[13/9/2017] DART derailment at Dún Laoghaire

goingnowhere

end of the road wrote: »

maybe they didn't think people were that thick? wrongly obviously but i think most people know not to mess with the railway. they have to get something in place to stop it from happening again though, no excuses.

Humans are smart, people are not.

At the time the incident occurred there was at least 5 Irish Rail staff, all trained to go trackside on site, 3 drivers, 2 station staff

It would have take 5 minutes to get a member of staff onboard to walk through the train, that has always been the established protocol in an accident, to walk through and ensure everyone is ok and identify any high risk passengers who will not be able to climb out, also to seek out any company staff onboard to assist.

But no that didn't happen, everyone stood around the front of the train in that wonderfully typical Irish approach of rubbernecking. The area was secured by 1820 so no risk of other trains moving around.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

maybe they didn't think people were that thick? wrongly obviously but i think most people know not to mess with the railway. they have to get something in place to stop it from happening again though, no excuses.

It's not about being 'thick' its about how the human mind reacts in such a situation, the first instinct of a human mind after event like that is to try and asses the situation, in absence of any verbal or visual clues of safety it will often go into a panic which only increases with time. That is why timely communications and reassurance to passengers during events like this is so important.

At the end of the day with any incident like this instead of pointing figners at people for taking some action you need to understand why that they did it and put in place procedures to make it less likely to happen again, certainly the poor standard of communication would have contributed the decisions that the passengers made and that is something that needs to be improved rather than swept under the carpet.

end of the road

the passengers are fully to blame for going out on to what is as far as the rules are concerned a live railway.
irish rail are absolutely not off the hook for their shambolic handling and lack of communication which there is no excuse for, but the passengers are fully responsible for detraining, it's their own fault in full they chose those actions and had something happened, they would be fully responsible.

Hilly Bill

end of the road wrote: »

the passengers are fully to blame for going out on to what is as far as the rules are concerned a live railway.
irish rail are absolutely not off the hook for their shambolic handling and lack of communication which there is no excuse for, but the passengers are fully responsible for detraining, it's their own fault in full they chose those actions and had something happened, they would be fully responsible.

But it didn't happen.

Mousewar

The criticism of the passengers is a bit weird. I know on paper you're right to criticise us but it's so different when you're there. I mean nothing had gone past the whole time we were there. The railway was dead. We were also in that wide open area before Dun Laoghaire with clear visibility in both directions and the Dun L platform was within sight. Also, as I explained, myself and the majority of the other passengers assumed we were taking part in the official detraining until we realised belatedly we weren't.

monument

end of the road wrote: »

the passengers are fully to blame for going out on to what is as far as the rules are concerned a live railway.
irish rail are absolutely not off the hook for their shambolic handling and lack of communication which there is no excuse for, but the passengers are fully responsible for detraining, it's their own fault in full they chose those actions and had something happened, they would be fully responsible.

Do you think our railway safety authority would have that view?

Do you think the Railway Accident Investigation Unit will in their report?

tnegun

The fact that passengers weren't aware that the detraining was unofficial shows how poor management and communication was on site. Whatever about other trains you'd expect the passengers onthee derailed train would be kept up-to-date

end of the road

monument wrote: »

Do you think our railway safety authority would have that view?

Do you think the Railway Accident Investigation Unit will in their report?

as i don't work for either the Railway Accident Investigation Unit, or the railway safety authority, i would not be privy to what those units will contain within their reports, or what views they share with me or not.
our men and women in these authorities will take all information they require and will find the facts based on that evidence.

Jamie2k9

devnull wrote: »

Unfortunately this is where Irish Rail's reputation goes before them to some degree. I have traveled on Irish Rail and other operators extensively and I know that I cannot rely on Irish Rail to deliver passenger information or keep them updated or deliver an adequate standard of customer care during disruption or incidents.

I have been stuck in incidents on various operators in the UK, Ireland and within Europe and Irish Rail are by far the worst I have experienced when it comes to dealing with such incidents and care for their passengers and keeping them informed whilst on train. Unfortunately if people do not feel adequately informed or assisted by staff that is when the start to consider taking things into their own hands.

I'm not saying that it is the right thing to do or that I support what they are doing, but it is human nature and passengers clearly felt that they were left on a limb there without proper assistance from the company and there are many reasons behind that, but as stated before, serious questions have been raised about the culture in Irish Rail and this does nothing to help the image of that.

I totally agree about communication, appealing by a high volume of drives some are great. I guess it might be argued it's "productivity". Perhaps they should introduce it as an offence on their licences

JayRoc wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Train is held at Seapoint for 30 mins (due to points failure ahead). Train finally moves off but almost immediately stops again (due to derailment ahead after points were repaired) and is held for another 50 mins before passengers have enough and finally pop the doors open and stroll back to the platform a few metres away.

My understanding is that no one on this dart had received communication from IR at all, at any stage.

Not being funny here but how long would people here have waited?

Difference between a train held where passengers were free to leave. It's a weak case to try and justify passengers actions.

devnull wrote: »

From what I heard there was some communication on the derailed train but it was lacking on others.

The Rail Users Ireland report however suggests that some people in the incident train also had no announcements, but since that train consisted of a few trains coupled together, it's possible that the announcements did not go out in all of the carriages.

It would be unlikely that the coupler was damaged and cut off communication. Passengers hear what the "want" in such situations. I'm sure plenty had headphones in.

LXFlyer wrote: »

Unfortunately, this is one of those far from ideal situations where the short answer to when people will be removed safely from the train is "how long is a piece of string".

There are very strict rules within which the railway operates, and these have to be followed.

Staff would have to be organised to get to any of the trains that were not at a station platform, and a safe route established to detrain the passengers. That's not going to happen immediately - the railway company doesn't have staff waiting around to instantly deal with an incident like this.

And yes, it is all very bureaucratic, and may appear ridiculous to people, but that is how the railway works - the rule book is very black and white.

As for people taking measures into their own hands, I've absolutely no sympathy for them whatsoever. It's an active railway, they're not trained in personal safety on the tracks, and irrespective of the delay, there is no excuse for trespassing on the railway.

It's one of those situations where you have to just grin and bear it until the staff come to detrain people safely.

Not often I fully agree with you!

goingnowhere wrote: »

Humans are smart, people are not.

At the time the incident occurred there was at least 5 Irish Rail staff, all trained to go trackside on site, 3 drivers, 2 station staff

It would have take 5 minutes to get a member of staff onboard to walk through the train, that has always been the established protocol in an accident, to walk through and ensure everyone is ok and identify any high risk passengers who will not be able to climb out, also to seek out any company staff onboard to assist.

But no that didn't happen, everyone stood around the front of the train in that wonderfully typical Irish approach of rubbernecking. The area was secured by 1820 so no risk of other trains moving around.

Staff should face disciplinary action or the staff who instructed them not to do what they should of.

The criticism of the passengers is a bit weird. I know on paper you're right to criticise us but it's so different when you're there. I mean nothing had gone past the whole time we were there. The railway was dead. We were also in that wide open area before Dun Laoghaire with clear visibility in both directions and the Dun L platform was within sight. Also, as I explained, myself and the majority of the other passengers assumed we were taking part in the official detraining until we realised belatedly we weren't.

Railway dead of not isn't the point, the mastermind of de training wouldn't of been a train pro, if they were they wouldn't of de trained,

The fact that passengers weren't aware that the detraining was unofficial shows how poor management and communication was on site. Whatever about other trains you'd expect the passengers onthee derailed train would be kept up-to-date

It also shows how stupid they, anybody person with more than a brain cell or two would know it's not official if there has been no IE staff or communication to them.

monument wrote: »

Do you think our railway safety authority would have that view?

Do you think the Railway Accident Investigation Unit will in their report?

Of course not, they would never expect anybody to take responsibility for their actions just like our whole society today.

lucernarian

monument wrote: »

Do you think our railway safety authority would have that view?

Do you think the Railway Accident Investigation Unit will in their report?

That is an excellent question. If something like a detraining is carried out by a large body of reasonable people, owing to the conventional wisdom of the day and with as much care can be expected, it needs to be managed to prevent that happening by the operator if passengers really were endangering themselves.

If passengers weren't endangering themselves, then there's not much criticism to be levelled at them.

prinzeugen

monument wrote: »

Do you think our railway safety authority would have that view?

Do you think the Railway Accident Investigation Unit will in their report?

Yes and I bet it will get a section in the report. As I and others have posted, the location of the derailment is next to a 1500v DC feeder.

DC current at 1000's of amps. Would cook you inside out in seconds.

There are return bonds (min of 2) in every signal section. Electrocution risk.

There is a reason why they were kept on the train.

Even today on LU after the failed bomb, passengers were being kept clear of the 3rd (live) and 4th (return) rails.

The power was off but better safe than sorry.

But I suppose DART users know more than the people that build/maintain them and the track?

suicide_circus

Mousewar wrote: »

The criticism of the passengers is a bit weird. I know on paper you're right to criticise us but it's so different when you're there. I mean nothing had gone past the whole time we were there. The railway was dead. We were also in that wide open area before Dun Laoghaire with clear visibility in both directions and the Dun L platform was within sight. Also, as I explained, myself and the majority of the other passengers assumed we were taking part in the official detraining until we realised belatedly we weren't.

The criticism of passengers is the standard approach of many posters when anyone dares question the actions/inaction of staff on this forum. Deny and deflect. In any incident such as this you cannot under any circumstances rely on the general public, that's why systems and procedures are put in place and rehearsed to manage the situation.

Jamie2k9

suicide_circus wrote: »

The criticism of passengers is the standard approach of many posters when anyone dares question the actions/inaction of staff on this forum. Deny and deflect. In any incident such as this you cannot under any circumstances rely on the general public, that's why systems and procedures are put in place and rehearsed to manage the situation.

IE have gotten a fair level of criticism as well.

If this was a much more serious situation I actually think IE would of handled it much better than the shambles here.

lucernarian

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

IE have gotten a fair level of criticism as well.

If this was a much more serious situation I actually think IE would of handled it much better than the shambles here.

That doesn't really address the point though. If I read the earlier posts in this thread, it seems you think the biggest shambles was because the passenger left the train. I think I'm not the only one who doesn't get that part.

Jamie2k9

lucernarian wrote: »

That doesn't really address the point though. If I read the earlier posts in this thread, it seems you think the biggest shambles was because the passenger left the train. I think I'm not the only one who doesn't get that part.

Passengers shouldn't of left the train, I still stand by this simply because there was no need for it because there was no immediate danger to those passengers on board. I fully get poor communication and frustration can take over but still doesn't excuse their actions.

Clearly IE failed to execute their "procedures" if goingnowhere post is correct some of which are pretty basic and appropriate action should be taken against those and prehaps a major re training exercise to remind others.

There does appear to of been a lack of urgency about the situation, now myself or any poster here were unlikely to of been line side and responding to the incident so can't really comment why various actions were not taken in a timely manor. I guess that's up to the report.

lucernarian

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Passengers shouldn't of left the train, I still stand by this simply because there was no need for it because there was no immediate danger to those passengers on board. I fully get poor communication and frustration can take over but still doesn't excuse their actions.

Clearly IE failed to execute their "procedures" if goingnowhere post is correct some of which are pretty basic and appropriate action should be taken against those and prehaps a major re training exercise to remind others.

There does appear to of been a lack of urgency about the situation, now myself or any poster here were unlikely to of been line side and responding to the incident so can't really comment why various actions were not taken in a timely manor. I guess that's up to the report.

I just don't understand how they could have known better, if the driver mentions detraining in an announcement around the time multiple people start walking outside. That's a lot of people who supposedly acted irresponsibly.

If mixed messages or limited info is presented by Irish Rail to passengers, then actions taken as a result of those mixed messages does excuse the behaviour of passengers.

trellheim

Isn't there a study somewhere ( recall reading about it on UK railforums ) that says without decent communication passengers will self-evacuate in 80 minutes or thereabouts ?

Jamie2k9

lucernarian wrote: »

I just don't understand how they could have known better, if the driver mentions detraining in an announcement around the time multiple people start walking outside. That's a lot of people who supposedly acted irresponsibly.

If mixed messages or limited info is presented by Irish Rail to passengers, then actions taken as a result of those mixed messages does excuse the behaviour of passengers.

I don't recall reading that a driver announced a de training and considering the numbers involved were low when you compare to the total train load, I don't understand how you think they were not irresponsible.

The fact IE also stopped the de training, the other "responsible" people started it again in a different coach.....

Dr Crayfish

on the tube anyway I remember if it stopped for even 30 seconds they'd usually say "Apologies just waiting for a signal change shouldn't be long now". They stop all the f*cking time here and we are never given reasons. Like the changing drivers mullarkey, why aren't they telling us what's happening? Probably some union bullsh*t that keeps them from having to do it. I was stuck between Clontarf and Killester a while ago on a Saturday for about 40 minutes and got no explanation at all. Felt like running up and giving out to the driver afterwards but didn't bother, I only use the thing when weather is too bad to cycle. The Luas seems ok, but I don't live near it, but apart from that public transport is pretty terrible in Dublin, 3rd world stuff.

Hilly Bill

You know that they are changing drivers but you want them to tell you that they are changing drivers??

end of the road

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You know that they are changing drivers but you want them to tell you that they are changing drivers??

indeed. but to be fair, others may not know that there is a driver change happening so it would be no harm to say so.

Dr Crayfish

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You know that they are changing drivers but you want them to tell you that they are changing drivers??

Yes I bloody do. At the weekends the dart is full of tourists going to Howth etc and wouldn't know what's happening. It also stops frequently just as you come out of Connolly, then again changing drivers. Why not change at Clontarf road? It's a terrible, really slow service, I can't for the life of me see how anyone can defend it.

end of the road

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

on the tube anyway I remember if it stopped for even 30 seconds they'd usually say "Apologies just waiting for a signal change shouldn't be long now". They stop all the f*cking time here and we are never given reasons. Like the changing drivers mullarkey, why aren't they telling us what's happening? Probably some union bullsh*t that keeps them from having to do it.

nothing to do with the unions.

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I was stuck between Clontarf and Killester a while ago on a Saturday for about 40 minutes and got no explanation at all. Felt like running up and giving out to the driver afterwards but didn't bother

you wouldn't have been able to get to the driver as his cab is locked to keep it secure.

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Yes I bloody do. At the weekends the dart is full of tourists going to Howth etc and wouldn't know what's happening. It also stops frequently just as you come out of Connolly, then again changing drivers. Why not change at Clontarf road? It's a terrible, really slow service, I can't for the life of me see how anyone can defend it.

they have to change at the depot to insure a quicker change-over time. it's a nucence granted but i guess it is what it is

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

nothing to do with the unions.

they have to change at the depot to insure a quicker change-over time. it's a nucence granted but i guess it is what it is

It is everything to do with unions because it is an agreement with unions that staff have to change at the depot rather than at Clontarf Road station.

I'm not sure how you think it's quicker, because what happens is the train stops once and about 10 seconds later it stops again, if it would stop once it would save time due to the basic rules of physics relating to decelerating, stopping and accelerating again being slower than not slowing down or stopping.

lucernarian

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I don't recall reading that a driver announced a de training and considering the numbers involved were low when you compare to the total train load, I don't understand how you think they were not irresponsible.

The fact IE also stopped the de training, the other "responsible" people started it again in a different coach.....

From someone who was on the train (no reason to disbelieve the account):

After about 45 minutes (this was following a previous wait of about 25 mins at Salthill due to a points failure) he said we'd be detrained in 15-25 minutes

Dr Crayfish

end of the road wrote: »

nothing to do with the unions.



you wouldn't have been able to get to the driver as his cab is locked to keep it secure.



they have to change at the depot to insure a quicker change-over time. it's a nucence granted but i guess it is what it is

Ok so why can't they explain what's going on? And why can't they explain what's going on when it stops coming out of Connolly every bloody day? Is it something to do with congestion? I don't even know, so they should be announcing something. We pay pretty high fares to use the shoddy service but it's got no respect for the customer.

And I could talk to the driver, nearly every time you get out the driver has his head out the window looking back to make sure everyone has got on/off.

end of the road

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Ok so why can't they explain what's going on? And why can't they explain what's going on when it stops coming out of Connolly every bloody day? Is it something to do with congestion? I don't even know, so they should be announcing something. We pay pretty high fares to use the shoddy service but it's got no respect for the customer.

And I could talk to the driver, nearly every time you get out the driver has his head out the window looking back to make sure everyone has got on/off.

i don't know why they can't or won't explain what is going on. they should be doing it, there is no excuse not to.
if the driver doesn't know what is going on then ctc should be making announcements as they will likely know what is happening.

Working class heroes

end of the road wrote: »

i don't know why they can't or won't explain what is going on. they should be doing it, there is no excuse not to.
if the driver doesn't know what is going on then ctc should be making announcements as they will likely know what is happening.

If the driver doesn't know what's going on then he shouldn't be driving the train.

Hilly Bill

end of the road wrote: »

indeed. but to be fair, others may not know that there is a driver change happening so it would be no harm to say so.

I know, but if you already know what's happening, what's the point of giving out about not being told what's happening as you already know what's happening.
If you know what's happening but annoyed that the other passengers wasn't told what's happening then that's fair enough.

Infini

suicide_circus wrote: »

The criticism of passengers is the standard approach of many posters when anyone dares question the actions/inaction of staff on this forum. Deny and deflect. In any incident such as this you cannot under any circumstances rely on the general public, that's why systems and procedures are put in place and rehearsed to manage the situation.

To be perfectly honest some people are RIGHT to be critical of some passengers. Maybe not all but there's some people that don't wait for instructions even though there's no threat to their safety they're too impatient and will just decide they're gonna do what they like and not wait for official guidance from staff. The problem is these people can cause others to follow thinking they can go too (sheep mentality) and risk putting others in danger.

I'll be honest some of these kinds of people are the worst to deal with because they're full of themselves and aren't interested in listening or following instructions because they're too arrogant, impatient and thinking they're smart (to prove point someone mentioned staff tried to stop people just getting off only for the same kind of person to open the doors on ANOTHER carriage). Lets say there was a live electrical cable nearby that had been dislodged and staff were waiting on it to be disconnected or waiting for the go ahead from whoever is in charge and this kind of person decides to do what they do. Others could follow and one of them could run into that cable untittingly and be elecrocuted. Then what? The ones giving out about people being critical of passengers would be the first to try and say its IR's fault or look for some other excuse even though it was the person who refused to wait for official instructions fault who caused that to happen!

Wether they like it or not people aren't left on a train because the staff aren't bothered they're on the train because in situations like this staff have to follow the guidelines that they've been told to follow regardless of how "inconvenient" it is. They follow these procedures for safety reasons. The line isn't suitable for normal people to walk on there's trip hazards which requires staff to wear non slip footwear with steel toed caps when on the line not to mention the fact that there's high voltage electricity nearby that can kill a person.

The only real time it's wise to use the door release without staff instruction is if there's an immediate threat to life like a fire for example as there's a greater chance of loss of life from burns than being hit by another train.