[13/9/2017] DART derailment at Dún Laoghaire

Jamie2k9

devnull wrote: »

What do you consider as being a minor and a non minor delay out of interest?

+30 minor, +60 major.

The time is not the point, the poster was on a train and yes annoying, yes uncomfortable and yes most likely warm but no need to be so dramatic about the incident.

There is prehaps something IE could of done quicker which I will be suggesting however it may not comply with the rule book.

I dread to think how the "Dubs" would cope if they actually experienced real delays with IE. Clearly not very well....

end of the road

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Don't worry someone in de aul union will b along any second now to say "ahhh now heawwwww dats nat in ar contract nutin in dere bout tha"

no there won't. it is the company's job to offer an apology. it is right and correct that they did as per their obligations and duty.

Hilly Bill

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Don't worry someone in de aul union will b along any second now to say "ahhh now heawwwww dats nat in ar contract nutin in dere bout tha"

Unless they did and someone already got a customer service allowance, which would not surprise me

What are you mumbling about?

XPS_Zero

Sorry, I forget some of you have not worked in the public sector (after having worked in the private, which is critical, if you've only worked in the public you might think some of this was normal), and have not had someone practically rugby tackle you to stop you changing a light bulb or closing a particular door off, as they hysterically tell you that's the electricians job or the porters job, or look at you like you just said "the jews need exterminatin" when you say you will finish your task before going for lunch, and don't go outside what's in your contract.

You'll find our entire PS is utterly riddled with absurd work practices that get in the way of seemingly common sense things. Why do you think the Ahearn govt took Luas and Metro off CIE and invented a totally new agency to run it? They knew CIE's archaic work practices would make an unholy balls of it.

There are people still unaware of the extent of this problem, or in total denial about it, I was at first too, when I was told about things like an extra allowance for working on an island I laughed and said that sounds like an urban legend, but painful experience since has taught me that the biggest obstacle to any progress and reform in Government in Ireland is PS unions, so I'm surprised, genuinely, that they didn't make a balls of this too.

end of the road

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Sorry, I forget some of you have not worked in the public sector (after having worked in the private, which is critical, if you've only worked in the public you might think some of this was normal), and have not had someone practically rugby tackle you to stop you changing a light bulb or closing a particular door off, as they hysterically tell you that's the electricians job or the porters job and don't go outside what's in your contract.

if something is not in your contract then it's not in your contract. if something isn't in your job description then it isn't in your job description. that happens in both public and private sector, dispite what some may wish to think. sometimes there will be clauses in your contract depending on where you work that may allow for you to be asked to do something outside your job description but if it's not then that is the companies decisian.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

You'll find our entire PS is utterly riddled with absurd work practices that get in the way of seemingly common sense things. Why do you think the Ahearn govt took Luas and Metro off CIE and invented a totally new agency to run it? They knew CIE's archaic work practices would make an unholy balls of it.

didn't stop a strike, or staff receiving good terms and conditions, and receiving a big pay rise and being union members did it. i wouldn't be shocked if the staff do other jobs they aren't contracted to do unless it allows for it in their contracts either.

Hilly Bill

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Sorry, I forget some of you have not worked in the public sector (after having worked in the private, which is critical, if you've only worked in the public you might think some of this was normal), and have not had someone practically rugby tackle you to stop you changing a light bulb or closing a particular door off, as they hysterically tell you that's the electricians job or the porters job, or look at you like you just said "the jews need exterminatin" when you say you will finish your task before going for lunch, and don't go outside what's in your contract.

You'll find our entire PS is utterly riddled with absurd work practices that get in the way of seemingly common sense things. Why do you think the Ahearn govt took Luas and Metro off CIE and invented a totally new agency to run it? They knew CIE's archaic work practices would make an unholy balls of it.

There are people still unaware of the extent of this problem, or in total denial about it, I was at first too, when I was told about things like an extra allowance for working on an island I laughed and said that sounds like an urban legend, but painful experience since has taught me that the biggest obstacle to any progress and reform in Government in Ireland is PS unions, so I'm surprised, genuinely, that they didn't make a balls of this too.

You are still mumbling, what's all that got to do with the thread?

prinzeugen

I wonder if anyone that posts here and loves AI will comment on how a AI DART would deal with this accident.

Going by the info, the points may not have been clipped correctly.

Its a sad state of affairs when people can no longer wait and put themselves at risk.

And the sheep mentality of humans means that once one opens the doors, the rest follow.

Jamie2k9

So it took bones of 2 hours + to get everybody off tubes in London this morning (overground station). It just puts the carry on from passengers on Wednesday into context...

markpb

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So it took bones of 2 hours + to get everybody off tubes in London this morning (overground station). It just puts the carry on from passengers on Wednesday into context...

Are you really making that ludicrous comparison? How many people do you think were on the tube when it happened? Do you think people were left on trains partly in stations for 45 minutes with no update? Do you think TfL staff were showing BBC camera crews around the place like Irish Rail staff were? You're clutching at straws here.

Jamie2k9

markpb wrote: »

Are you really making that ludicrous comparison? How many people do you think were on the tube when it happened? You're clutching at straws here.

Yes I am, it dons't matter about the volume of people but rather getting staff to the scene and securing the lines first before an evacuation can take place. It took well over an hour before the first passengers were let off, this been the most important point.

markpb

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Yes I am, it dons't matter about the volume of people but rather getting staff to the scene and securing the lines first before an evacuation can take place. It took well over an hour before the first passengers were let off, this been the most important point.

It was 45 minutes before passengers got off the trains by themselves. Had they left it up to Irish Rail, it could well have been an hour. Which is pretty poor considering the train was passing over a fault which was known about for at least 90 minutes and the driver knew almost immediately that a derailment had happened and could communicate that to CTC so they could stop the traffic on the line.

In London, they had an explosion and knew nothing more than that. It could have been one or more explosions, there could be more waiting to go off. They had hundreds of thousands of people to evacuate safely (in a potentially high risk scenario) and they still managed to start it as quickly as Irish Rail.

devnull

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So it took bones of 2 hours + to get everybody off tubes in London this morning (overground station). It just puts the carry on from passengers on Wednesday into context...

I honestly don't know where to start with this.

But said passengers on de-railed were apparently told earlier that a set of points were faulty and they were delayed and then when they got moving the train then derailed past that set of points.

How dare people not just sit there calmly without a worry or a care in the world, I mean, they're just customers, passengers with families and children they should know their place rather than annoying Irish Rail.

If I was Irish Rail I'd be far less concerned with what the passengers were doing and far more concerned that they apparently applied a fix to a set of points and apparently a short while later a derailment happened.

I look forward to the CRR investigation into this, bear in mind less than a month ago they stated that they were concerned with the safety culture in Irish Rail. https://www.crr.ie/press/2017/08/23/crr-concerned-about-safety-culture-in-iarnrod-eire/

Jamie2k9

markpb wrote: »

It was 45 minutes before passengers got off the trains by themselves. Had they left it up to Irish Rail, it could well have been an hour. Which is pretty poor considering the train was passing over a fault which was known about for at least 90 minutes and the driver knew almost immediately that a derailment had happened and could communicate that to CTC so they could stop the traffic on the line.

In London, they had an explosion and knew nothing more than that. It could have been one or more explosions, there could be more waiting to go off. They had hundreds of thousands of people to evacuate safely (in a potentially high risk scenario) and they still managed to start it as quickly as Irish Rail.

It was actually around 30 minutes and around 50 minutes before controlled one started.

I honestly don't know where to start with this.

But said passengers on de-railed were apparently told earlier that a set of points were faulty and they were delayed and then when they got moving the train then derailed past that set of points.

How dare people not just sit there calmly without a worry or a care in the world, I mean, they're just customers, passengers with families and children they should know their place rather than annoying Irish Rail.

If I was Irish Rail I'd be far less concerned with what the passengers were doing and far more concerned with the fact they applied a fix to a set of points and a short while later a derailment happened.

I look forward to the CRR investigation into this, bear in mind less than a month ago they stated that they were concerned with the safety culture in Irish Rail. https://www.crr.ie/press/2017/08/23/...-iarnrod-eire/

Would you say that if such passengers had an accident while de training without clearance. IE can improve how they handled it but I honestly cannot believe that people here support such a de training. If there was an immediate threat to life you might have a case to support what happened.

Yes clearly the points failed and caused it by human error or equipment failure we will fund out.

Dravokivich

devnull wrote: »

I honestly don't know where to start with this.

Purely down to how long he's had to put up with. He doesn't think anyone else's inconveniences registers against his.

Jamie2k9

Dravokivich wrote: »

Purely down to how long he's had to put up with. He doesn't think anyone else's inconveniences registers against his.

Not at all your safety should be ahead of inconvenience.

devnull

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Would you say that if such passengers had an accident while de training without clearance. IE can improve how they handled it but I honestly cannot believe that people here support such a de training. If there was an immediate threat to life you might have a case to support what happened.

Unfortunately this is where Irish Rail's reputation goes before them to some degree. I have traveled on Irish Rail and other operators extensively and I know that I cannot rely on Irish Rail to deliver passenger information or keep them updated or deliver an adequate standard of customer care during disruption or incidents.

I have been stuck in incidents on various operators in the UK, Ireland and within Europe and Irish Rail are by far the worst I have experienced when it comes to dealing with such incidents and care for their passengers and keeping them informed whilst on train. Unfortunately if people do not feel adequately informed or assisted by staff that is when the start to consider taking things into their own hands.

I'm not saying that it is the right thing to do or that I support what they are doing, but it is human nature and passengers clearly felt that they were left on a limb there without proper assistance from the company and there are many reasons behind that, but as stated before, serious questions have been raised about the culture in Irish Rail and this does nothing to help the image of that.

JayRoc

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Train is held at Seapoint for 30 mins (due to points failure ahead). Train finally moves off but almost immediately stops again (due to derailment ahead after points were repaired) and is held for another 50 mins before passengers have enough and finally pop the doors open and stroll back to the platform a few metres away.

My understanding is that no one on this dart had received communication from IR at all, at any stage.

Not being funny here but how long would people here have waited?

goingnowhere

JayRoc wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Train is held at Seapoint for 30 mins (due to points failure ahead). Train finally moves off but almost immediately stops again (due to derailment ahead after points were repaired) and is held for another 50 mins before passengers have enough and finally pop the doors open and stroll back to the platform a few metres away.

My understanding is that no one on this dart had received communication from IR at all, at any stage.

Not being funny here but how long would people here have waited?

It was Salthill not Seapoint, there was communication, but it was the usual shortly, soon, next 10 minutes repeated several times

devnull

goingnowhere wrote: »

It was Salthill not Seapoint, there was communication, but it was the usual shortly, soon, next 10 minutes repeated several times

From what I heard there was some communication on the derailed train but it was lacking on others.

The Rail Users Ireland report however suggests that some people in the incident train also had no announcements, but since that train consisted of a few trains coupled together, it's possible that the announcements did not go out in all of the carriages.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

I honestly don't know where to start with this.

But said passengers on de-railed were apparently told earlier that a set of points were faulty and they were delayed and then when they got moving the train then derailed past that set of points.

How dare people not just sit there calmly without a worry or a care in the world, I mean, they're just customers, passengers with families and children they should know their place rather than annoying Irish Rail.

If I was Irish Rail I'd be far less concerned with what the passengers were doing and far more concerned that they apparently applied a fix to a set of points and apparently a short while later a derailment happened.

I look forward to the CRR investigation into this, bear in mind less than a month ago they stated that they were concerned with the safety culture in Irish Rail. https://www.crr.ie/press/2017/08/23/crr-concerned-about-safety-culture-in-iarnrod-eire/

passengers had no business detraining themselves onto what was potentially still a live railway, of which they know little to nothing about it's operations.
irish rail's handling of the situation was absolutely shambolic no question but the passengers could have potentially made things worse. unless it is an absolute emergency such as a crash or fire or similar, a tough stance should be taken against anyone detraining themselves.

LXFlyer

Unfortunately, this is one of those far from ideal situations where the short answer to when people will be removed safely from the train is "how long is a piece of string".

There are very strict rules within which the railway operates, and these have to be followed.

Staff would have to be organised to get to any of the trains that were not at a station platform, and a safe route established to detrain the passengers. That's not going to happen immediately - the railway company doesn't have staff waiting around to instantly deal with an incident like this.

And yes, it is all very bureaucratic, and may appear ridiculous to people, but that is how the railway works - the rule book is very black and white.

As for people taking measures into their own hands, I've absolutely no sympathy for them whatsoever. It's an active railway, they're not trained in personal safety on the tracks, and irrespective of the delay, there is no excuse for trespassing on the railway.

It's one of those situations where you have to just grin and bear it until the staff come to detrain people safely.

devnull

LXFlyer wrote: »

Unfortunately, this is one of those far from ideal situations where the short answer to when people will be removed safely from the train is "how long is a piece of string".

There are very strict rules within which the railway operates, and these have to be followed.

Staff would have to be organised to get to any of the trains that were not at a station platform, and a safe route established to detrain the passengers. That's not going to happen immediately - the railway company doesn't have staff waiting around to instantly deal with an incident like this.

And yes, it is all very bureaucratic, and may appear ridiculous to people, but that is how the railway works - the rule book is very black and white.

As for people taking measures into their own hands, I've absolutely no sympathy for them whatsoever. It's an active railway, they're not trained in personal safety on the tracks, and irrespective of the delay, there is no excuse for trespassing on the railway.

It's one of those situations where you have to just grin and bear it until the staff come to detrain people safely.

I agree with what you are saying in a large part - but Irish Rail's reputation for dealing with incidents and their poor communications during such incidents doesn't help them in this regard, I wouldn't have faith in Irish Rail keeping me informed during serious incidents like I would for other operators because past experience has showed that they don't deal with them at the level they should.

If people are properly informed with proper communications they are less likely to take matters into their own hands. I'm not saying that it's going to stop all passengers from doing that, but communications and reassurance is key to making sure the passengers do not panic, if passengers feel left in the dark it's human nature to panic and it's clear IE have lessons to learn.

Before we start customer blaming we need to look into what happened in relation to the maintenance of the points before the derailment occured and bear in mind what the CRR said several weeks ago about the safety culture in Irish Rail, turning this into customer blaming exercise appears to be an attempt to shift the debate away from IE's failings.

LXFlyer

devnull wrote: »

I agree with what you are saying in a large part - but Irish Rail's reputation for dealing with incidents and their poor communications during such incidents doesn't help them in this regard, I wouldn't have faith in Irish Rail keeping me informed during serious incidents like I would for other operators because past experience has showed that they don't deal with them at the level they should.

If people are properly informed with proper communications they are less likely to take matters into their own hands. I'm not saying that it's going to stop all passengers from doing that, but communications and reassurance is key to making sure the passengers do not panic, if passengers feel left in the dark it's human nature to panic and it's clear IE have lessons to learn.

Before we start customer blaming we need to look into what happened in relation to the maintenance of the points before the derailment occured and bear in mind what the CRR said several weeks ago about the safety culture in Irish Rail, turning this into customer blaming exercise appears to be an attempt to shift the debate away from IE's failings.

Hold on a moment - that's a different issue. The RAIU will investigate the factors involved behind the derailment and will report on it and action will be taken.

I was specifically commenting on people detraining themselves and trespassing on the railway. There is no room for manoeuvre on that - it is not permitted full stop, and people were risking their own safety and that of others by trespassing on the railway.

Some people are trying to justify those actions, and I'm sorry, there is no justification for it. Yes it's a pain for those concerned, but it's one of those situations in life where matters are outside your control and where you have to just wait.

I'm not excusing any poor communication, but there is no justification for anyone trespassing on the railway. And no one here should be suggesting otherwise.

Hilly Bill

LXFlyer wrote: »

Hold on a moment - that's a different issue. The RAIU will investigate the factors involved behind the derailment and will report on it and action will be taken.

I was specifically commenting on people detraining themselves and trespassing on the railway. There is no room for manoeuvre on that - it is not permitted full stop, and people were risking their own safety and that of others by trespassing on the railway.

Some people are trying to justify those actions, and I'm sorry, there is no justification for it. Yes it's a pain for those concerned, but it's one of those situations in life where matters are outside your control and where you have to just wait.

I'm not excusing any poor communication, but there is no justification for anyone trespassing on the railway. And no one here should be suggesting otherwise.

There is justification if the train is off the tracks and you haven't had any announcements regarding what the procedure is going to be. Your first reaction is to think of your own safety and go home rather than trying not to break any IR safety rules. If you get reassured that everything is ok and you will get off the train shortly then it's acting the maggot if you start forcing doors opening and potentially putting people at risk of injury.
If you jump down by your own choice and break or damage an ankle you'd blame Irish rail and see the euro signs in front of your eyes.

devnull

LXFlyer wrote: »

I was specifically commenting on people detraining themselves and trespassing on the railway. There is no room for manoeuvre on that - it is not permitted full stop, and people were risking their own safety and that of others by trespassing on the railway.

Some people are trying to justify those actions, and I'm sorry, there is no justification for it. Yes it's a pain for those concerned, but it's one of those situations in life where matters are outside your control and where you have to just wait.

I'm not excusing any poor communication, but there is no justification for anyone trespassing on the railway. And no one here should be suggesting otherwise.

It is not permitted and I agree with you on that and I'm not condoning it I am just explaining why people may have done it and the factors which may well have played a part in them making the decision to do so even though it was not the most wise of actions.

At the end of the day Irish Rail has had serious issues with communications during incidents such as this one and during service disruption and this has been the case for some time, so it is understandable that it may lead to some people panicing, this is human nature at the end of the day.

Does this mean that Irish Rail can be fully blamed for people deciding to get off the train and take things into their own hands? No. Could they have done more to reassure their customers and communicated better which may have reduced the level of panic? Yes.

JayRoc

I wasn't necessarily trying to condone anyone detraining without permission from IR, but I was under the impression at least some of them had been left without any communication whatsoever.

And if that was the case then surely it was inevitable that people would eventually just hop off, regardless of the rules?

LXFlyer

JayRoc wrote: »

I wasn't necessarily trying to condone anyone detraining without permission from IR, but I was under the impression at least some of them had been left without any communication whatsoever.

And if that was the case then surely it was inevitable that people would eventually just hop off, regardless of the rules?

People clearly would get frustrated, yes, and I've sympathy for them in that respect, but there is no leeway on this - the railway has very strict rules for very good reasons. What those people did was reckless, and endangered themselves and others.

An operational railway is not safe for people to trespass as these people did, full stop.

devnull

LXFlyer wrote: »

People clearly would get frustrated, yes, and I've sympathy for them in that respect, but there is no leeway on this - the railway has very strict rules for very good reasons. What those people did was reckless, and endangered themselves and others.

Noibody is arguing that it wasn't reckless but we have to look at why people took these decisions and try and put something in place to make it far less likely to happen in the future, simply saying people are doing something wrong and that is all there is to it and end of story will do nothing to stop it happening again in the future.

Instead of pointing the fingers at passengers and saying that is all there is to it, maybe, just maybe, it might be prudent for Irish Rail to think about what they can do and how they can improve their communications to reduce frustrations, try and qwell the panic and reassure people rather than blaming the customer to avoid examining their own faults which happen again and again.

JayRoc

My point is moreso that IR should have anticipated what would happen if they left passengers for that long with no communication.
Again, I'm not saying detraining was necessarily the correct thing to do, but it was easy to foresee that people would do it under such circumstances.

If there was, in fact, any danger associated with passengers getting off the train, surely it would have been in IR's interest to anticipate it and take steps to avoid it. Keeping the lines of communication open being the first and most obvious step.

end of the road

JayRoc wrote: »

My point is moreso that IR should have anticipated what would happen if they left passengers for that long with no communication.
Again, I'm not saying detraining was necessarily the correct thing to do, but it was easy to foresee that people would do it under such circumstances.

If there was, in fact, any danger associated with passengers getting off the train, surely it would have been in IR's interest to anticipate it and take steps to avoid it. Keeping the lines of communication open being the first and most obvious step.

maybe they didn't think people were that thick? wrongly obviously but i think most people know not to mess with the railway. they have to get something in place to stop it from happening again though, no excuses.