I'd safely say you love it. Seems like it is your choice to live in the sticks. Don't moan, give it a bit of welly and big it up. There are lots of advantages to living outside the Pale. But you possibly would balk at "blow ins"

Fann Linn

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

So you are saying that people who actually live in these places already are deprived?

I don't think so. Social supports in this country are actually quite generous.

The no jobs issue will not apply, if a Dublin family has not bothered to work will it?

People have to adapt. Those commuting from afar because they cannot afford to live in Dublin for example. But at least they are working and contributing.

I just do not understand this babying of people. A house, income from DSP, kids taken to school by bus, shopping can be delivered.

What exactly is your point?

Yes. I am saying there are very poor social supports in these areas. Dr. Greg Kelly, prominent gp in Castlerea has been on the media many times regarding same. The fact its not aired on RTE however means it doesnt exist.

Only up until recently if you needed a garda in Boyle you were transferred to Castlerea . Ballaghaderreen only had its Garda stn kept open 24 hours and money pumped in because the refugees were housed there, and I still dont know if Castlerea has a fire station back despite it been closed for most of last year even during all those bpg and forest fires.

Birdie Num Num

screamer wrote: »

Typical old attitude there..... Dublin outsourcing it's issues to de country.

Care to give some examples?

jimmycrackcorm

There is a significant group of homeless SW people who are largely lifers. These should be targeted for cheaper built rural housing than given expensive homes in Dublin in deference to low paid workers families

MagicIRL wrote:

Because that's how you get ghettos.
You don't want ghettos.

Riskymove wrote:

and Ballymun Towers really worked out well didn't it

Riskymove wrote:

Large scale high rise blocks of Social Housing will lead to ghettoisation - that is what they learned

It's not the buildings that causes the ghettos. It's certain people living in them. So create a policy to remove those that indulge in the behaviour that causes it. The residents themselves could determine who is causing issues and empowered to vote out the troublemakers.

screamer wrote:

Typical old attitude there..... Dublin outsourcing it's issues to de country.

Apart from the many culchies moving to Dublin for work to be fair to return the favour, Dublin basically subsidises the rest of the country financially.

Idbatterim

Fann Linn wrote: »

Hospitals, buses, trains, for starters.....

all of irelands other towns have these, cork, limerick, waterford, galway...

It's not the buildings that causes the ghettos. It's certain people living in them. So create a policy to remove those that indulge in the behaviour that causes it. The residents themselves could determine who is causing issues and empowered to vote out the troublemakers.

exactly! another 23 floor building is being built on sir john rogersons quay, amazing views etc, its going to be a prestige apartment block to live it, unlike ballymun, but again, I am sure it is all the buildings fault! LOL

Fann Linn

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I don't think the global comment about "the crowd from Dublin won't have a car" is real. Most people do nowadays, and if they don't there are alternatives, like place them in a town with transport connections. I am sure there are many places down the country that are not as isolated as you seem to be.

Move to Dublin then if you don't like it where you are, although I'd safely say you love it. Seems like it is your choice to live in the sticks. Don't moan, give it a bit of welly and big it up. There are lots of advantages to living outside the Pale. But you possibly would balk at "blow ins"

Im not complaining. I do love it. Ive a good pensionable job. However, I have 4 kids, all working, who had to move to Dublin and Galway because there are no jobs here.

pjohnson

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Yes that’s how a lot of us dubs refer to anywhere outside of Dublin

That explains a lot of this thread then

Fann Linn wrote: »

I live in the country Splints, my nearest hospital is either 40 miles west to Galway or 40 miles up to Sligo. I have a car, the crowd coming from Dublin wont. Theres no doctors in some villages or towns, the nearest train station is about 25 miles away, my wife, who doesnt drive has the choice of 1 bus early in the morning to take her to Galway via every nook or cranny on an OS map.

This is the reality in the actual country.

Fann Linn

Fann Linn wrote: »

Hospitals, buses, trains, for starters.....

You really don't leave Dublin much do you?

end of the road wrote: »

Those gaming the system would be unemployable so there would be nowhere for them to work. no point in them saving either as no bank will touch them for a mortgage and rightly so.

That is interesting because while there have been claims here that those gaming the system (or classed as homeless) are unemployed and/or on welfare, nobody has produced any evidence to support it.

And even if we were to believe that they are indeed on welfare, that's still a far cry from proving that they're unemployable... since if they're gaming one system, they could easily be gaming the second system too.

And lastly, there are/were plenty of people on welfare in the countryside who were able to rent a property. Buying is for people who can afford it.

because we will either have to spend billions to bring services up to scratch, or we will end up with dumping grounds which will cost us billions. if this idea was viable then it would have been done.

What exactly needs billions to be brought up to scratch? What are these services that are missing or inadequate?

I'm also curious why it's good enough for the rest of the country but not good enough for a few thousand "homeless" Dubliners?

end of the road wrote: »

job opportunities, frequent public transport, and all other services that a modern country would have, which barely exist in many places outside dublin. 60 to 80 miles is still costly if you are on a minimum wage job.

With Smaller towns, there's less need for public transport internally, and I can get a bus to Dublin on the hour every hour.

Job opportunities, sure. But the rest of us manage to survive... and let's assume your earlier remark that they're already unemployed is accurate, then job opportunities wouldn't be such an issue since they're already on welfare.

Snipped

school bus scheme costs a good bit of money. shopping delivery costs money. if they would like it, chances are they have moved already. other people having to move (actually they chose to move) doesn't justify others being forced to move and the cost increases which would likely be passed on to me.

School bus schemes? Check. Shopping delivery? Check. Although, that person could get off their fat ass and walk the 2 miles to shop, and get a bus back part of the way.

I really don't know who is worse. The people with this sense of entitlement or the people who defend/encourage that sense of entitlement. :rolleyes:

nice_guy80

people on the dole spend money too!!
in fact, they probably spend more of their money locally.
eg shops, pubs

so, moving people on social welfare down to rural areas mightn't be all bad.

nice_guy80

Deleted User wrote: »

You really don't leave Dublin much do you?



That is interesting because while there have been claims here that those gaming the system (or classed as homeless) are unemployed and/or on welfare, nobody has produced any evidence to support it.

And even if we were to believe that they are indeed on welfare, that's still a far cry from proving that they're unemployable... since if they're gaming one system, they could easily be gaming the second system too.

And lastly, there are/were plenty of people on welfare in the countryside who were able to rent a property. Buying is for people who can afford it.



What exactly needs billions to be brought up to scratch? What are these services that are missing or inadequate?

I'm also curious why it's good enough for the rest of the country but not good enough for a few thousand "homeless" Dubliners?



With Smaller towns, there's less need for public transport internally, and I can get a bus to Dublin on the hour every hour.

Job opportunities, sure. But the rest of us manage to survive... and let's assume your earlier remark that they're already unemployed is accurate, then job opportunities wouldn't be such an issue since they're already on welfare.





School bus schemes? Check. Shopping delivery? Check. Although, that person could get off their fat ass and walk the 2 miles to shop, and get a bus back part of the way.

I really don't know who is worse. The people with this sense of entitlement or the people who defend/encourage that sense of entitlement. :rolleyes:

school bus scheme is not free in rural Ireland
you have to pay for it.
however, most rural villages have schools. buses are not required.

lets take a small rural village in Longford. eg Abbeylara.
houses available? check
school needs more pupils? check
small village shop? check
village pub? check
sports facilities - check
bigger town nearby with larger supermarket? Granard - check
public transport to Dublin if needed - Longford - check.

Fann Linn

Fann Linn wrote: »

If- these homeless are going to be shifted to rural areas, for a start they won't be going to places such as Galway, Athlone, Limerick or Cork. They would be housed in villages such as Bellanagare, Frenchpark, Cloonfad and such like. Places with: No Jobs, very limited public transport, very little medical centres etc, possibly one or two shops, no Garda stations, no taxi services, possibly 10/15 miles from nearest shopping centres.

Most of these villages have only a church, national school, couple of pubs and a GAA club that finds it difficult to field teams as their own indigenous population has gone to Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick in the first place for work they could not secure themselves at home.

Why wouldn't they be going to the larger towns in Ireland?

screamer

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

There is a significant group of homeless SW people who are largely lifers. These should be targeted for cheaper built rural housing than given expensive homes in Dublin in deference to low paid workers families

MagicIRL wrote:

Because that's how you get ghettos.
You don't want ghettos.

Riskymove wrote:

and Ballymun Towers really worked out well didn't it

Riskymove wrote:

Large scale high rise blocks of Social Housing will lead to ghettoisation - that is what they learned

It's not the buildings that causes the ghettos. It's certain people living in them. So create a policy to remove those that indulge in the behaviour that causes it. The residents themselves could determine who is causing issues and empowered to vote out the troublemakers.

screamer wrote:

Typical old attitude there..... Dublin outsourcing it's issues to de country.

Apart from the many culchies moving to Dublin for work to be fair to return the favour, Dublin basically subsidises the rest of the country financially.

Ah see culchies moving TO WORK in Dublin. You can keep your work shy scroungers we've enough of them already.
And Dublin may be booming but the rest of the country suffers because of it.... But sure as long as your bubble isn't bust it's grand.....

nice_guy80

nice_guy80 wrote: »

school bus scheme is not free in rural Ireland
you have to pay for it.

Oh. Shock! Horror! The injustice of it all! Just Imagine... having to pay.

The service is there. Bloody hell.