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Compulsory HCAP - Cancelled

Grizzly 45

Picked this up on an FB page from a local group of Munster deer hunters.So treat this as TOTALLY UNCONFIRMED..

As we know the newbies applying for a deer license for Jan 2018 season, will be required to do the HCAP or similar to be considered for a deer hunting license, and the rest of us will apparently have to do the HCAP within a fixed date within the next five years or so.This will be decided apparently by some sort of lottery system applied by NPWS. Don't do the HCAP within a certain timeframe, no deer hunting license for you lad/lady!

Considering this is coming from a state body that has been caught out on makey up law on things like; No Semi-autos are legal for deer hunting, You need 100 acres plus for a license, and .223 is perfectly legal for deer hunting here... You gotta ask is this legit or even plausible.The lad who posted this "claims" to have written an email to the dept and was informed that it's the ministers intent and will to follow this thru on a recommendation of the deer interest groups.:(: mad:

So , has anyone had this blip on their radar ?Or anything of the like? Can we get confirmation or denial of hostile intent?Going by my experience this year, I'd say the hostile intent is very possible, if not plausible.And if so, can we mount a campagin against this before January?

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Walter Mittys Brother

Considering they were inquiring on this years app form about qualifications it would make sense. If you declare no qualification your name goes into the draw.

Has this come through FCP? Safe to assume all the other groups will be getting their money making schemes ratified too so. They'll all back each other on each others schemes.

The sky if falling, the sky is falling

Cass

This is the very thing we spoke about on this thread.

Like i've pointed out on previous threads, and as you said yourself Grizz, unless there is legislation to support any changes then they are not legal and don't have to be adhered to.

Problem is this is another example of proposals being issued by a group with a singular concern and no regard for other interests. They cannot combat poaching and think banning shooting or making it so regulated as to effectively ban it will solve their problems. Raises a few issues:

Why have we all the laws we have if they cannot or will not enforce them?
How will further legislation cause any changes as those breaking the current laws will continue to do so?
Its not legal unless legislation is in place, which there currently is none.

Grizzly 45

I agree with this Cass,but I'm just wondering are we missing something in either wildlife acts 1976 or 2000, that allows the minister such powers??Because they seem intent to bull this thru no matter what.

grassroot1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I agree with this Cass,but I'm just wondering are we missing something in either wildlife acts 1976 or 2000, that allows the minister such powers??Because they seem intent to bull this thru no matter what.

Of course they are
1. Jobs for the boys
2. The elite stopping an ordinary Joe from getting into stalking

gunny123

grassroot1 wrote: »

Of course they are

2. The elite stopping an ordinary Joe from getting into stalking

I've seen this first hand, people connected (with the deer org's) paying silly money for leases, either on public or private lands, just to get rid of the lad shooting it.

If thats the way its going to go, they can stuff it.

wexfordman2

gunny123 wrote: »

I've seen this first hand, people connected (with the deer org's) paying silly money for leases, either on public or private lands, just to get rid of the lad shooting it.

If thats the way its going to go, they can stuff it.

How do you get a hcap without first having a deer licence ? A lot of supers won't give you a deer calibre rifle without having a deer licence and you need the rifle to get the hcap

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I agree with this Cass,but I'm just wondering are we missing something in either wildlife acts 1976 or 2000, that allows the minister such powers??Because they seem intent to bull this thru no matter what.

Like the NPWS don't assume the DoJ/Minister's office is infallible.

When discussing a possible ban on semi auto after the so called coalition's proposals she said no compensation would be needed. She did not understand the difference between ownership and licensing.

IOW her office could legislate to remove the ability to license the firearm hence take it out of our hands/use, but it's still our property. As i said before it's like being banned from driving. They can take away your driver's license, but the car is still your property.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

How do you get a hcap without first having a deer licence ? A lot of supers won't give you a deer calibre rifle without having a deer licence and you need the rifle to get the hcap

One of many good questions, and much like the introduction of the trained hunter course it was done immediately without any network or platform to provide said courses. They left it up to whomever wanted to apply to run them. So far that is only one group however as said above if this were to become mandatory you'd see schools of excellence and training courses popping up with massive fees because unlike a voluntary course this must be done.

ezra_

Got this from the country side alliance mailshot this morning:

MANDATORY CERTIFICATION FOR DEER HUNTERS FROM 1st JANUARY 2018
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Tuesday, 31 October 2017
With effect from 1st January 2018, all first-time applicants for a Deer Hunting Licence (DHL) in the Republic of Ireland will be required to be certified as competent in knowledge of deer, including aspects such as hunting regulations and the law, under the provisions of the Deer Alliance Hunter Competence Assessment Programme (HCAP) or equivalent, before being issued with a DHL.
This applies whether their application is based on State forestry or on private land.

All hunters already holding a DHL as at 31st December 2017 will have a period of grace extending for five years to 31st December 2022 to become certified but from that date they too will require to be certified as competent.
HCAP was introduced in 2005 as a requirement for hunters on Coillte forest property but will now extend to private land. This follows a recommendation from the Irish Deer Management Forum to government, and some forty years of lobbying for mandatory testing and certification by the different deer organisations in Ireland.
The Deer Alliance Hunter Competence Assessment Programme is the only approved certification process in Ireland, covering the legislative and regulatory framework for deer hunting in Ireland.
There are currently approximately 4900 holders of the DHL in Ireland, of whom approximately half are already HCAP-Certified. Over the last three years, there have been approximately 600 new entrants to deer stalking each year, with only 200 retirements each year. In anticipation of a significant increase in applications in 2018, Deer Alliance will run a series of twelve Multiple Choice Question (MCQ) written assessments in 2018, supported by six Range Tests.
The full schedule will shortly be available on the News & Updates section of the Deer Alliance website, www.deeralliance.ie.
All applications will be handled on a first-come, first-served basis. All intending applicants are urged to apply in a timely fashion, and existing holders of the DHL in particular are urged not to leave it until the end of the five-year grace period to make application as they are unlikely to be facilitated in time to make the deadline. Application and payment can be made online through the Deer Alliance website.
The cost of HCAP remains €150.00, to include written assessment (MCQ) and Range Test.

gunny123

Who are the irish deer management forum when they are at home ?

Gleefulprinter

Seems to be farmer reps and gov reps. 2 members from deer control.
Googled it. Bloody joke of a thing.

ezra_

gunny123 wrote: »

Who are the irish deer management forum when they are at home ?

Their website suggests they are the people who actually run / administer the HCAP course

From their website:

About Deer Alliance.

The Deer Alliance was formed in 2003 in response to Coillte Teoranta's decision to seek a system of independent certification for persons hunting wild deer on Coillte forest property. The Alliance comprises the four leading Irish deer organisations – The Irish Deer Society, The Wild Deer Association of Ireland, Wicklow Deer Management & Conservation Group and the Wicklow Deer Society. These four organisations accepted the challenge to come up with a formula for a credible and independent assessment and certification model early in 2003. There followed almost a year of comparative study and assessment of different models used nationally and internationally, culminating in the decision to adopt the system of assessment now represented by the Hunter Competence Assessment Programme – or HCAP.

ganmo

gunny123 wrote: »

Who are the irish deer management forum when they are at home ?

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/forestry/deermanagement/IrishDeerManageForum1st151215.pdf

Grizzly 45

Ok, so this is now obviously a clear and present danger, seeing that they state it is on private land as well.HCAP has crept out of the Coilte lets and is after your wallet..So whats to be done?? One thing I can think of is someone needs to start an alternative course, as they hold a monopoly on this license.

Walter Mittys Brother

Any thoughts I had of looking for a deer permit are gone now. I'm not paying to do courses just so some gits can make money from me!

It won't be long before the rest of us have to do likewise so :eek::mad::mad:

Grizzly 45

Don't be surprised, if we start seeing them eyeing up winged game hunters as well in the future...I won't be.

dto001

A few things I would like to know is that as far as I know (open to correction) but don't all private bodies have to tender for government jobs was this tendered for? Will this money be paid back to the state? and where is the competition as this is the usual money grabbers trying to muscle out the small boys. I shoot on maximum 8 deer a year for meat not for sale etc. and if we all do this will we still have to apply every year with the same crap that happens now?
And will they next say we will have to do the meat handling course?

Grizzly 45

Correctomundo as The Fonz used to say.. HCAP was designed and was an insurance sop for Coilte, and that's all it is/was.Now,it's coming out of the state forest it is now going to have to tender, and the govt will have to put out to tender for this as well.Think some questions need to be raised in the Dail and by our organisations about this..When they are not infighting and at each other's throats that is...:rolleyes:

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

.So whats to be done?? .

My first thought is the legality of this.

The HCAP is a Coilte invention. The Deer Alliance are a private body, and the NPWS don't legislate.

So why do i need a Coilte invention on private land?
What licensing/authority/qualifications have the Deer Alliance outside of Coilte lands?
Where is the legislation to give the NPWS authority to refuse me a deer license without a course?

Remember the NPWS, as Grizz pointed out above, are the ones that have introduced, or tried to, all kids of their own laws like:

223 deer legal
220 Swift not legal
22-250 not legal
100 acres minimum
etc.

Is this another case of them doing something off their own bat, but with no legal basis. If so they've sorely overstepped their authority.

This is the same crowd that called for night time Shooting ban along with the so called coalition. We were told this would never happen, so as also said above watch out for Ducks, Pheasants, foxes at night.

Pretty soon you won't be able to shoot sh*t without 19 forms, filled otu in triplicate, sent in, returned, lost, found, stamped and then by the time you get it the season for shooting has closed. However you'll still have had to pay a right sum for it.

Lastly the Deer alliance crowd. €150 per head for the HCAP. With some 2,500+ still to do it, and prety soon a trained hunter course. Well that adds up to, working with current number and no allowance for new DHL holders. :

€375,000 in HCAP fees
€1,100,000 in trained hunter fees

Not counting books, food, and other expenses i don't see listed. So who gets the nearly €1,500,000 over the next 5 years? Some private group made up of normal deer hunter (Deer Alliance is no different to the WDAI, or Irish Deer Society in terms of status), the NPWS (so much for it just being about preserving the species), or the Dept of A.H.R.GA?

Time for some E-mails to the NPWS asking the above questions.

Then to the Department of Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs as they oversee the NPWS.

Then to the DoJ asking them under what authority/legsilation the NPWS mean to stop me using my firearm on private grounds for which i was issued a license (firearms).

cavan shooter

I got this as an e mail from Countryside alliance, so dont think its a rumour anymore:

http://countrysideallianceireland.org/ie/shooting/mandatory-certification-for-deer-hunters-from-1st-january-2018?utm_campaign=197068_MANDATORY%20CERTIFICATION%20FOR%20DEER%20HUNTERS%20FROM%201st%20JANUARY%202018&utm_medium=dotmailer&utm_source=Countryside%20Alliance&dm_i=44G9,4824,1MJ8JH,GGJ8,1

meathstevie

At the moment there is as far as I can see no legislation supporting the mandatory passing of an exam to obtain a hunting licence. The only thing that's there is that the minister can impose conditions and issue the open season orders.

If we all need to pass an exam I suggest that the minister publishes an invitation to tender with the conditions attached very swiftly. If this is supposed to start in eight weeks it'll have to be done at the speed of light. Since this will involve amounts of money far in excess of the threshold to not go public it's actually already impossible to start this from January 2018.

For the amount of dough involved I can well imagine that BASC for example would be quite keen on sending over a few reps to run their stalker course and qualification tests.

Grizzly 45

Fact...Should strike while the iron is hot..some phone calls and emails en masse are required again..Yes, it is a PITFA to have to do this yet again.But compared to putting 250 euros in someone's pocket without seeing one red cent of it going back into the sport..I'd rather burn it on my phone and internet bill thanks very much...

dto001

Does anyone have the relevant email addresses?

gunny123

Do the deer poachers have to pass this exam too ?

Grizzly 45

Minister for arts, culture, Gaeltacht,[nature&stuff:P]-heather.humphreys@oir.ie

Constituency Offices
Unit 2, Mall Road,
Co.Monaghan,
Ireland.
Eircode: H18 X282
Tel: 047-71911 || Fax: 047-71912
E-mail: heather.humphreys@oir.ie
79 Market Street,
Cootehill,
Co. Cavan,
Ireland.
Eircode: H16 E681
Tel: (049) 555 5501

NPWS liscensing
Email: wildlifelicence@ahg.gov.ie
Tel: (01) 888 3298 or (01) 888 3275 or (01) 888 3249

Deer Alliance,
P.O. Box 1,
Borris,
Co. Carlow.

Phone Number 086 1927 845
Email Address deeralliance@gmail.com
Email Address www.deeralliance.ie

Just noticed something about the deer alliance...NO DATA PROTECTION NOTICE OR STATEMENT ON PRIVACY on their website.Handling personal information, and what they do with it naughty, naughty.They don't seem to come up as a regd entity with the Data protection office website either?

WDAI
:+353 (0)87 2496987
Email: wilddeerireland@gmail.com Facebook and Twitter accounts as well.

Cass

I was looking at some comments elsewhere and i find it, well i won't say surprising, interesting that some see this as unimportant, not a problem, and a tiny few think it's a good idea. It got me thinking. I wonder if those thinking it's alright have considered this. Bear with me:

2018 - Mandatory HCAP
2019 - Mandatory trained hunter course
2019 - "Refresher" courses every 3 years
2020 - Mandatory night time shooting license
2020 - Mandatory night shooting proficiency course
2021 - Graduated licensing
2021 - Mandatory Pheasant license
2022 - Mandatory Duck license
2023 - Vermin license

Now couple all the above with this:

2018 - Anyone with no HCAP (or no range membership) cannot have "deer legal" firearm (so goodbye 220 swift up to 300 winmag for anyone with one already)
2019 - Failure to complete course means loss of firearm and hunting license
2020 - Anyone without a night shooting license/course looses their firearm (Goodbye 22lr, 17hme, 22wmr, .204 and on up to 223, etc)
2020 - Anyone without a license cannot hold a shotgun (unless part of a clay range)
2021 - Anyone that cannot pass the graduated licensing tests cannot get the gun they actually need/want so are stuck on say a 22lr. With no reason for 22lr they loose it.
2023 - Anyone with no vermin license looses their firearm (goodbye to everything that is left).

Now the person that thought the mandatory deer course (HCAP) was no big deal finds themselves in 5 years sitting at home watching the great british bakeoff wondering where their sport went.

In the meantime hundreds of thousands, dare i say millions, of Euro have been paid out by the few thousand willing and able to pay for all the fees, courses, training, licenses, etc over the years.

Where does that money go? Those running the courses don't do it for free so they'll get some. The various bodies such as the NPWS, well they cannot get funding for a toothbrush as it is, and i've yet to see direct investment from "taxation" in anything in this country, so nothing improves there. If it goes to the Dept then it's gobbled up and spat out as some new Gallery for painting with toilet brushes so no help there.

The cycle continues until the few thousand left in any part of the sport cannot be bothered or afford it anymore. As numbers drop off so to does the various sports that are/were left.

By 2030 were all playing golf and it starts all over again. Smaller "caliber" golf balls, anything over a 3 iron is restricted, reduced club limits (no more than 10 clubs), only playing the front nine as the back nine is off limits from Sept to March, etc, etc.

God i love this country. Bad enough our politicians do us without vaseline, but our own come in for sloppy seconds. (excuse the vulgarity, a little miffed at this whole thing).

Grizzly 45

meathstevie wrote: »

A

If we all need to pass an exam I suggest that the minister publishes an invitation to tender with the conditions attached very swiftly. If this is supposed to start in eight weeks it'll have to be done at the speed of light. Since this will involve amounts of money far in excess of the threshold to not go public it's actually already impossible to start this from January 2018.
.

BEWARE THE DAIL XMAS BREAK!
How many bills are rushed thru with the whip and guillotine, not even a quarter discussed and debated, before the overworked dears must rush off to deal with their constituency matters in a four-week long break over Christmas?
Remember the rod license war in the 1980s?It started just like a situation like this and this time period of the year..Another reason I hate Christmas!:mad:

270WIN

IMO the WDAOI have a lot to answer for all this crap.. They have pushed membership on anyone who loves looking at photos of bambi...i bet lots of their membership never shot a deer in their life..now they are an authority on all things deer. The top table there have designs on making deer stalking here the very same as the UK (a sport for the select few) They want the ordinary lad with a 243 and a few permissions out of the sport so that the select few (themselves and their cronies) can control everything. The days of free stalking are numbered.

Grizzly 45

Was just looking at my Buck Knife and thought of this as a campaign or whatever slogan? Buck = deer or money??...

Sika98k

cavan shooter wrote: »

I got this as an e mail from Countryside alliance, so dont think its a rumour anymore:

http://countrysideallianceireland.org/ie/shooting/mandatory-certification-for-deer-hunters-from-1st-january-2018?utm_campaign=197068_MANDATORY%20CERTIFICATION%20FOR%20DEER%20HUNTERS%20FROM%201st%20JANUARY%202018&utm_medium=dotmailer&utm_source=Countryside%20Alliance&dm_i=44G9,4824,1MJ8JH,GGJ8,1

I had a quick read of that. "Will be required ". By whom exactly ? NPWS ? Private landowners ? Your insurance company ? Say it often and loud enough and it becomes Gospel.

dto001

Email sent to the minister:)