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[13/9/2017] DART derailment at Dún Laoghaire

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    #32
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    Colonel Claptrap wrote: »
    Typically speaking, what can cause a derailment like this?

    How frequent do derailments happen in Ireland?

    How is the train rerailed? Is that even a word?

    Thanks.

    In this case it was probably a tie bar failure. It is a facing point also which does not help things. (The Grayrigg accident in the UK was caused the same way).

    Its why railways try to avoid facing points where possible.

    The unit will be jacked. Here is a 2 min video of how its done.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=puiKWMlAGtM


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    #33
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    In this case it was probably a tie bar failure. It is a facing point also which does not help things. (The Grayrigg accident in the UK was caused the same way).

    Its why railways try to avoid facing points where possible.

    The points themselves are the ones that lead into the bay platform in Dun Laohaire (Platform 3). Would say those points are gonna be out of action for a little while as they'll likely have to scotch and clip them in the normal position until a proper repair can be done on them. Will prolly mess up a couple of trains in the evening as there's one or 2 that tend to turn around at that location.


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    #34
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    Something went wrong on the interlocking or tie bars on the points.

    If the points are at fault, a clip will not do. Replace.

    I look forward to reading the report into this as Irish Rail has a very good safety record compared to the UK.


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    #35
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    I look forward to reading the report into this as Irish Rail has a very good safety record compared to the UK.

    What a surprise that a railway system with slower lines, less tracks, far less trains, simpler infrastructure, less bridges and levels crossings, less busy infrastructure, with worse operating hours and carries approx 43,000,000 passengers than a British System that carried 1,600,000,000 has less incidents.

    UK is far from unsafe, one of the safest railways in Europe including to EU data based on passenger km / per incident which is the best way to judge it.

    We'll just have to see what the investigation brings at the end of the day before pointing blame on this.


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    #36
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    No air, your still alive yes??

    You know priority will be given by the controllers to the actual incident before you guys. You would have the exact same outside Ireland.

    Never been stuck on a train with windows that don't open for a period of time no? When it's sitting there idle for a long period of time it gets rather stifling and uncomfortable. Doesn't even need to be full for that to happen.


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    #37
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,145 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    There was no need for the uncontrolled evacuation last night. The train had stood at Salthill for 30 minutes previously, many folks had already gotten off and walked. All the coaches had numerous windows which opened

    Weather conditions where 14C so conditions in no way required immediate evacuation


    What went wrong was
    1. Failure to communicate
    2. Failure to get the controlled detrainment underway in a reasonable timeframe, especially given the proximity of Dun Laoghaire
    3. Failure to get staff on board the train to walk through to ensure passengers were assessed for those who may not be able to climb down


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    #38
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,674 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    No air, your still alive yes??

    You know priority will be given by the controllers to the actual incident before you guys. You would have the exact same outside Ireland.

    Never been stuck on a train with windows that don't open for a period of time no? When it's sitting there idle for a long period of time it gets rather stifling and uncomfortable. Doesn't even need to be full for that to happen.

    In fact I have 7h15m and 8h have been two of my longest delays.


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    #39
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    In fact I have 7h15m and 8h have been two of my longest delays.

    So you are well aware of the experience the other guy put forward, but went on to have a go at him instead? :rolleyes:


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    #40
    Mousewar
    Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭Mousewar


    To be honest I didn't realise it was an unofficial detraining. Everyone just started moving into the front carriage and I saw folk on the railway so I assumed it was official. It was only when I jumped off and some guy in a orange vest shouted at me that I realised this was a jailbreak. :)


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    #41
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,145 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Mousewar wrote: »
    To be honest I didn't realise it was an unofficial detraining. Everyone just started moving into the front carriage and I saw folk on the railway so I assumed it was official. It was only when I jumped off and some guy in a orange vest shouted at me that I realised this was a jailbreak. :)

    Thats the big problem, you discovered its a long way down from the floor to the ground and did not have the benefit of a ladder

    The risk of injury was higher than the derailment in the first place


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    #42
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    Hold on so people did literally just start leaving the train? Without being told?

    Wasn't that incredibly dangerous? Way more risky than staying where you were? You'd not get me going onto a train tracks unless there was a load of staff there telling me the line had been stopped.

    Where did they go once they got onto the tracks? Did they walk back to DL?


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    #43
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,145 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    3 separate jail breaks occured


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    #44
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    Was the line still operating in the other direction?


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    #45
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Did the people just get off because the train stopped and they were given no information from the driver so they took it into their own hands?


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    #46
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    devnull wrote: »
    Did the people just get off because the train stopped and they were given no information from the driver so they took it into their own hands?

    While the lack of info is clearly an issue here....I don't think these people did the smart thing. I keep thinking what I would have done in their place.

    I mean...all over those carriages (the new ones and since the refit of the old ones) there are signs saying what to do in an emergency that tell you to contact the driver, not leave the train unless instructed or unless its unsafe to stay on board. If there has been a violent jolt, the train stopping and you are there half an hour, before going to the drastic step of opening the doors and jumping out why not push the button on the speaker and say "hey driver, WTF is going on?"?

    Short of there being an actual crash, or a fire, without staff telling me there is no way I'd get off a train onto what may be (for all i know) an active rail line, thats so painfully stupid I don't know where to start. I'm not one of these people who (as seen in many emergencies) sits there until someone offical tells them to move, if it's a dangerous situation, but that's not what this was, there was no crash no fire no lives were in danger...yet they went onto the rail line?

    How far were they from the nearest station maybe it was spitting distance so they didn't think it was too risky? Maybe it was at that part just after you leave DL where there is loads of space on the left on the other side of the live line...you'd need more info but it still seems v unwise


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    #47
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,145 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    Was the line still operating in the other direction?

    The city bound line was stopped at 1816, it is unclear if the Malahide bound DART actually moved off the platform and returned or was terminated immediately

    At all time the overhead wires where live

    Train was less than 100m from the platform

    The official guidance on what to do is https://www.crr.ie/download/pdf/passengerguidelines.pdf


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    #48
    Mousewar
    Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭Mousewar


    The driver of the train was sound tbh. He came on every seven to eight minutes and said we'd be detrained but gave no real timescale. After about 45 minutes (this was following a previous wait of about 25 mins at Salthill due to a points failure) he said we'd be detrained in 15-25 minutes. Shortly after this I saw a passenger on the tracks and then I saw that people from the very first carriage were getting off. So, I assumed this was the detraining and followed everyone else into the first carriage (I was in the second carriage). I followed the queue of people to the door and it was only when I got to the open door that I realised there were no steps or any other means of getting down and no Rail staff anywhere. Anyway, I'm young so I just hopped down and so did most others. A rail staff member showed up then and rebuked me a little but all of us then just strolled up the tracks to the Dun loaghaire station (we were only a one minute walk from it). All services were stopped at this point, there wasn't another train to be seen on either track.

    I caught up with the first passenger I saw on the tracks and he said they just pulled the lever at the door and pulled it open and climbed out.
    Nice guy actually for what it's worth.


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    #49
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    Mousewar wrote: »
    The driver of the train was sound tbh. He came on every seven to eight minutes and said we'd be detrained but gave no real timescale.
    Is this a train that was stuck due to the derailment or the actual train that was derailed? I'm getting confused here because some are saying they heard nothing from their drivers for 30 min and others now saying they were kept updated?
    After about 45 minutes (this was following a previous wait of about 25 mins at Salthill due to a points failure) he said we'd be detrained in 15-25 minutes. Shortly after this I saw a passenger on the tracks and then I saw that people from the very first carriage were getting off. So, I assumed this was the detraining and followed everyone else into the first carriage (I was in the second carriage). I followed the queue of people to the door and it was only when I got to the open door that I realised there were no steps or any other means of getting down and no Rail staff anywhere. Anyway, I'm young so I just hopped down and so did most others. A rail staff member showed up then and rebuked me a little but all of us then just strolled up the tracks to the Dun loaghaire station (we were only a one minute walk from it). All services were stopped at this point, there wasn't another train to be seen on either track.

    Did they know all services has been stopped? Had the driver told the passengers that?
    I caught up with the first passenger I saw on the tracks and he said they just pulled the lever at the door and pulled it open and climbed out.

    If you were that close to the station that's not as bad for them to jump out but all depends IMO on if the driver told you services were suspended. Not actually seeing a train near you means jack all, an ICR could bolt through there and hit you before you had a chance to blink.


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    #50
    Mousewar
    Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭Mousewar


    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    Is this a train that was stuck due to the derailment or the actual train that was derailed? I'm getting confused here because some are saying they heard nothing from their drivers for 30 min and others now saying they were kept updated?

    I was on the derailed train. We got updates from the driver. I believe it was the train behind that appears to have not gotten updates

    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    Did they know all services has been stopped? Had the driver told the passengers that?

    No, I don't think he told us services were stopped but we were there for nearly an hour and not one train passed us in all that time.


    I would add that this all seemed very minor at the time. There was no air of panic and jumping down and pottering over to the platform all seemed very straightforward and undramatic to me.


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    #51
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    Mousewar wrote: »


    No, I don't think he told us services were stopped but we were there for nearly an hour and not one train passed us in all that time.
    Ok well it's hardly unreasonable to conclude services were stopped.

    You know it's funny because I studied disasters and emergency management and thing is in a major crises like a plane crash or a fire people tend to freeze in what we call the "deliberation phase" and often sit there and die from smoke inhalation or fire and won't move unless someone aggressively tells them what to do. I've been in fires where thick black smoke is wafting into a room and people won't evacuate until you go up to them and scream at them to get out.
    (In a real disaster you have seconds not minutes, snap out of that trace and MOVE or you are dead, remember that)

    So I find it funny that in what's the rail equivalent of a fender bender the passengers are so eager to take matters into their own hands. Though I guess an hour still did pass so it was hardly fast action on their part.


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    #52
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Mousewar wrote: »
    The driver of the train was sound tbh. He came on every seven to eight minutes and said we'd be detrained but gave no real timescale. After about 45 minutes (this was following a previous wait of about 25 mins at Salthill due to a points failure) he said we'd be detrained in 15-25 minutes. Shortly after this I saw a passenger on the tracks and then I saw that people from the very first carriage were getting off. So, I assumed this was the detraining and followed everyone else into the first carriage (I was in the second carriage). I followed the queue of people to the door and it was only when I got to the open door that I realised there were no steps or any other means of getting down and no Rail staff anywhere. Anyway, I'm young so I just hopped down and so did most others. A rail staff member showed up then and rebuked me a little but all of us then just strolled up the tracks to the Dun loaghaire station (we were only a one minute walk from it). All services were stopped at this point, there wasn't another train to be seen on either track.

    Were you on the train that was de-railed or one of the other trains that were caught up in the resulting disruption? Since from what I've read here and elsewhere it seems that communication on the de-railed train was not handled badly but some of the trains effected by it had communications issues.

    What you say about being held at Salthill due to a points failure would tend to tie in what has been posted elsewhere, suggesting that earlier in the evening some points suffered an issue and were subsequently clamped as a temporary fix and following the temporary fix the first train to run through there derailed.

    http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showpost.php?p=78775&postcount=2


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    #53
    Mousewar
    Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭Mousewar


    devnull wrote: »
    Were you on the train that was de-railed or one of the other trains that were caught up in the resulting disruption? Since from what I've read here and elsewhere it seems that communication on the de-railed train was not handled badly but some of the trains effected by it had communications issues.

    What you say about being held at Salthill due to a points failure would tend to tie in what has been posted elsewhere, suggesting that earlier in the evening some points suffered an issue and were subsequently clamped as a temporary fix and following the temporary fix the first train to run through there derailed.

    http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showpost.php?p=78775&postcount=2
    Yes, on the derailed train.
    Yes, I believe we were the first train to attempt to pass the point that had failed and we came off it straightaway. In fairness to driver, he approached it very slowly so that probably helped the situation.


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    #54
    Working class heroes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,508 ✭✭✭Working class heroes


    devnull wrote: »
    Were you on the train that was de-railed or one of the other trains that were caught up in the resulting disruption? Since from what I've read here and elsewhere it seems that communication on the de-railed train was not handled badly but some of the trains effected by it had communications issues.

    What you say about being held at Salthill due to a points failure would tend to tie in what has been posted elsewhere, suggesting that earlier in the evening some points suffered an issue and were subsequently clamped as a temporary fix and following the temporary fix the first train to run through there derailed.

    http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showpost.php?p=78775&postcount=2

    Nail on the head.

    Racism is now hiding behind the cloak of Community activism.



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    #55
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭markpb


    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    Not actually seeing a train near you means jack all, an ICR could bolt through there and hit you before you had a chance to blink.

    I agree with you in principle but it would be fairly shocking if IR allowed traffic on the other track to go whizzing by 45 minutes after an derailment.


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    #56
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    markpb wrote: »
    I agree with you in principle but it would be fairly shocking if IR allowed traffic on the other track to go whizzing by 45 minutes after an derailment.

    Agreed, my question was before realizing how long they were sitting there before they left the train, if you are there nearly an hour and you see no trains go by it's a reasonable extrapolation to think the lines off.


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    #57
    skeogh82
    Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭skeogh82


    So in what appears (to me anyway) to be the first time ever, Irish Rail this evening is running a message on their timing display boards in the stations apologising for the delays last night.


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    #58
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    skeogh82 wrote: »
    So in what appears (to me anyway) to be the first time ever, Irish Rail this evening is running a message on their timing display boards in the stations apologising for the delays last night.

    Don't worry someone in de aul union will b along any second now to say "ahhh now heawwwww dats nat in ar contract nutin in dere bout tha"

    Unless they did and someone already got a customer service allowance, which would not surprise me


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    #59
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,674 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    So you are well aware of the experience the other guy put forward, but went on to have a go at him instead? :rolleyes:

    It's far from ideal but there was an overreaction from a minor delay.
    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    Was the line still operating in the other direction?

    No but could easily have been.


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    #60
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,674 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    http://www.irishrail.ie/news/messagefromchiefexecutive
    Message from Chief Executive in relation to DART service disruption on evening of Wednesday 13th September

    14 September 2017

    Message from Chief Executive in relation to DART service disruption on evening of Wednesday 13th September

    Dear Customer

    I am very sorry for the delays you experienced to your journey last night which occurred as a result of part of a Dart train becoming derailed at low speed at Dun Laoghaire. This initially blocked the northbound and southbound lines. As a consequence we were unable to operate trains in either direction between Grand Canal Dock and Bray. When our emergency response staff got to the site of the incident we were able to reopen a part of the line when it was safe to do so. The line between Lansdowne Road and Bray remained closed until the early hours of the morning and full services resumed from first service this morning.

    A detailed review commenced this morning to start to learn lessons from the feedback we have received. If you would like to add to this feedback please feel free to contact me at http://www.irishrail.ie/contact-us/customer-service-section

    Once again I sincerely apologise for the disruption to your journey.

    Yours sincerely

    David Franks
    Chief Executive
    Iarnród Éireann/Irish Rail


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    #61
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    It's far from ideal but there was an overreaction from a minor delay.

    What do you consider as being a minor and a non minor delay out of interest?


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