[13/9/2017] DART derailment at Dún Laoghaire

Infini

devnull wrote: »

So what you're basically saying that a body that has been set-up to represent Rail Users and have a track record of representing them is not a good source and a more reliable source would be an annoymous poster on boards such as yourself who doesn't substaniate that claim?

No offence but when I looked at some of those tweets of the pictures the unprofessional remarks felt like something off the liberal.ie C_C

Jamie2k9

devnull wrote: »

That article is from 18 months ago, the CRR expressed reservations as recently as last month.

No they didn't, what they said last month was ‘constructive’ dialogue in place after previously strained relationship. It was all related to the 2015 problem.

devnull

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

No they didn't, what they said last month was ‘constructive’ dialogue in place after previously strained relationship. It was all related to the 2015 problem.

https://www.crr.ie/press/2017/08/23/crr-concerned-about-safety-culture-in-iarnrod-eire/

CRR CONCERNED ABOUT SAFETY CULTURE IN IARNRÓD ÉIREANN
23 Aug 2017

The railway safety regulator has asked the Minister for Transport Tourism and Sport, Shane Ross, T.D., to strengthen the brief of the new Chair of Iarnród Éireann. This unprecedented step has been taken by the Commission for Railway Regulation as it publishes its annual report for 2016.

The annual report makes it clear that the CRR has reservations about the organisational culture in IÉ and the influence that it is having on safety culture, and has expressed them before.

The CRR has been keeping Minister Ross appraised of the situation. In particular, the CRR has drawn the Minister's attention to Iɒs failure to act on the 2015 CRR recommendation that the Company should introduce formal procedures to ensure that the Safety Management System leads rather than lags the decision making process and that safety validation is carried out to inform decisions that may have an impact on safety or compliance with railway safety legislation.

The CRR has confirmed that it remains available to provide guidance and support to Iarnród Éireann as the Company navigates itself along a pathway from where it is to where it ought to be in respect of safety culture.

Jamie2k9

devnull wrote: »

https://www.crr.ie/press/2017/08/23/crr-concerned-about-safety-culture-in-iarnrod-eire/

Well they also stated the quote I posted in their report.

CosmicJay

I'd congratulate the people who managed to wait 25 minutes at Salthill and then a further 50 when the train derailed.

I'd be off that train like an absolute light after half an hour with no instruction.

Anyone half physically able and competent will be able to traverse a railway with little to no risk. Everyone acts like its a minefield.

Personally I'm really proud of the fact the IR staff didn't go home before detraining the passengers and ask for productivity increases to lift it back onto the rails. They really did themselves proud.

lucernarian

CosmicJay wrote: »

I'd congratulate the people who managed to wait 25 minutes at Salthill and then a further 50 when the train derailed.

I'd be off that train like an absolute light after half an hour with no instruction.

Anyone half physically able and competent will be able to traverse a railway with little to no risk. Everyone acts like its a minefield.

Personally I'm really proud of the fact the IR staff didn't go home before detraining the passengers and ask for productivity increases to lift it back onto the rails. They really did themselves proud.

And don't forget the Dun Laoghaire staff who apparently idly watched on after the train derailed. It's fantastic that no one was hurt in this accident, I'd hate to see how well it would be handled if passengers suffered even minor injuries.

end of the road

CosmicJay wrote: »

Anyone half physically able and competent will be able to traverse a railway with little to no risk.

no they wouldn't. unless you have permission from irish rail, are at a designated level crossing or foot crossing, or in immediat danger on a train from something like a fire, you have no business being upon an operational railway.

CosmicJay wrote: »

Everyone acts like its a minefield.

because it is for those who don't know what they are doing, IE the general public.

CosmicJay

end of the road wrote: »

no they wouldn't. unless you have permission from irish rail, are at a designated level crossing or foot crossing, or in immediat danger on a train from something like a fire, you have no business being upon an operational railway.



because it is for those who don't know what they are doing, IE the general public

No, it's really simple, look left and right, listen, if you're on a corner walk to a straight bit so you can see for a moderate distance, don't rush, don't touch any cables or anything that looks electrical.

IR staff are a group to stand around with their hands on their hips going 'well would you look at that, better call the union'

I don't know about anybody else but I value my time, last thing I'm going to do is wait around while a bunch of overpaid wasters stand idly by talking.

It's a train line, yes there are dangers, but if you have half a brain you will be fine.

end of the road

CosmicJay wrote: »

No, it's really simple, look left and right, listen, if you're on a corner walk to a straight bit so you can see for a moderate distance, don't rush, don't touch any cables or anything that looks electrical.

no, it's really not that simple. we the general public have no business being on an operational railway unless it's at a designated crossing or we are in immediat danger onboard a train from something like a fire.

CosmicJay wrote: »

It's a train line, yes there are dangers, but if you have half a brain you will be fine.

nope. you won't be "fine" as the potential dangers are huge, and no train will be stopping for you. your hatred of IE staff and your fake news about unions doesn't change the reality and it does not excuse your lax behaviour on a potentially dangerous environment.

CosmicJay

end of the road wrote: »

no, it's really not that simple. we the general public have no business being on an operational railway unless it's at a designated crossing or we are in immediat danger onboard a train from something like a fire.



nope. you won't be "fine" as the potential dangers are huge, and no train will be stopping for you. your hatred of IE staff and your fake news about unions doesn't change the reality and it does not excuse your lax behaviour on a potentially dangerous environment.

The fact is no-one is going to sit on a train for over an hour with a bunch of Rail staff standing around pointing and talking at the problem rather than fixing it.

Keeping people in a train car for over an hour when all it takes is someone to bring some steps and help them disembark, escort them to the platform a few hundred yards away.

Its not rocket science, the fact that this basic task was unable to be completed in a timely fashion shows how broken our rail system is.

You accuse me of having blind hatred for the unions, maybe its your blind workship of IR that blinds you to the fact that in a modern fast paced commuter society, a bunch of lads standing around a train full of commuters with families to get home to is not really acceptable.

Infini

CosmicJay wrote: »

It's a train line, yes there are dangers, but if you have half a brain you will be fine.

Incoming darwin award in 3...2...1... :P

Seriously though how many times have we heard of this kind of argument only for the worst kind of ****e to hit the fan.

Hilly Bill

CosmicJay wrote: »

No, it's really simple, look left and right, listen, if you're on a corner walk to a straight bit so you can see for a moderate distance, don't rush, don't touch any cables or anything that looks electrical.

IR staff are a group to stand around with their hands on their hips going 'well would you look at that, better call the union'

I don't know about anybody else but I value my time, last thing I'm going to do is wait around while a bunch of overpaid wasters stand idly by talking.

It's a train line, yes there are dangers, but if you have half a brain you will be fine.

Should have called Saul.

CosmicJay

Infini wrote: »

Incoming darwin award in 3...2...1... :P

Seriously though how many times have we heard of this kind of argument only for the worst kind of ****e to hit the fan.

Ah sure I guess you'd be that person sitting on the train by themselves for a couple of hours after everyone left. :pac::pac:

Hilly Bill

CosmicJay wrote: »

The fact is no-one is going to sit on a train for over an hour with a bunch of Rail staff standing around pointing and talking at the problem rather than fixing it.

Keeping people in a train car for over an hour when all it takes is someone to bring some steps and help them disembark, escort them to the platform a few hundred yards away.

Its not rocket science, the fact that this basic task was unable to be completed in a timely fashion shows how broken our rail system is.

You accuse me of having blind hatred for the unions, maybe its your blind workship of IR that blinds you to the fact that in a modern fast paced commuter society, a bunch of lads standing around a train full of commuters with families to get home to is not really acceptable.

Ah ye, just get the special steps and we will be grand.
Once a train is broken down and not likely to be moving soon then the first course of action is to get passengers off the train as soon as possible and that's what happend. It's not a case of just open all doors and letting passengers just scramble all over the place.

CosmicJay

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Ah ye, just get the special steps and we will be grand.
Once a train is broken down and not likely to be moving soon then the first course of action is to get passengers off the train as soon as possible and that's what happend. It's not a case of just open all doors and letting passengers just scramble all over the place.

ah ye the special steps, like an emergency ladder?

Its not rocket science lads.

Hilly Bill

CosmicJay wrote: »

ah ye the special steps, like an emergency ladder?

Its not rocket science lads.

Certain steps needs to be taken first.

Infini

CosmicJay wrote: »

ah ye the special steps, like an emergency ladder?

Its not rocket science lads.

The safety systems are there to reduce the chance of an accident to a minimum. The inconvenience of being home late or losing free time is just that, an inconvenience.

devnull

Infini wrote: »

The safety systems are there to reduce the chance of an accident to a minimum.

Also a good safety culture can help with that.

https://www.crr.ie/press/2017/08/23/crr-concerned-about-safety-culture-in-iarnrod-eire/

CRR CONCERNED ABOUT SAFETY CULTURE IN IARNRÓD ÉIREANN
23 Aug 2017

The railway safety regulator has asked the Minister for Transport Tourism and Sport, Shane Ross, T.D., to strengthen the brief of the new Chair of Iarnród Éireann. This unprecedented step has been taken by the Commission for Railway Regulation as it publishes its annual report for 2016.

The annual report makes it clear that the CRR has reservations about the organisational culture in IÉ and the influence that it is having on safety culture, and has expressed them before.

The CRR has been keeping Minister Ross appraised of the situation. In particular, the CRR has drawn the Minister's attention to Iɒs failure to act on the 2015 CRR recommendation that the Company should introduce formal procedures to ensure that the Safety Management System leads rather than lags the decision making process and that safety validation is carried out to inform decisions that may have an impact on safety or compliance with railway safety legislation.

The CRR has confirmed that it remains available to provide guidance and support to Iarnród Éireann as the Company navigates itself along a pathway from where it is to where it ought to be in respect of safety culture.

Infini

So your being critical because the staff are following safety procedures? o.O Theres just no winning with some people.....

Hilly Bill

Why the need to keep reposting the same link? What's your point in relation to this thread Devnull?

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Why the need to keep reposting the same link? What's your point in relation to this thread Devnull?

At the end of the day, if we're talking about safety then I think what a regulator says about safety is without a doubt relevant, if you don't feel that it is that you are perfectly entitled to have that view, just like anyone else is perfectly entitled to air their own views about the incident, we're not necessarily going to agree on everything however, clearly.

lucernarian

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Ah ye, just get the special steps and we will be grand.
Once a train is broken down and not likely to be moving soon then the first course of action is to get passengers off the train as soon as possible and that's what happend. It's not a case of just open all doors and letting passengers just scramble all over the place.

That simply doesn't appear to be the case. 1) because most if not all passengers removed themselves without any assistance from staff, so that's probably not what happened first and 2) some of the staff didn't look exactly busy prior to the detainment going by reports here.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

At the end of the day, if we're talking about safety then I think what a regulator says about safety is without a doubt relevant, if you don't feel that it is that you are perfectly entitled to have that view, just like anyone else is perfectly entitled to air their own views about the incident, we're not necessarily going to agree on everything however, clearly.

You missed the point though, is there a need to repost the same link multiple times in the same thread?

Hilly Bill

lucernarian wrote: »

That simply doesn't appear to be the case. 1) because most if not all passengers removed themselves without any assistance from staff, so that's probably not what happened first and 2) some of the staff didn't look exactly busy prior to the detainment going by reports here.

I'm sure the safety regulator will take into consideration the comments on here before making his report.

lucernarian

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I'm sure the safety regulator will take into consideration the comments on here before making his report.

I imagine passenger feedback will be sought (if the detraining is relevant to the investigation) and may have already been sought at this early stage of the investigation.

Jamie2k9

devnull wrote: »

At the end of the day, if we're talking about safety then I think what a regulator says about safety is without a doubt relevant, if you don't feel that it is that you are perfectly entitled to have that view, just like anyone else is perfectly entitled to air their own views about the incident, we're not necessarily going to agree on everything however, clearly.

but the important thing to note is IE have not broken any safety rules.......

end of the road

CosmicJay wrote: »

The fact is no-one is going to sit on a train for over an hour with a bunch of Rail staff standing around pointing and talking at the problem rather than fixing it.

Keeping people in a train car for over an hour when all it takes is someone to bring some steps and help them disembark, escort them to the platform a few hundred yards away.

Its not rocket science, the fact that this basic task was unable to be completed in a timely fashion shows how broken our rail system is.

You accuse me of having blind hatred for the unions, maybe its your blind workship of IR that blinds you to the fact that in a modern fast paced commuter society, a bunch of lads standing around a train full of commuters with families to get home to is not really acceptable.

doesn't matter whether it's rocket science or not, the only people with the qualification, training and authority to bring some steps and help passengers disembark, escort passengers to the platform are IE staff. not you, not me, not anyone else. a timely fashion is the time it takes to get everything set up to insure safe removal of passengers from the train. that can be a few minutes, that can be an hour or more depending on a number of factors. it certainly won't be based on how much time me or you believe it should take.
i don't work for IE, but i don't have much sympathy for those who think it's exceptible to go out onto an operational railway when they aren't in any danger by remaining on the train. i have the same view for those who misuse level crossings or any other hazardess action when it comes to the operational railway. play with the railway and there will be only one winner.
a modern fast paced commuter society means jot. it doesn't excuse people thinking they can, or actually doing what they like because they are in a hurry.

lawlolawl

lucernarian wrote: »

I imagine passenger feedback will be sought (if the detraining is relevant to the investigation) and may have already been sought at this early stage of the investigation.

I work for IE and if there were no passengers injured then they will not even consider them in any investigation.

The staff did what they were supposed to do and that's all that matters.

If some clown had left the train under their own power against advice and got clipped by something on the other line then the staff would still be ok because they followed procedure.

devnull

lawlolawl wrote: »

I work for IE and if there were no passengers injured then they will not even consider them in any investigation.

The staff did what they were supposed to do and that's all that matters.

If some clown had left the train under their own power against advice and got clipped by something on the other line then the staff would still be ok because they followed procedure.

If you want any investigation to really improve things in future then it is vitally important that the investigation focuses on why certain things happened first and foremost rather than who should get the blame. The problem is that many investigations I've been involved in, in a number of industries primarily focus on finding someone to blame, rather than focusing on why certain things happened.

In aviation humans historicaly kept making the same mistakes because of the way the human brain works at the end of a chain of events. if we simply said that the humans are at fault and made bad decisions and that is all there is to it, we'd have had far more aviation accidents since we'd just put it down to human error and change nothing and the same errors would keep happening time after time.

But that doesn't prevent the same happening in the future, we have to look at the way that humans react to certain situations and put systems and procedures in place to ensure that they do not carry out those behaviours in the future since at the end of the day, we cannot control another human, but we can try and put things in place to make them less likely to take the actions they did.

lucernarian

lawlolawl wrote: »

I work for IE and if there were no passengers injured then they will not even consider them in any investigation.

The staff did what they were supposed to do and that's all that matters.

If some clown had left the train under their own power against advice and got clipped by something on the other line then the staff would still be ok because they followed procedure.

At the very heart of this discussion is whether the passengers did anything wrong when getting off the train. It seems that no passengers were injured - if this wouldn't even form part of the investigation then this is quite possibly because there wasn't a safety issue to begin with when they did this? Otherwise I can't see how the RSC could ignore it.

The earlier reports about staff in Dun Laoghaire station are worrisome, some folks here allege that they didn't follow procedure. Whether the "procedure" itself is actually up to scratch... I don't know.