[13/9/2017] DART derailment at Dún Laoghaire

Infini · 17-09-2017 9:37pm

devnull wrote: »

So what you're basically saying that a body that has been set-up to represent Rail Users and have a track record of representing them is not a good source and a more reliable source would be an annoymous poster on boards such as yourself who doesn't substaniate that claim?

No offence but when I looked at some of those tweets of the pictures the unprofessional remarks felt like something off the liberal.ie C_C

Jamie2k9 · 17-09-2017 10:08pm

devnull wrote: »

That article is from 18 months ago, the CRR expressed reservations as recently as last month.

No they didn't, what they said last month was ‘constructive’ dialogue in place after previously strained relationship. It was all related to the 2015 problem.

devnull · 17-09-2017 10:16pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

No they didn't, what they said last month was ‘constructive’ dialogue in place after previously strained relationship. It was all related to the 2015 problem.

https://www.crr.ie/press/2017/08/23/crr-concerned-about-safety-culture-in-iarnrod-eire/

CRR CONCERNED ABOUT SAFETY CULTURE IN IARNRÓD ÉIREANN
23 Aug 2017

The railway safety regulator has asked the Minister for Transport Tourism and Sport, Shane Ross, T.D., to strengthen the brief of the new Chair of Iarnród Éireann. This unprecedented step has been taken by the Commission for Railway Regulation as it publishes its annual report for 2016.

The annual report makes it clear that the CRR has reservations about the organisational culture in IÉ and the influence that it is having on safety culture, and has expressed them before.

The CRR has been keeping Minister Ross appraised of the situation. In particular, the CRR has drawn the Minister's attention to Iɒs failure to act on the 2015 CRR recommendation that the Company should introduce formal procedures to ensure that the Safety Management System leads rather than lags the decision making process and that safety validation is carried out to inform decisions that may have an impact on safety or compliance with railway safety legislation.

The CRR has confirmed that it remains available to provide guidance and support to Iarnród Éireann as the Company navigates itself along a pathway from where it is to where it ought to be in respect of safety culture.

Jamie2k9 · 17-09-2017 10:36pm

devnull wrote: »

https://www.crr.ie/press/2017/08/23/crr-concerned-about-safety-culture-in-iarnrod-eire/

Well they also stated the quote I posted in their report.

CosmicJay · 18-09-2017 10:11am

I'd congratulate the people who managed to wait 25 minutes at Salthill and then a further 50 when the train derailed.

I'd be off that train like an absolute light after half an hour with no instruction.

Anyone half physically able and competent will be able to traverse a railway with little to no risk. Everyone acts like its a minefield.

Personally I'm really proud of the fact the IR staff didn't go home before detraining the passengers and ask for productivity increases to lift it back onto the rails. They really did themselves proud.

lucernarian · 18-09-2017 11:39am

CosmicJay wrote: »

I'd congratulate the people who managed to wait 25 minutes at Salthill and then a further 50 when the train derailed.

I'd be off that train like an absolute light after half an hour with no instruction.

Anyone half physically able and competent will be able to traverse a railway with little to no risk. Everyone acts like its a minefield.

Personally I'm really proud of the fact the IR staff didn't go home before detraining the passengers and ask for productivity increases to lift it back onto the rails. They really did themselves proud.

And don't forget the Dun Laoghaire staff who apparently idly watched on after the train derailed. It's fantastic that no one was hurt in this accident, I'd hate to see how well it would be handled if passengers suffered even minor injuries.

end of the road · 18-09-2017 12:29pm

CosmicJay wrote: »

Anyone half physically able and competent will be able to traverse a railway with little to no risk.

no they wouldn't. unless you have permission from irish rail, are at a designated level crossing or foot crossing, or in immediat danger on a train from something like a fire, you have no business being upon an operational railway.

CosmicJay wrote: »

Everyone acts like its a minefield.

because it is for those who don't know what they are doing, IE the general public.

CosmicJay · 18-09-2017 1:48pm

end of the road wrote: »

no they wouldn't. unless you have permission from irish rail, are at a designated level crossing or foot crossing, or in immediat danger on a train from something like a fire, you have no business being upon an operational railway.

because it is for those who don't know what they are doing, IE the general public

No, it's really simple, look left and right, listen, if you're on a corner walk to a straight bit so you can see for a moderate distance, don't rush, don't touch any cables or anything that looks electrical.

IR staff are a group to stand around with their hands on their hips going 'well would you look at that, better call the union'

I don't know about anybody else but I value my time, last thing I'm going to do is wait around while a bunch of overpaid wasters stand idly by talking.

It's a train line, yes there are dangers, but if you have half a brain you will be fine.

end of the road · 18-09-2017 2:05pm

CosmicJay wrote: »

No, it's really simple, look left and right, listen, if you're on a corner walk to a straight bit so you can see for a moderate distance, don't rush, don't touch any cables or anything that looks electrical.

no, it's really not that simple. we the general public have no business being on an operational railway unless it's at a designated crossing or we are in immediat danger onboard a train from something like a fire.

CosmicJay wrote: »

It's a train line, yes there are dangers, but if you have half a brain you will be fine.

nope. you won't be "fine" as the potential dangers are huge, and no train will be stopping for you. your hatred of IE staff and your fake news about unions doesn't change the reality and it does not excuse your lax behaviour on a potentially dangerous environment.

CosmicJay · 18-09-2017 2:28pm

end of the road wrote: »

no, it's really not that simple. we the general public have no business being on an operational railway unless it's at a designated crossing or we are in immediat danger onboard a train from something like a fire.

nope. you won't be "fine" as the potential dangers are huge, and no train will be stopping for you. your hatred of IE staff and your fake news about unions doesn't change the reality and it does not excuse your lax behaviour on a potentially dangerous environment.

The fact is no-one is going to sit on a train for over an hour with a bunch of Rail staff standing around pointing and talking at the problem rather than fixing it.

Keeping people in a train car for over an hour when all it takes is someone to bring some steps and help them disembark, escort them to the platform a few hundred yards away.

Its not rocket science, the fact that this basic task was unable to be completed in a timely fashion shows how broken our rail system is.

You accuse me of having blind hatred for the unions, maybe its your blind workship of IR that blinds you to the fact that in a modern fast paced commuter society, a bunch of lads standing around a train full of commuters with families to get home to is not really acceptable.

Infini · 18-09-2017 3:22pm

CosmicJay wrote: »

It's a train line, yes there are dangers, but if you have half a brain you will be fine.

Incoming darwin award in 3...2...1... :P

Seriously though how many times have we heard of this kind of argument only for the worst kind of ****e to hit the fan.

Hilly Bill · 18-09-2017 3:25pm

CosmicJay wrote: »

No, it's really simple, look left and right, listen, if you're on a corner walk to a straight bit so you can see for a moderate distance, don't rush, don't touch any cables or anything that looks electrical.

IR staff are a group to stand around with their hands on their hips going 'well would you look at that, better call the union'

I don't know about anybody else but I value my time, last thing I'm going to do is wait around while a bunch of overpaid wasters stand idly by talking.

It's a train line, yes there are dangers, but if you have half a brain you will be fine.

Should have called Saul.

CosmicJay · 18-09-2017 3:30pm

Infini wrote: »

Incoming darwin award in 3...2...1... :P

Seriously though how many times have we heard of this kind of argument only for the worst kind of ****e to hit the fan.

Ah sure I guess you'd be that person sitting on the train by themselves for a couple of hours after everyone left. :pac::pac:

Hilly Bill · 18-09-2017 3:37pm

CosmicJay wrote: »

The fact is no-one is going to sit on a train for over an hour with a bunch of Rail staff standing around pointing and talking at the problem rather than fixing it.

Keeping people in a train car for over an hour when all it takes is someone to bring some steps and help them disembark, escort them to the platform a few hundred yards away.

Its not rocket science, the fact that this basic task was unable to be completed in a timely fashion shows how broken our rail system is.

You accuse me of having blind hatred for the unions, maybe its your blind workship of IR that blinds you to the fact that in a modern fast paced commuter society, a bunch of lads standing around a train full of commuters with families to get home to is not really acceptable.

Ah ye, just get the special steps and we will be grand.
Once a train is broken down and not likely to be moving soon then the first course of action is to get passengers off the train as soon as possible and that's what happend. It's not a case of just open all doors and letting passengers just scramble all over the place.

CosmicJay · 18-09-2017 3:49pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Ah ye, just get the special steps and we will be grand.
Once a train is broken down and not likely to be moving soon then the first course of action is to get passengers off the train as soon as possible and that's what happend. It's not a case of just open all doors and letting passengers just scramble all over the place.

ah ye the special steps, like an emergency ladder?

Its not rocket science lads.

Hilly Bill · 18-09-2017 4:43pm

CosmicJay wrote: »

ah ye the special steps, like an emergency ladder?

Its not rocket science lads.

Certain steps needs to be taken first.

Infini · 18-09-2017 4:51pm

CosmicJay wrote: »

ah ye the special steps, like an emergency ladder?

Its not rocket science lads.

The safety systems are there to reduce the chance of an accident to a minimum. The inconvenience of being home late or losing free time is just that, an inconvenience.

devnull · 18-09-2017 4:56pm

Infini wrote: »

The safety systems are there to reduce the chance of an accident to a minimum.

Also a good safety culture can help with that.

https://www.crr.ie/press/2017/08/23/crr-concerned-about-safety-culture-in-iarnrod-eire/

CRR CONCERNED ABOUT SAFETY CULTURE IN IARNRÓD ÉIREANN
23 Aug 2017

The railway safety regulator has asked the Minister for Transport Tourism and Sport, Shane Ross, T.D., to strengthen the brief of the new Chair of Iarnród Éireann. This unprecedented step has been taken by the Commission for Railway Regulation as it publishes its annual report for 2016.

The annual report makes it clear that the CRR has reservations about the organisational culture in IÉ and the influence that it is having on safety culture, and has expressed them before.

The CRR has been keeping Minister Ross appraised of the situation. In particular, the CRR has drawn the Minister's attention to Iɒs failure to act on the 2015 CRR recommendation that the Company should introduce formal procedures to ensure that the Safety Management System leads rather than lags the decision making process and that safety validation is carried out to inform decisions that may have an impact on safety or compliance with railway safety legislation.

The CRR has confirmed that it remains available to provide guidance and support to Iarnród Éireann as the Company navigates itself along a pathway from where it is to where it ought to be in respect of safety culture.

Infini · 18-09-2017 5:27pm

So your being critical because the staff are following safety procedures? o.O Theres just no winning with some people.....

Hilly Bill · 18-09-2017 5:36pm

Why the need to keep reposting the same link? What's your point in relation to this thread Devnull?

devnull · 18-09-2017 5:44pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Why the need to keep reposting the same link? What's your point in relation to this thread Devnull?

At the end of the day, if we're talking about safety then I think what a regulator says about safety is without a doubt relevant, if you don't feel that it is that you are perfectly entitled to have that view, just like anyone else is perfectly entitled to air their own views about the incident, we're not necessarily going to agree on everything however, clearly.

lucernarian · 18-09-2017 6:16pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Ah ye, just get the special steps and we will be grand.
Once a train is broken down and not likely to be moving soon then the first course of action is to get passengers off the train as soon as possible and that's what happend. It's not a case of just open all doors and letting passengers just scramble all over the place.

That simply doesn't appear to be the case. 1) because most if not all passengers removed themselves without any assistance from staff, so that's probably not what happened first and 2) some of the staff didn't look exactly busy prior to the detainment going by reports here.

Hilly Bill · 18-09-2017 6:24pm

devnull wrote: »

At the end of the day, if we're talking about safety then I think what a regulator says about safety is without a doubt relevant, if you don't feel that it is that you are perfectly entitled to have that view, just like anyone else is perfectly entitled to air their own views about the incident, we're not necessarily going to agree on everything however, clearly.

You missed the point though, is there a need to repost the same link multiple times in the same thread?

Hilly Bill · 18-09-2017 6:27pm

lucernarian wrote: »

That simply doesn't appear to be the case. 1) because most if not all passengers removed themselves without any assistance from staff, so that's probably not what happened first and 2) some of the staff didn't look exactly busy prior to the detainment going by reports here.

I'm sure the safety regulator will take into consideration the comments on here before making his report.

lucernarian · 18-09-2017 8:00pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I'm sure the safety regulator will take into consideration the comments on here before making his report.

I imagine passenger feedback will be sought (if the detraining is relevant to the investigation) and may have already been sought at this early stage of the investigation.

Jamie2k9 · 18-09-2017 8:33pm

devnull wrote: »

At the end of the day, if we're talking about safety then I think what a regulator says about safety is without a doubt relevant, if you don't feel that it is that you are perfectly entitled to have that view, just like anyone else is perfectly entitled to air their own views about the incident, we're not necessarily going to agree on everything however, clearly.

but the important thing to note is IE have not broken any safety rules.......

end of the road · 18-09-2017 9:01pm

CosmicJay wrote: »

The fact is no-one is going to sit on a train for over an hour with a bunch of Rail staff standing around pointing and talking at the problem rather than fixing it.

Keeping people in a train car for over an hour when all it takes is someone to bring some steps and help them disembark, escort them to the platform a few hundred yards away.

Its not rocket science, the fact that this basic task was unable to be completed in a timely fashion shows how broken our rail system is.

You accuse me of having blind hatred for the unions, maybe its your blind workship of IR that blinds you to the fact that in a modern fast paced commuter society, a bunch of lads standing around a train full of commuters with families to get home to is not really acceptable.

doesn't matter whether it's rocket science or not, the only people with the qualification, training and authority to bring some steps and help passengers disembark, escort passengers to the platform are IE staff. not you, not me, not anyone else. a timely fashion is the time it takes to get everything set up to insure safe removal of passengers from the train. that can be a few minutes, that can be an hour or more depending on a number of factors. it certainly won't be based on how much time me or you believe it should take.
i don't work for IE, but i don't have much sympathy for those who think it's exceptible to go out onto an operational railway when they aren't in any danger by remaining on the train. i have the same view for those who misuse level crossings or any other hazardess action when it comes to the operational railway. play with the railway and there will be only one winner.
a modern fast paced commuter society means jot. it doesn't excuse people thinking they can, or actually doing what they like because they are in a hurry.

lawlolawl · 18-09-2017 10:54pm

lucernarian wrote: »

I imagine passenger feedback will be sought (if the detraining is relevant to the investigation) and may have already been sought at this early stage of the investigation.

I work for IE and if there were no passengers injured then they will not even consider them in any investigation.

The staff did what they were supposed to do and that's all that matters.

If some clown had left the train under their own power against advice and got clipped by something on the other line then the staff would still be ok because they followed procedure.

devnull · 18-09-2017 11:41pm

lawlolawl wrote: »

I work for IE and if there were no passengers injured then they will not even consider them in any investigation.

The staff did what they were supposed to do and that's all that matters.

If some clown had left the train under their own power against advice and got clipped by something on the other line then the staff would still be ok because they followed procedure.

If you want any investigation to really improve things in future then it is vitally important that the investigation focuses on why certain things happened first and foremost rather than who should get the blame. The problem is that many investigations I've been involved in, in a number of industries primarily focus on finding someone to blame, rather than focusing on why certain things happened.

In aviation humans historicaly kept making the same mistakes because of the way the human brain works at the end of a chain of events. if we simply said that the humans are at fault and made bad decisions and that is all there is to it, we'd have had far more aviation accidents since we'd just put it down to human error and change nothing and the same errors would keep happening time after time.

But that doesn't prevent the same happening in the future, we have to look at the way that humans react to certain situations and put systems and procedures in place to ensure that they do not carry out those behaviours in the future since at the end of the day, we cannot control another human, but we can try and put things in place to make them less likely to take the actions they did.

lucernarian · 19-09-2017 1:44am

lawlolawl wrote: »

I work for IE and if there were no passengers injured then they will not even consider them in any investigation.

The staff did what they were supposed to do and that's all that matters.

If some clown had left the train under their own power against advice and got clipped by something on the other line then the staff would still be ok because they followed procedure.

At the very heart of this discussion is whether the passengers did anything wrong when getting off the train. It seems that no passengers were injured - if this wouldn't even form part of the investigation then this is quite possibly because there wasn't a safety issue to begin with when they did this? Otherwise I can't see how the RSC could ignore it.

The earlier reports about staff in Dun Laoghaire station are worrisome, some folks here allege that they didn't follow procedure. Whether the "procedure" itself is actually up to scratch... I don't know.

Jamie2k9 · 19-09-2017 5:22pm

lucernarian wrote: »

At the very heart of this discussion is whether the passengers did anything wrong when getting off the train. It seems that no passengers were injured - if this wouldn't even form part of the investigation then this is quite possibly because there wasn't a safety issue to begin with when they did this? Otherwise I can't see how the RSC could ignore it.

The earlier reports about staff in Dun Laoghaire station are worrisome, some folks here allege that they didn't follow procedure. Whether the "procedure" itself is actually up to scratch... I don't know.

The RAIU will investigate and produce a report on the accident. It will most likely contain a set of recommendations which should be implemented. The RSC will then examine the report and potentially take legal action against IE if there is a case and/or oversee various rule changes if the report makes such recommendations.

It is likely passengers actions on the night could influence some recommendations indirectly if the RAIU feel IE didn't handle it well even if they followed the current procedures. Whole point is ensure what happened doesn't again or at least under the same circumstances.

cython · 16-08-2018 9:48am

Report regarding this derailment is out.

RCA attributes it to human error on the part of the points operator, but also attributes this to gaps in the training process for operators. Very little emphasis on passengers detraining themselves, save that it was against the instructions on displays, and that announcements were made.

markpb · 16-08-2018 10:40am

cython wrote: »

RCA attributes it to human error on the part of the points operator, but also attributes this to gaps in the training process for operators. Very little emphasis on passengers detraining themselves, save that it was against the instructions on displays, and that announcements were made.

The great thing about safety investigation documents is that, unlike boards, the authors are tasked with finding the root cause, not someone to blame. It's easy to post here saying that it was all the passengers fault for selfishlessly abandoning the train but what the RAIU document actually says is that announcements were made but:

a significant number of passengers, carried out an number of uncontrolled impromptu evacuations, without the guidance of IÉ staff; this is likely due to the fact that the:
{snip}
Absence of information from Driver E222 of an estimated controlled evacuation time

This absence of controlled response, coupled with the frustration of the delayed passengers on board a train which was situated close to a platform, may have resulted in a significant number of passengers carrying out impromptu evacuations without the supervision of IÉ staff

the existing IÉ publications in relation to emergency responses and train evacuations, did not address the prevention of uncontrolled impromptu evacuations

which is a polite way for saying that IE have no plans for dealing with this situation, even though it has happened several times in the past.

Something like this will happen again in the future. Unless IE have a plan to deal with it (through better communication and better handling of the incident), impromptu evacuations will happen then too.

Infini · 16-08-2018 11:13am

Honestly I dont know why this is even an argument at this point. If people refuse to wait and take things into their own hands without waiting for staff instructions its on their heads and noone elses. Impatience is an excuse not a reason.

Jamie2k9 · 16-08-2018 11:11pm

25 minute gap between announcements is rather long and I don't think it helped the situation. in the normal course of operations drivers who are active on the PA usually do it 10-15 minutes.

Cookie_Monster · 16-08-2018 11:20pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

25 minute gap between announcements is rather long and I don't think it helped the situation. in the normal course of operations drivers who are active on the PA usually do it 10-15 minutes.

Thats gross incompetence in my book, not "rather long"

markpb · 16-08-2018 11:28pm

Infini wrote: »

Honestly I dont know why this is even an argument at this point. If people refuse to wait and take things into their own hands without waiting for staff instructions its on their heads and noone elses. Impatience is an excuse not a reason.

The RAIU didn't excuse the behaviour, it just pointed out that IR had no plan for how to deal with it. You can blame the people involved all you like but it's going to happen again. Has anything changed since this incident?

Infini · 16-08-2018 11:53pm

markpb wrote: »

The RAIU didn't excuse the behaviour, it just pointed out that IR had no plan for how to deal with it. You can blame the people involved all you like but it's going to happen again. Has anything changed since this incident?

It can take time to get people there, remember this happened during rush hour and with the line closed and heavy traffic it can make it even more difficult to get people there. Derailment's rarely happen on passenger services.

As for it happening again if people are too stupid to not wait for assistance and something happens its on their head. There's no excuse for taking thing's upon themselves when there's no threat to one's life. Said it before.

Cookie_Monster · 17-08-2018 12:00am

Infini wrote: »

There's no excuse for taking thing's upon themselves when there's no threat to one's life. Said it before.

the train has derailed and no announcements are forthcoming, how are people expected to know there is no threat under the circumstances? For all they know the driver could be incapacitated, the singaling system may not have activated properly, other trains may not be aware of the issue, the derailment could have caused shorts leading to fires and so on and so on.

devnull · 17-08-2018 6:34am

Infini wrote: »

Honestly I dont know why this is even an argument at this point. If people refuse to wait and take things into their own hands without waiting for staff instructions its on their heads and noone elses. Impatience is an excuse not a reason.

If this is the attitude that is taken by Irish Rail as well, it is no wonder that the safety regulator for railways has raised before that there are issues in relation to the safety culture within Irish Rail.

If we're in a situation where the RAIU investigates something like this and gives it's report and Irish Rail, like people on this board, are still complacent about it's findings and feel they do not have to address the concerns and points raised then that is very serious.

Irish Rail is set up as a publicly owned company to transport the public and needs to see looking after them and giving them timely information where possible as it's duty, not seeing them as an inconvenience that they could not care less about.

Del.Monte · 17-08-2018 7:31am

This lack of communication is immensely annoying for passengers even with minor hold-ups and it's a PR own goal by IE. Communication with passengers is so important and defuses problems very quickly.

Hilly Bill · 17-08-2018 10:54am

devnull wrote: »

If this is the attitude that is taken by Irish Rail as well, it is no wonder that the safety regulator for railways has raised before that there are issues in relation to the safety culture within Irish Rail.

If we're in a situation where the RAIU investigates something like this and gives it's report and Irish Rail, like people on this board, are still complacent about it's findings and feel they do not have to address the concerns and points raised then that is very serious.

Irish Rail is set up as a publicly owned company to transport the public and needs to see looking after them and giving them timely information where possible as it's duty, not seeing them as an inconvenience that they could not care less about.

The main bit there you mention is where possible. Nobody can you info that they don't have..

Nobody from Irish rail on here doesn't have to address any findings nor answer for anything you or anyone else has an issue with.
If you had an ounce of an idea about the safety culture within the company then you would realise that we can't move for safety and sometimes accidents happen and not once was it down to someone not caring about safety as they would be sacked..

Working class heroes · 17-08-2018 12:57pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The main bit there you mention is where possible. Nobody can you info that they don't have..

Nobody from Irish rail on here doesn't have to address any findings nor answer for anything you or anyone else has an issue with.
If you had an ounce of an idea about the safety culture within the company then you would realise that we can't move for safety and sometimes accidents happen and not once was it down to someone not caring about safety as they would be sacked..

Hi HB.
Accidents are a funny thing. Show me an accident and I’ll show you a way it could of been prevented. I believe the term “accidents happen “ as simply not true. They don’t just happen, they are caused.
On the safety culture within IE, have a read of this...
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-rail-staff-failing-to-report-near-misses-for-fear-of-being-reprimanded-31484298.html

Jamie2k9 · 17-08-2018 10:32pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Thats gross incompetence in my book, not "rather long"

I agree, I phrased it that way because I didn't get time to read the full report when I posted so didn't know if there were circumstances for long gaps.

Infini · 19-08-2018 2:29pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the train has derailed and no announcements are forthcoming, how are people expected to know there is no threat under the circumstances? For all they know the driver could be incapacitated, the singaling system may not have activated properly, other trains may not be aware of the issue, the derailment could have caused shorts leading to fires and so on and so on.

I already pointed out that if theres a threat to ones life like a fire then thats an acceptable and reasonable reason not to wait. Its not acceptable IMO when there is no threat at all and nothing is gonna change my opinion of that. Criticise the communication all you want but dont use it as justification to say its fine for people to do whatever they want because that just asking for more trouble.

Cookie_Monster · 19-08-2018 11:03pm

Infini wrote: »

I already pointed out that if theres a threat to ones life like a fire then thats an acceptable and reasonable reason not to wait. Its not acceptable IMO when there is no threat at all and nothing is gonna change my opinion of that. Criticise the communication all you want but dont use it as justification to say its fine for people to do whatever they want because that just asking for more trouble.

how do you know there is no threat though if no announcements are being made....

prinzeugen · 21-08-2018 12:32am

Working class heroes wrote: »

Hi HB.
Accidents are a funny thing. Show me an accident and I’ll show you a way it could of been prevented. I believe the term “accidents happen “ as simply not true. They don’t just happen, they are caused.
On the safety culture within IE, have a read of this...
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-rail-staff-failing-to-report-near-misses-for-fear-of-being-reprimanded-31484298.html

I will show you this. http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=144

The reports are pdf. How would you have prevented this? The highest speed railway accident in UK history. Crash barrier? Not having bogies tied by wire to the body?

Would love to hear your expertise on the issue.

Working class heroes · 21-08-2018 6:28am

prinzeugen wrote: »

I will show you this. http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=144

The reports are pdf. How would you have prevented this? The highest speed railway accident in UK history. Crash barrier? Not having bogies tied by wire to the body?

Would love to hear your expertise on the issue.

Less of your passive aggressive style if you don’t mind.
Are you honestly saying that this incident could not have been prevented?
Two minutes reading your link gave me one answer(the driver of the landrover was sleep deprived).
Did you even read your own link?

And just to say in general terms. If we are to accept accidents as inevitable what’s the point in trying to prevent them. So no I don’t and will never accept an accident as inevitable. That’s only a cop out.

prinzeugen · 21-08-2018 11:08pm

Working class heroes wrote: »

Less of your passive aggressive style if you don’t mind.
Are you honestly saying that this incident could not have been prevented?
Two minutes reading your link gave me one answer(the driver of the landrover was sleep deprived).
Did you even read your own link?

And just to say in general terms. If we are to accept accidents as inevitable what’s the point in trying to prevent them. So no I don’t and will never accept an accident as inevitable. That’s only a cop out.

I have read my link and have original documents from many rail accidents in the UK.

If you had more than two minutes worth you would see that there were other factors. Trains have hit cars at 125mph before. But little things made this one different. Had Heck happened just a few years earlier, the newspaper headlines would have said "miracle" not " disaster ".

Regarding people self evacuating. Irish Rail are in a no win position. And its society to blame.

Driver tells people the may be stuck for an hour? Idiots will say "feck this, I will walk" and self evacuate.

Driver tells people they have no idea how long they may be stuck? "False imprisonment", so open the doors and jump off. People are too impatient and self-important to care about safety in this day and age.

As I and others have said, anyone that "self evacuate" a train without a bloody good reason (fire or serious collision) should be tracked down and prosecuted in the courts.

Working class heroes · 22-08-2018 6:22am

prinzeugen wrote: »

I have read my link and have original documents from many rail accidents in the UK.

If you had more than two minutes worth you would see that there were other factors. Trains have hit cars at 125mph before. But little things made this one different. Had Heck happened just a few years earlier, the newspaper headlines would have said "miracle" not " disaster ".

Regarding people self evacuating. Irish Rail are in a no win position. And its society to blame.

Driver tells people the may be stuck for an hour? Idiots will say "feck this, I will walk" and self evacuate.

Driver tells people they have no idea how long they may be stuck? "False imprisonment", so open the doors and jump off. People are too impatient and self-important to care about safety in this day and age.

As I and others have said, anyone that "self evacuate" a train without a bloody good reason (fire or serious collision) should be tracked down and prosecuted in the courts.

So you are saying that accident was inevitable?
That it could not have been prevented.
Really?
Because that is absolute and utter nonsense.

[13/9/2017] DART derailment at Dún Laoghaire

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