[13/9/2017] DART derailment at Dún Laoghaire

Jamie2k9

lucernarian wrote: »

At the very heart of this discussion is whether the passengers did anything wrong when getting off the train. It seems that no passengers were injured - if this wouldn't even form part of the investigation then this is quite possibly because there wasn't a safety issue to begin with when they did this? Otherwise I can't see how the RSC could ignore it.

The earlier reports about staff in Dun Laoghaire station are worrisome, some folks here allege that they didn't follow procedure. Whether the "procedure" itself is actually up to scratch... I don't know.

The RAIU will investigate and produce a report on the accident. It will most likely contain a set of recommendations which should be implemented. The RSC will then examine the report and potentially take legal action against IE if there is a case and/or oversee various rule changes if the report makes such recommendations.

It is likely passengers actions on the night could influence some recommendations indirectly if the RAIU feel IE didn't handle it well even if they followed the current procedures. Whole point is ensure what happened doesn't again or at least under the same circumstances.

cython

Report regarding this derailment is out.

RCA attributes it to human error on the part of the points operator, but also attributes this to gaps in the training process for operators. Very little emphasis on passengers detraining themselves, save that it was against the instructions on displays, and that announcements were made.

markpb

cython wrote: »

RCA attributes it to human error on the part of the points operator, but also attributes this to gaps in the training process for operators. Very little emphasis on passengers detraining themselves, save that it was against the instructions on displays, and that announcements were made.

The great thing about safety investigation documents is that, unlike boards, the authors are tasked with finding the root cause, not someone to blame. It's easy to post here saying that it was all the passengers fault for selfishlessly abandoning the train but what the RAIU document actually says is that announcements were made but:

a significant number of passengers, carried out an number of uncontrolled impromptu evacuations, without the guidance of IÉ staff; this is likely due to the fact that the:
{snip}
Absence of information from Driver E222 of an estimated controlled evacuation time

This absence of controlled response, coupled with the frustration of the delayed passengers on board a train which was situated close to a platform, may have resulted in a significant number of passengers carrying out impromptu evacuations without the supervision of IÉ staff

the existing IÉ publications in relation to emergency responses and train evacuations, did not address the prevention of uncontrolled impromptu evacuations

which is a polite way for saying that IE have no plans for dealing with this situation, even though it has happened several times in the past.

Something like this will happen again in the future. Unless IE have a plan to deal with it (through better communication and better handling of the incident), impromptu evacuations will happen then too.

Infini

Honestly I dont know why this is even an argument at this point. If people refuse to wait and take things into their own hands without waiting for staff instructions its on their heads and noone elses. Impatience is an excuse not a reason.

Jamie2k9

25 minute gap between announcements is rather long and I don't think it helped the situation. in the normal course of operations drivers who are active on the PA usually do it 10-15 minutes.

Cookie_Monster

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

25 minute gap between announcements is rather long and I don't think it helped the situation. in the normal course of operations drivers who are active on the PA usually do it 10-15 minutes.

Thats gross incompetence in my book, not "rather long"

markpb

Infini wrote: »

Honestly I dont know why this is even an argument at this point. If people refuse to wait and take things into their own hands without waiting for staff instructions its on their heads and noone elses. Impatience is an excuse not a reason.

The RAIU didn't excuse the behaviour, it just pointed out that IR had no plan for how to deal with it. You can blame the people involved all you like but it's going to happen again. Has anything changed since this incident?

Infini

markpb wrote: »

The RAIU didn't excuse the behaviour, it just pointed out that IR had no plan for how to deal with it. You can blame the people involved all you like but it's going to happen again. Has anything changed since this incident?

It can take time to get people there, remember this happened during rush hour and with the line closed and heavy traffic it can make it even more difficult to get people there. Derailment's rarely happen on passenger services.

As for it happening again if people are too stupid to not wait for assistance and something happens its on their head. There's no excuse for taking thing's upon themselves when there's no threat to one's life. Said it before.

Cookie_Monster

Infini wrote: »

There's no excuse for taking thing's upon themselves when there's no threat to one's life. Said it before.

the train has derailed and no announcements are forthcoming, how are people expected to know there is no threat under the circumstances? For all they know the driver could be incapacitated, the singaling system may not have activated properly, other trains may not be aware of the issue, the derailment could have caused shorts leading to fires and so on and so on.

devnull

Infini wrote: »

Honestly I dont know why this is even an argument at this point. If people refuse to wait and take things into their own hands without waiting for staff instructions its on their heads and noone elses. Impatience is an excuse not a reason.

If this is the attitude that is taken by Irish Rail as well, it is no wonder that the safety regulator for railways has raised before that there are issues in relation to the safety culture within Irish Rail.

If we're in a situation where the RAIU investigates something like this and gives it's report and Irish Rail, like people on this board, are still complacent about it's findings and feel they do not have to address the concerns and points raised then that is very serious.

Irish Rail is set up as a publicly owned company to transport the public and needs to see looking after them and giving them timely information where possible as it's duty, not seeing them as an inconvenience that they could not care less about.

Del.Monte

This lack of communication is immensely annoying for passengers even with minor hold-ups and it's a PR own goal by IE. Communication with passengers is so important and defuses problems very quickly.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

If this is the attitude that is taken by Irish Rail as well, it is no wonder that the safety regulator for railways has raised before that there are issues in relation to the safety culture within Irish Rail.

If we're in a situation where the RAIU investigates something like this and gives it's report and Irish Rail, like people on this board, are still complacent about it's findings and feel they do not have to address the concerns and points raised then that is very serious.

Irish Rail is set up as a publicly owned company to transport the public and needs to see looking after them and giving them timely information where possible as it's duty, not seeing them as an inconvenience that they could not care less about.

The main bit there you mention is where possible. Nobody can you info that they don't have..

Nobody from Irish rail on here doesn't have to address any findings nor answer for anything you or anyone else has an issue with.
If you had an ounce of an idea about the safety culture within the company then you would realise that we can't move for safety and sometimes accidents happen and not once was it down to someone not caring about safety as they would be sacked..

Working class heroes

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The main bit there you mention is where possible. Nobody can you info that they don't have..

Nobody from Irish rail on here doesn't have to address any findings nor answer for anything you or anyone else has an issue with.
If you had an ounce of an idea about the safety culture within the company then you would realise that we can't move for safety and sometimes accidents happen and not once was it down to someone not caring about safety as they would be sacked..

Hi HB.
Accidents are a funny thing. Show me an accident and I’ll show you a way it could of been prevented. I believe the term “accidents happen “ as simply not true. They don’t just happen, they are caused.
On the safety culture within IE, have a read of this...
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-rail-staff-failing-to-report-near-misses-for-fear-of-being-reprimanded-31484298.html

Jamie2k9

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Thats gross incompetence in my book, not "rather long"

I agree, I phrased it that way because I didn't get time to read the full report when I posted so didn't know if there were circumstances for long gaps.

Infini

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the train has derailed and no announcements are forthcoming, how are people expected to know there is no threat under the circumstances? For all they know the driver could be incapacitated, the singaling system may not have activated properly, other trains may not be aware of the issue, the derailment could have caused shorts leading to fires and so on and so on.

I already pointed out that if theres a threat to ones life like a fire then thats an acceptable and reasonable reason not to wait. Its not acceptable IMO when there is no threat at all and nothing is gonna change my opinion of that. Criticise the communication all you want but dont use it as justification to say its fine for people to do whatever they want because that just asking for more trouble.

Cookie_Monster

Infini wrote: »

I already pointed out that if theres a threat to ones life like a fire then thats an acceptable and reasonable reason not to wait. Its not acceptable IMO when there is no threat at all and nothing is gonna change my opinion of that. Criticise the communication all you want but dont use it as justification to say its fine for people to do whatever they want because that just asking for more trouble.

how do you know there is no threat though if no announcements are being made....

prinzeugen

Working class heroes wrote: »

Hi HB.
Accidents are a funny thing. Show me an accident and I’ll show you a way it could of been prevented. I believe the term “accidents happen “ as simply not true. They don’t just happen, they are caused.
On the safety culture within IE, have a read of this...
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-rail-staff-failing-to-report-near-misses-for-fear-of-being-reprimanded-31484298.html

I will show you this. http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=144

The reports are pdf. How would you have prevented this? The highest speed railway accident in UK history. Crash barrier? Not having bogies tied by wire to the body?

Would love to hear your expertise on the issue.

Working class heroes

prinzeugen wrote: »

I will show you this. http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=144

The reports are pdf. How would you have prevented this? The highest speed railway accident in UK history. Crash barrier? Not having bogies tied by wire to the body?

Would love to hear your expertise on the issue.

Less of your passive aggressive style if you don’t mind.
Are you honestly saying that this incident could not have been prevented?
Two minutes reading your link gave me one answer(the driver of the landrover was sleep deprived).
Did you even read your own link?

And just to say in general terms. If we are to accept accidents as inevitable what’s the point in trying to prevent them. So no I don’t and will never accept an accident as inevitable. That’s only a cop out.

prinzeugen

Working class heroes wrote: »

Less of your passive aggressive style if you don’t mind.
Are you honestly saying that this incident could not have been prevented?
Two minutes reading your link gave me one answer(the driver of the landrover was sleep deprived).
Did you even read your own link?

And just to say in general terms. If we are to accept accidents as inevitable what’s the point in trying to prevent them. So no I don’t and will never accept an accident as inevitable. That’s only a cop out.

I have read my link and have original documents from many rail accidents in the UK.

If you had more than two minutes worth you would see that there were other factors. Trains have hit cars at 125mph before. But little things made this one different. Had Heck happened just a few years earlier, the newspaper headlines would have said "miracle" not " disaster ".

Regarding people self evacuating. Irish Rail are in a no win position. And its society to blame.

Driver tells people the may be stuck for an hour? Idiots will say "feck this, I will walk" and self evacuate.

Driver tells people they have no idea how long they may be stuck? "False imprisonment", so open the doors and jump off. People are too impatient and self-important to care about safety in this day and age.

As I and others have said, anyone that "self evacuate" a train without a bloody good reason (fire or serious collision) should be tracked down and prosecuted in the courts.

Working class heroes

prinzeugen wrote: »

I have read my link and have original documents from many rail accidents in the UK.

If you had more than two minutes worth you would see that there were other factors. Trains have hit cars at 125mph before. But little things made this one different. Had Heck happened just a few years earlier, the newspaper headlines would have said "miracle" not " disaster ".

Regarding people self evacuating. Irish Rail are in a no win position. And its society to blame.

Driver tells people the may be stuck for an hour? Idiots will say "feck this, I will walk" and self evacuate.

Driver tells people they have no idea how long they may be stuck? "False imprisonment", so open the doors and jump off. People are too impatient and self-important to care about safety in this day and age.

As I and others have said, anyone that "self evacuate" a train without a bloody good reason (fire or serious collision) should be tracked down and prosecuted in the courts.

So you are saying that accident was inevitable?
That it could not have been prevented.
Really?
Because that is absolute and utter nonsense.

Infini

Working class heroes wrote: »

So you are saying that accident was inevitable?
That it could not have been prevented.
Really?
Because that is absolute and utter nonsense.

Whats absolute nonsense is those still trying to justify people using supposed lack of announcements as an excuse to evacuate a train without staff assistance when theres no immediate threat or risk to life.

Working class heroes

Infini wrote: »

Whats absolute nonsense is those still trying to justify people using supposed lack of announcements as an excuse to evacuate a train without staff assistance when theres no immediate threat or risk to life.

I agree with that up to a point. That is unless there is an immediate and obvious danger(in this case there wasn’t) then people should wait for guidance. If that guidance is slow coming well that’s another matter.

Now I’m not sure why you quoted me whilst making that point, but the point I have been making is about accidents in general. They are avoidable.