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[13/9/2017] DART derailment at Dún Laoghaire
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It would be quicker if they changed on the platform.end of the road wrote: »nothing to do with the unions.
you wouldn't have been able to get to the driver as his cab is locked to keep it secure.
they have to change at the depot to insure a quicker change-over time. it's a nucence granted but i guess it is what it is0 -
It is everything to do with unions because it is an agreement with unions that staff have to change at the depot rather than at Clontarf Road station.
I'm not sure how you think it's quicker, because what happens is the train stops once and about 10 seconds later it stops again, if it would stop once it would save time due to the basic rules of physics relating to decelerating, stopping and accelerating again being slower than not slowing down or stopping.
It's the drivers refusal and they lost a pay claim. They wanted a stupid amount to change but the company told them not a chance.0 -
Dr Crayfish wrote: »Ok so why can't they explain what's going on? And why can't they explain what's going on when it stops coming out of Connolly every bloody day? Is it something to do with congestion? I don't even know, so they should be announcing something. We pay pretty high fares to use the shoddy service but it's got no respect for the customer.
And I could talk to the driver, nearly every time you get out the driver has his head out the window looking back to make sure everyone has got on/off.
Trains tend to stop at red signals from time to time.0 -
To be perfectly honest some people are RIGHT to be critical of some passengers. Maybe not all but there's some people that don't wait for instructions even though there's no threat to their safety they're too impatient and will just decide they're gonna do what they like and not wait for official guidance from staff. The problem is these people can cause others to follow thinking they can go too (sheep mentality) and risk putting others in danger.
I'll be honest some of these kinds of people are the worst to deal with because they're full of themselves and aren't interested in listening or following instructions because they're too arrogant, impatient and thinking they're smart (to prove point someone mentioned staff tried to stop people just getting off only for the same kind of person to open the doors on ANOTHER carriage). Lets say there was a live electrical cable nearby that had been dislodged and staff were waiting on it to be disconnected or waiting for the go ahead from whoever is in charge and this kind of person decides to do what they do. Others could follow and one of them could run into that cable untittingly and be elecrocuted. Then what? The ones giving out about people being critical of passengers would be the first to try and say its IR's fault or look for some other excuse even though it was the person who refused to wait for official instructions fault who caused that to happen!
Wether they like it or not people aren't left on a train because the staff aren't bothered they're on the train because in situations like this staff have to follow the guidelines that they've been told to follow regardless of how "inconvenient" it is. They follow these procedures for safety reasons. The line isn't suitable for normal people to walk on there's trip hazards which requires staff to wear non slip footwear with steel toed caps when on the line not to mention the fact that there's high voltage electricity nearby that can kill a person.
The only real time it's wise to use the door release without staff instruction is if there's an immediate threat to life like a fire for example as there's a greater chance of loss of life from burns than being hit by another train.
Well said. Have the same "sheep" issues where I work. 50,000 people following the flock.
And arrogance is the biggest problem.0 -
Proving my point really.To be perfectly honest some people are RIGHT to be critical of some passengers. Maybe not all but there's some people that don't wait for instructions even though there's no threat to their safety they're too impatient and will just decide they're gonna do what they like and not wait for official guidance from staff. The problem is these people can cause others to follow thinking they can go too (sheep mentality) and risk putting others in danger.
I'll be honest some of these kinds of people are the worst to deal with because they're full of themselves and aren't interested in listening or following instructions because they're too arrogant, impatient and thinking they're smart (to prove point someone mentioned staff tried to stop people just getting off only for the same kind of person to open the doors on ANOTHER carriage). Lets say there was a live electrical cable nearby that had been dislodged and staff were waiting on it to be disconnected or waiting for the go ahead from whoever is in charge and this kind of person decides to do what they do. Others could follow and one of them could run into that cable untittingly and be elecrocuted. Then what? The ones giving out about people being critical of passengers would be the first to try and say its IR's fault or look for some other excuse even though it was the person who refused to wait for official instructions fault who caused that to happen!
Wether they like it or not people aren't left on a train because the staff aren't bothered they're on the train because in situations like this staff have to follow the guidelines that they've been told to follow regardless of how "inconvenient" it is. They follow these procedures for safety reasons. The line isn't suitable for normal people to walk on there's trip hazards which requires staff to wear non slip footwear with steel toed caps when on the line not to mention the fact that there's high voltage electricity nearby that can kill a person.
The only real time it's wise to use the door release without staff instruction is if there's an immediate threat to life like a fire for example as there's a greater chance of loss of life from burns than being hit by another train.
This is a known phenomenon. In the absence of information group mentality takes over and the sheeple make their own decisions. That's why crisis management puts an emphasis on providing fast clear instructions and reassurance. But continue to blame the customers if it helps.0 -
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To be perfectly honest some people are RIGHT to be critical of some passengers. Maybe not all but there's some people that don't wait for instructions even though there's no threat to their safety they're too impatient and will just decide they're gonna do what they like and not wait for official guidance from staff. The problem is these people can cause others to follow thinking they can go too (sheep mentality) and risk putting others in danger.
I'll be honest some of these kinds of people are the worst to deal with because they're full of themselves and aren't interested in listening or following instructions because they're too arrogant, impatient and thinking they're smart (to prove point someone mentioned staff tried to stop people just getting off only for the same kind of person to open the doors on ANOTHER carriage). Lets say there was a live electrical cable nearby that had been dislodged and staff were waiting on it to be disconnected or waiting for the go ahead from whoever is in charge and this kind of person decides to do what they do. Others could follow and one of them could run into that cable untittingly and be elecrocuted. Then what? The ones giving out about people being critical of passengers would be the first to try and say its IR's fault or look for some other excuse even though it was the person who refused to wait for official instructions fault who caused that to happen!
Wether they like it or not people aren't left on a train because the staff aren't bothered they're on the train because in situations like this staff have to follow the guidelines that they've been told to follow regardless of how "inconvenient" it is. They follow these procedures for safety reasons. The line isn't suitable for normal people to walk on there's trip hazards which requires staff to wear non slip footwear with steel toed caps when on the line not to mention the fact that there's high voltage electricity nearby that can kill a person.
The only real time it's wise to use the door release without staff instruction is if there's an immediate threat to life like a fire for example as there's a greater chance of loss of life from burns than being hit by another train.
Back to customer blaming I see, into the world where Irish Rail are perfect, the customers apparently get what they deserve and saying that the staff are the victims here. That's why Irish Rail are so poor at dealing with customers, because every time something happens they blame someone else instead of learning what could be done better in future.
There are problems that exist in the company in relation to communications during incidents and have been for some time, hiding behind due process as an excuse for keeping passengers in the dark for up to an hour is pathetic, considering that most railway operators in the world have a rule that passengers should be contacted within 5 minutes of any unexpected stop at the latest.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that people are trying to avoid the fact that Irish Rail could have handled this better and better communications may have prevented it. It's symbolic of the attitude to customers throughout the company and clearly there are also questions in relation to safety procedures and culture as have been outlined by the CRR
Maybe you ought to go back and watch a few air crash investigation programs for example. When an accident happens normally happens they don't just say, oh a human did something stupid, it is their own fault end of story, lets wrap it up and just write a report slagging them off, they look at what led to it happening to ensure that they can put procedures in place so it doesn't happen again.
As for arrogance perhaps one should read a few documents in relation to the CRR in relation to the culture in IE.0 -
Where is he blaming the customers and claiming the staff are victims?
No offence intended devnull but you haven't a clue. Passengers were informed from the first moment of delay plus constantly after the derailment. It's not like Dublin bus where the driver can just open all the doors and let people off onto the platform, a safe system of work has to be put in place before you can take people off a train mid section or you risk injuries. Opening doors trying to be the hero could have led to a stampede but sure if it had caused injuries you couldn't blame them could you.0 -
Back to customer blaming I see, into the world where Irish Rail are perfect, the customers apparently get what they deserve and saying that the staff are the victims here. That's why Irish Rail are so poor at dealing with customers, because every time something happens they blame someone else instead of learning what could be done better in future.
There are problems that exist in the company in relation to communications during incidents and have been for some time, hiding behind due process as an excuse for keeping passengers in the dark for up to an hour is pathetic, considering that most railway operators in the world have a rule that passengers should be contacted within 5 minutes of any unexpected stop at the latest.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that people are trying to avoid the fact that Irish Rail could have handled this better and better communications may have prevented it. It's symbolic of the attitude to customers throughout the company and clearly there are also questions in relation to safety procedures and culture as have been outlined by the CRR
Maybe you ought to go back and watch a few air crash investigation programs for example. When an accident happens normally happens they don't just say, oh a human did something stupid, it is their own fault end of story, lets wrap it up and just write a report slagging them off, they look at what led to it happening to ensure that they can put procedures in place so it doesn't happen again.
As for arrogance perhaps one should read a few documents in relation to the CRR in relation to the culture in IE.
where did he say irish rail is perfect? where did he say irish rail staff are victims? if someone decides to go out on to the railway off their own back that is their fault. why don't we all just jump out onto the railway tracks when we feel like it when the train is stopped for a bit, because most of us know that a railway is not a place for people who don't know what they are doing to be on, and that is dispite not having any railway back ground. nearly everyone has agreed irish rail were wrong in their handling. not communicating and providing information is their fault, but that doesn't excuse people jumping out on to the railway tracks when there was no emergency, and if the worst did happen then why should i be expected to have sympathy? sometimes, just sometimes, you have to tell people their behaviour is rong, that they are wrong. you don't have to have a railway back ground to be of that view.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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suicide_circus wrote: »
Proving my point really.To be perfectly honest some people are RIGHT to be critical of some passengers. Maybe not all but there's some people that don't wait for instructions even though there's no threat to their safety they're too impatient and will just decide they're gonna do what they like and not wait for official guidance from staff. The problem is these people can cause others to follow thinking they can go too (sheep mentality) and risk putting others in danger.
I'll be honest some of these kinds of people are the worst to deal with because they're full of themselves and aren't interested in listening or following instructions because they're too arrogant, impatient and thinking they're smart (to prove point someone mentioned staff tried to stop people just getting off only for the same kind of person to open the doors on ANOTHER carriage). Lets say there was a live electrical cable nearby that had been dislodged and staff were waiting on it to be disconnected or waiting for the go ahead from whoever is in charge and this kind of person decides to do what they do. Others could follow and one of them could run into that cable untittingly and be elecrocuted. Then what? The ones giving out about people being critical of passengers would be the first to try and say its IR's fault or look for some other excuse even though it was the person who refused to wait for official instructions fault who caused that to happen!
Wether they like it or not people aren't left on a train because the staff aren't bothered they're on the train because in situations like this staff have to follow the guidelines that they've been told to follow regardless of how "inconvenient" it is. They follow these procedures for safety reasons. The line isn't suitable for normal people to walk on there's trip hazards which requires staff to wear non slip footwear with steel toed caps when on the line not to mention the fact that there's high voltage electricity nearby that can kill a person.
The only real time it's wise to use the door release without staff instruction is if there's an immediate threat to life like a fire for example as there's a greater chance of loss of life from burns than being hit by another train.
This is a known phenomenon. In the absence of information group mentality takes over and the sheeple make their own decisions. That's why crisis management puts an emphasis on providing fast clear instructions and reassurance. But continue to blame the customers if it helps.
To be honest from reading what some people have posted it sounds like people WERE being informed the problem is certain individuals (the ones i referred to) will simply not wait until staff were able to detrain people and acted on their own even though there no immediate risk to their safety. Is it right that people are stuck on a train for nearly an hour? No it isnt but neither is ignoring instructions either or refusing to wait for staff to be able to act.
The only problem as well is those who criticise me for "blaming the passengers" (specifically those i referred to) is the argument seems that everything is all on one side (in this case the company). This seems to be a serious problem in general these days with society because it seems to be a case of everything is the fault of everyone else but themselves. Things could be done better theres no denying that but neither is their any excuse for excusing all blame from those individuals expecially when theres no immediate threat to ones life. If there had been a damaged overhead that lead to people being killed and passengers were informed beforehand not to move people would still try and blame anyone else except those indivuals who ignored instructions. That really just annoys me.0 -
The driver did announce a detraining to happen soon shortly before a poster here saw other passengers getting off. I just can't see how passengers were told any better unless they were explicitly told not to get off until an Irish rail employee said so. Why is this lost on so many people?0
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Hilly Bill wrote: »Passengers were informed from the first moment of delay plus constantly after the derailment. It's not like Dublin bus where the driver can just open all the doors and let people off onto the platform, a safe system of work has to be put in place before you can take people off a train mid section or you risk injuries. Opening doors trying to be the hero could have led to a stampede but sure if it had caused injuries you couldn't blame them could you.
So basically you're saying that people from here, people from Rail Users Ireland and people on twitter are just making up that they heard nothing all because they have a grip with Irish Rail and yourself, know what happened on all of the trains that evening and could happen to be in multiple places at once?end of the road wrote: »where did he say irish rail is perfect? where did he say irish rail staff are victims? if someone decides to go out on to the railway off their own back that is their fault. why don't we all just jump out onto the railway tracks when we feel like it when the train is stopped for a bit.
sometimes, just sometimes, you have to tell people their behaviour is rong, that they are wrong. you don't have to have a railway back ground to be of that view.
Or you can take steps to see what can be changed to prevent the actions taking place in the first place, which is pretty much how the aviation and other safety critical sectors learn from accidents, because it's considered part of safety culture and best practice to do that and also include human factors rather than saying simply, someone made a bad decision, lets close the book.
Next time there is an aviation disaster and a pilot makes a mistake, do you think that we should simply say, hey, it's just a human who made a wrong or illogical decision, who cares if we could have done something to have made it less likely to happen, at the end of the day it was their decision, nothing to do with us guv.
The CRR stated that there is an issue with safety culture in Irish Rail and they would not have said that unless there was a reason to believe that it is actually the case so I'd ask you to bear that in mind before you feel that Irish Rail have no part to play in this.To be honest from reading what some people have posted it sounds like people WERE being informed the problem is certain individuals (the ones i referred to) will simply not wait until staff were able to detrain people and acted on their own even though there no immediate risk to their safety. Is it right that people are stuck on a train for nearly an hour? No it isnt but neither is ignoring instructions either or refusing to wait for staff to be able to act.
Passengers shouldn't have to wait for a long period to be given information, in the UK for example it's required for information be made within 2 minutes and given regular updates and best practice following an incident for a staff member such as the driver to walk through the train and assess the condition of the injured to asses anyone who may need assistance and then phone that through to make sure they are given adequate medical attention.The only problem as well is those who criticise me for "blaming the passengers" (specifically those i referred to) is the argument seems that everything is all on one side (in this case the company). This seems to be a serious problem in general these days with society because it seems to be a case of everything is the fault of everyone else but themselves.
When I once did a investigation into a project at work that went wrong, one of the most important things that the people involved learnt was to focus on what you can control rather than what you cannot control and rather than getting yourself high and mighty with what someone else did or didn't do instead focus on your own shortcomings and doing the best that you can.
The reason is because when a certain party have made a mistake in any project or situation they will always try and point fingers at other people as that way they don't have to fully digest what they could have done better or take any actions themselves and simply point the finger at the last step in a very long chain of events.
This is what is known as Blame Culture. Blame culture is a serious problem in any company since it leads to a situation where the person to take the last action gets the full weight of the blame to avoid proper scrutiny of everything which led up to these events. This means that because the last person gets the blame, nothing is done to prevent this from happening again.
This contrasts with those in which the problem leading to a mistake is identified and improvements are made to prevent the chain of events from happening again. For example, it could be that Irish Rail make it a requirement for their staff to make announcements within certain number of minutes of a train stopping and at a certain interval thereafter.
But what I really fear will happen here is we'll just say the passengers shouldn't have got off and that Irish Rail will not do a single thing to fix their failings because they'll just blame the passengers rather than thinking about what they can do to reassure the passengers and have a more customer friendly policy of dealing with incidents like those in the UK and the rest of Europe.0 -
Or you can take steps to see what can be changed to prevent the actions taking place in the first place, which is pretty much how the aviation and other safety critical sectors learn from accidents, because it's considered part of safety culture and best practice to do that and also include human factors rather than saying simply, someone made a bad decision, lets close the book.
you can and should do that as well yes.Next time there is an aviation disaster and a pilot makes a mistake, do you think that we should simply say, hey, it's just a human who made a wrong or illogical decision, who cares if we could have done something to have made it less likely to happen, at the end of the day it was their decision, nothing to do with us guv.
no, of course not and that won't happen. but in my view people still have personal responsibility not to be going out onto a live railway when not in danger.The CRR stated that there is an issue with safety culture in Irish Rail and they would not have said that unless there was a reason to believe that it is actually the case
i agree and that is concerning and must be addressed. but in my view that isn't an excuse for passengers deciding to go onto the railway when they were in no danger.so I'd ask you to bear that in mind before you feel that Irish Rail have no part to play in this.
i have given my opinion on irish rail's part a plenty and have said that their communication wasn't up to scratch. but i cannot and will not change my view that people had no legitimate excuse to be going out onto the railway in this case.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »no, of course not and that won't happen. but in my view people still have personal responsibility not to be going out onto a live railway when not in danger.
The most important things about learning lessons from incidents such as this is to focus on what you can control rather than what you cannot control. No matter how much you moan about the other side, it is not going to achieve anything at the end of the day because you cannot control it.
In these situations you have to look at how you handled the situation and see if there was anything better that you could have done which may have prevented the incident or made it less likely to happen. This is what Irish Rail should be doing, because for all the moaning about passengers, it won't change anything.
It's like in many aviation disasters down the years, humans keep making the same mistakes because of either the way the human body or the human brain works at the end of a chain of events. if we simply said that the humans are at fault we'd have had far more people who died over the last number of years from aviation accidents.
In these situations what the industry has done is invested a massive amount of time and money, saying that whilst we cannot stop humans from reacting in certain ways to certain situations, we can take actions to make sure that they are less likely or in many cases, never likely to be in those situations because we prevent them from ever being put into that situation.
Best way to stop people doing undesirable things in certain stressful or confusing situations or at a time of panic is to make sure that those situations don't arise in the first place.0 -
So basically you're saying that people from here, people from Rail Users Ireland and people on twitter are just making up that they heard nothing all because they have a grip with Irish Rail and yourself, know what happened on all of the trains that evening and could happen to be in multiple places at once?
Or you can take steps to see what can be changed to prevent the actions taking place in the first place, which is pretty much how the aviation and other safety critical sectors learn from accidents, because it's considered part of safety culture and best practice to do that and also include human factors rather than saying simply, someone made a bad decision, lets close the book.
Next time there is an aviation disaster and a pilot makes a mistake, do you think that we should simply say, hey, it's just a human who made a wrong or illogical decision, who cares if we could have done something to have made it less likely to happen, at the end of the day it was their decision, nothing to do with us guv.
The CRR stated that there is an issue with safety culture in Irish Rail and they would not have said that unless there was a reason to believe that it is actually the case so I'd ask you to bear that in mind before you feel that Irish Rail have no part to play in this.
Passengers shouldn't have to wait for a long period to be given information, in the UK for example it's required for information be made within 2 minutes and given regular updates and best practice following an incident for a staff member such as the driver to walk through the train and assess the condition of the injured to asses anyone who may need assistance and then phone that through to make sure they are given adequate medical attention.
When I once did a investigation into a project at work that went wrong, one of the most important things that the people involved learnt was to focus on what you can control rather than what you cannot control and rather than getting yourself high and mighty with what someone else did or didn't do instead focus on your own shortcomings and doing the best that you can.
The reason is because when a certain party have made a mistake in any project or situation they will always try and point fingers at other people as that way they don't have to fully digest what they could have done better or take any actions themselves and simply point the finger at the last step in a very long chain of events.
This is what is known as Blame Culture. Blame culture is a serious problem in any company since it leads to a situation where the person to take the last action gets the full weight of the blame to avoid proper scrutiny of everything which led up to these events. This means that because the last person gets the blame, nothing is done to prevent this from happening again.
This contrasts with those in which the problem leading to a mistake is identified and improvements are made to prevent the chain of events from happening again. For example, it could be that Irish Rail make it a requirement for their staff to make announcements within certain number of minutes of a train stopping and at a certain interval thereafter.
But what I really fear will happen here is we'll just say the passengers shouldn't have got off and that Irish Rail will not do a single thing to fix their failings because they'll just blame the passengers rather than thinking about what they can do to reassure the passengers and have a more customer friendly policy of dealing with incidents like those in the UK and the rest of Europe.
I'd directly mention if i thought anything was personal. If i didn't then i don't think it. Passengers was given info pretty quickly. Can you please copy and paste anything that you can find where any official report from Irish rail regarding the accident where they blame it on the passengers?0 -
This is what Irish rail should be doing? Do you honestly believe that Irish rail don't want to prevent accidents? 😀The most important things about learning lessons from incidents such as this is to focus on what you can control rather than what you cannot control. No matter how much you moan about the other side, it is not going to achieve anything at the end of the day because you cannot control it.
In these situations you have to look at how you handled the situation and see if there was anything better that you could have done which may have prevented the incident or made it less likely to happen. This is what Irish Rail should be doing, because for all the moaning about passengers, it won't change anything.
It's like in many aviation disasters down the years, humans keep making the same mistakes because of either the way the human body or the human brain works at the end of a chain of events. if we simply said that the humans are at fault we'd have had far more people who died over the last number of years from aviation accidents.
In these situations what the industry has done is invested a massive amount of time and money, saying that whilst we cannot stop humans from reacting in certain ways to certain situations, we can take actions to make sure that they are less likely or in many cases, never likely to be in those situations because we prevent them from ever being put into that situation.
Best way to stop people doing undesirable things in certain stressful or confusing situations or at a time of panic is to make sure that those situations don't arise in the first place.0 -
Hilly Bill wrote: »Passengers was given info pretty quickly.
How can you say that all passengers were given info pretty quickly unless you were in multiple places at once, bearing in mind there are several units making up the incident train and some of the reports were from other trains, did you manage to be in all these places at once since you are giving a matter of fact response?
Are you saying that other people on Twitter, or Rail Users Ireland and on here are all making it up and you know better, despite the fact you could not possibly be in every single carriage on every single train that was caught up in this?Can you please copy and paste anything that you can find where any official report from Irish rail regarding the accident where they blame it on the passengers?
Where did I say that Irish Rail would blame the passengers, I never said this so I would appreciate it if you did not misquote me - I simply said that it is what I fear will happen based on the views of some of those on this thread who tend to have normally similar views to that of Irish Rail, my comments about blame culture was about how blame culture works in general.
What is a fact however is that there have been reservations raised about the organisational culture in IÉ and the influence that it is having on safety culture and there is a desire to change this so Safety Management leads rather than lags the decision making process and that safety validation is carried out to inform decisions that may have an impact on compliance with railway safety legislation.0 -
Hilly Bill wrote: »This is what Irish rail should be doing? Do you honestly believe that Irish rail don't want to prevent accidents? 😀
All I know is last month concerns were raised to the Minister in relation to the safety culture in the organisation, I guess people can make their own minds up on that at the end of the day.
https://www.crr.ie/press/2017/08/23/crr-concerned-about-safety-culture-in-iarnrod-eire/The annual report makes it clear that the CRR has reservations about the organisational culture in IÉ and the influence that it is having on safety culture, and has expressed them before.
The CRR has been keeping Minister Ross appraised of the situation. In particular, the CRR has drawn the Minister's attention to Iɒs failure to act on the 2015 CRR recommendation that the Company should introduce formal procedures to ensure that the Safety Management System leads rather than lags the decision making process and that safety validation is carried out to inform decisions that may have an impact on safety or compliance with railway safety legislation.
The CRR has confirmed that it remains available to provide guidance and support to Iarnród Éireann as the Company navigates itself along a pathway from where it is to where it ought to be in respect of safety culture.0 -
Exactly, that's all you know.0
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How can you say that all passengers were given info pretty quickly unless you were in multiple places at once, bearing in mind there are several units making up the incident train and some of the reports were from other trains, did you manage to be in all these places at once since you are giving a matter of fact response?
Are you saying that other people on Twitter, or Rail Users Ireland and on here are all making it up and you know better, despite the fact you could not possibly be in every single carriage on every single train that was caught up in this?
Where did I say that Irish Rail would blame the passengers, I never said this so I would appreciate it if you did not misquote me - I simply said that it is what I fear will happen based on the views of some of those on this thread who tend to have normally similar views to that of Irish Rail, my comments about blame culture was about how blame culture works in general.
What is a fact however is that there have been reservations raised about the organisational culture in IÉ and the influence that it is having on safety culture and there is a desire to change this so Safety Management leads rather than lags the decision making process and that safety validation is carried out to inform decisions that may have an impact on compliance with railway safety legislation.
Oh dear god,you are struggling now devnull. I've a better source of info than rail users Ireland to start off with which includeds the actual cause of the derailment which will drive this thread into a meltdown once you find out ��
Do you seriously think that comments on here has any bearing on the safety culture in Irish Rail? Look back through your responses to see the bit where you say that Irish rail would rather blame the passengers than take responsibility for an accident.0 -
Hilly Bill wrote: »Oh dear god,you are struggling now devnull. I've a better source of info than rail users Ireland to start off with which includeds the actual cause of the derailment which will drive this thread into a meltdown once you find out
So what you're basically saying that a body that has been set-up to represent Rail Users and have a track record of representing them is not a good source and a more reliable source would be an annoymous poster on boards such as yourself who doesn't substaniate that claim?Do you seriously think that comments on here has any bearing on the safety culture in Irish Rail?
It has been expressed by professionals who have had to raise the issue to the Minister that there is concerns in relation to the organisational and safety culture in Irish Rail, no matter what you say, this is a fact and nothing can change that.Look back through your responses to see the bit where you say that Irish rail would rather blame the passengers than take responsibility for an accident.
You are the one who brought it up, go ahead and do it, if you can find a direct place where I said it as a matter of fact that they were to blame for this accident then go ahead.0 -
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Keep trying.
"That's why Irish Rail are so poor at dealing with customers, because every time something happens they blame someone else instead of learning what could be done better in future."0 -
I never said that Irish Rail blamed the passengers for this specific accident so I'm not sure where you got that idea from, I did say that Irish Rail have a history of blaming passengers for issues to absolve themselves of the blame and I stand by that and have experienced it myself on a number of occasions, for example, when a station was without proper lighting for over a week and on the first evening I complained it was unsafe they told me that if I am traveling in the dark I should take a torch or if I want travel advice during disruption I should cop on and walk to the customer service point at Connolly rather than expect announcements on the platform.
At the end of the day I've never said what those passengers did was right simply that I can understand it and the best way to prevent it happening again is to make sure that such an accident never happens again and if it does to offer a better level of reassurance to passengers so they are not in a position of panic. Simply saying that all there is to it is the passengers were wrong or stupid won't do anything to prevent the situation happening in the future and the whole point of an investigation is to prevent a re-occurance in the future which is more important than deciding who is to blame.
If we simply said every single flight that was the result of pilot error was the fault of the pilot so we should just put it down to someone doing something silly and not investigate why he did something silly, our skies would be far less safe and there would be many more plane crashes than there are nowadays as the same mistakes would keep happening.0 -
Hilly Bill wrote: »Keep trying.
"That's why Irish Rail are so poor at dealing with customers, because every time something happens they blame someone else instead of learning what could be done better in future."
You originally asked me:Can you please copy and paste anything that you can find where any official report from Irish rail regarding the accident where they blame it on the passengers?
I have never said Irish Rail have blamed the accident on the passengers, I'm not quite sure the point that you are getting at here, but nowhere in that quote do I say that Irish Rail blamed the passengers for the accident, I think you are reading things into my quote which are not there unfortunately.
What I was actually saying was that in the past ever time that something happens they normally end up blaming the customers rather than learning from the incident. This is absloutely my experience with Irish Rail who I saw the same mistakes happen on a regular basis and each time they would not take any responsability for it, such as the two situations I outlined above.
I never made any comment on the overall accident saying that Irish Rail blamed the passengers for it, but if you can find a quote where I have said specifically for this accident that Irish Rail have blamed the passengers for it, go ahead, but I haven't said it because Irish Rail haven't blamed anyone for the overall accident and I've never claimed as such.0 -
suicide_circus wrote: »Proving my point really.
This is a known phenomenon. In the absence of information group mentality takes over and the sheeple make their own decisions. That's why crisis management puts an emphasis on providing fast clear instructions and reassurance. But continue to blame the customers if it helps.
Nobody is blaming customers, just pointing out their actions were irresponsible and could of caused serious injury.
I would expect after the first door opening, there would of been some announcement made by the train crew after they closed them.Back to customer blaming I see, into the world where Irish Rail are perfect, the customers apparently get what they deserve and saying that the staff are the victims here. That's why Irish Rail are so poor at dealing with customers, because every time something happens they blame someone else instead of learning what could be done better in future.
There are problems that exist in the company in relation to communications during incidents and have been for some time, hiding behind due process as an excuse for keeping passengers in the dark for up to an hour is pathetic, considering that most railway operators in the world have a rule that passengers should be contacted within 5 minutes of any unexpected stop at the latest.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that people are trying to avoid the fact that Irish Rail could have handled this better and better communications may have prevented it. It's symbolic of the attitude to customers throughout the company and clearly there are also questions in relation to safety procedures and culture as have been outlined by the CRR
Maybe you ought to go back and watch a few air crash investigation programs for example. When an accident happens normally happens they don't just say, oh a human did something stupid, it is their own fault end of story, lets wrap it up and just write a report slagging them off, they look at what led to it happening to ensure that they can put procedures in place so it doesn't happen again.
As for arrogance perhaps one should read a few documents in relation to the CRR in relation to the culture in IE.
Nobody is blaming customers nor even attempting to justify IE appalling communication at various times. I don't think anybody can deny it wasn't IE finest monument in terms of handling however it's not a "black and while" situation.
The CRR fallout was over something so minor I don't know why it's dragged on this long. The CRR have failed to publish anything of substance to date about the problems they have.0 -
The CRR fallout was over something so minor I don't know why it's dragged on this long. The CRR have failed to publish anything of substance to date about the problems they have.
So basically you are saying that there is no problem with safety culture since there is only a minor problems in this area and nothing to really worry about at the end of the day? How would you define what a safety culture is?0 -
So basically you are saying that there is no problem with safety culture since there is only a minor problems in this area and nothing to really worry about at the end of the day? How would you define what a safety culture is?
Not saying anything of the sort however if the risks were significant I don't think the CRR would sit back and tolerate it. They have a lot of legal avenues available to them and have yet to act (or that I know of).
It would also be in the CRR interest to make it public because it's a very effective tool to force change if it's required.0 -
Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.
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Working class heroes wrote: »
That article is from 18 months ago, the CRR expressed reservations as recently as last month.0 -
Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.
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