[13/9/2017] DART derailment at Dún Laoghaire

thomasj · 13-09-2017 5:17pm #1

Irish rail are tweeting services are currently suspended due to "low speed derailment near dun laoghaire"

Victor · 13-09-2017 5:41pm

Problem with points and DART derailed when it went through.

devnull · 13-09-2017 5:44pm

Is it not possible for Irish Rail to actually make a visible presence about it on their website as well as twitter?

Hilly Bill · 13-09-2017 6:14pm

Seeing that you posted about it first I'll post in here. Why does this crap happen at peek times? It always seems to happen at rush hour.

devnull · 13-09-2017 6:18pm

Threads Merged

DubOnHoliday · 13-09-2017 6:31pm

I was on the rosslare stuck 50 meters out of sea point , packed train, no air, all standing, it took 50 mins to get permission to reverse 50 meters to the station all the time we were in a spot with no mobile signal, so we couldn't get the updates that the driver wasn't giving us.... what a third world country we are in some aspects.

Atlantic Dawn · 13-09-2017 6:35pm

Is it the first time a DART in service derailed? Will there be a service running that route tomorrow?

Jamie2k9 · 13-09-2017 6:35pm

DubOnHoliday wrote: »

I was on the rosslare stuck 50 meters out of sea point , packed train, no air, all standing, it took 50 mins to get permission to reverse 50 meters to the station all the time we were in a spot with no mobile signal, so we couldn't get the updates that the driver wasn't giving us.... what a third world country we are in some aspects.

No air, your still alive yes??

You know priority will be given by the controllers to the actual incident before you guys. You would have the exact same outside Ireland.

Jamie2k9 · 13-09-2017 6:35pm

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Is it the first time a DART in service derailed? Will there be a service running that route tomorrow?

No and Yes

Infini · 13-09-2017 6:44pm

All I can say when I heard about this is..... Oh shyte! O.O

Would say theyll be back tomorrow cant see it being back for the rest of the evening considering theyll need to get a rerailer out to get it back on the track. Least its a low speed and noone injured so far.

Mousewar · 13-09-2017 6:53pm

I was on the derailed train. Stuck for ages. We eventually forced the doors and got off ourselves.
It was very low speed but a hell of a bang all the same

Victor · 13-09-2017 6:55pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You know priority will be given by the controllers to the actual incident before you guys. You would have the exact same outside Ireland.

Sure, but as they had no updates, they didn't know there was another train with a problem.

Mousewar wrote: »

I was on the derailed train. Stuck for ages. We eventually forced the doors and got off ourselves.
It was very low speed but a hell of a bang all the same

Can you write down what happened and send it to info@raiu.ie

Victor · 13-09-2017 6:57pm

http://www.irishrail.ie/news/services-suspended-between-lansdowne-road-and-dun-laoghaire

Services suspended between Lansdowne Road and Bray/Greystones until further notice

13 September 2017

Services suspended between Lansdowne Road and Bray/Greystones until further notice due to an incident in Dun Laoghaire.

Update: 19:45hrs

All services are currently suspended between Lansdowne Road and Bray/Greystones due to a low speed train derailment in Dun Laoghaire

Dublin Bus are accepting rail tickets. Bus transfer will operate for Rosslare services.

All Customers have now been detrained from the service that was involved in the incident

DART realtime information is currently not displaying accurate information

Iarnród Éireann apologises for this disruption this evening.

lucernarian · 13-09-2017 6:58pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

No air, your still alive yes??

You know priority will be given by the controllers to the actual incident before you guys. You would have the exact same outside Ireland.

I've been in a situation where a train broke down badly, just ahead of the train I was on, according to the driver. Took maybe 20 or 30 minutes to reverse 500 metres to Drumcondra. It's also no reason not to have announcements from the driver. Part of what CTC does is to explain and liaise with train drivers who are on the line ahead... So surely the driver can pass it on?

By not acting and also not providing updates, one eejit might be tempted to take matters into their own hands, but that isn't Irish Rail's fault though. Edit: mentioned the point because it is partly Irish Rail's fault, but then no one should walk on the track except in emergency situations really.

Victor · 13-09-2017 6:59pm

lucernarian wrote: »

By not acting and also not providing updates, one eejit might be tempted to take matters into their own hands, but that isn't Irish Rail's fault though.

It is their responsibility. Passengers de-training themselves away from stations is a known phenomenon.

Jamie2k9 · 13-09-2017 7:01pm

Victor wrote: »

Sure, but as they had no updates, they didn't know there was another train with a problem.

Can you write down what happened and send it to info@raiu.ie

It doesn't matter if they knew or not. I agree they should of gotten an update but 50 minutes is nothing and I am sure the air con didn't fail on the ICR.

DubOnHoliday · 13-09-2017 7:01pm

In crisis management keeping people informed is one of the priorities.... not the ah sure they'll be grand for another 30 mins. And as for reversing the half of the train that wasn't on the platform, with so many single points of failure on this line, you'd think the decision making process to change direction in an incident would be more reactive.

Atlantic Dawn · 13-09-2017 7:03pm

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/dart-services-suspended-after-train-derails-near-dun-laoghaire-36129653.html

Jamie2k9 · 13-09-2017 7:05pm

lucernarian wrote: »

I've been in a situation where a train broke down badly, just ahead of the train I was on, according to the driver. Took maybe 20 or 30 minutes to reverse 500 metres to Drumcondra. It's also no reason not to have announcements from the driver. Part of what CTC does is to explain and liaise with train drivers who are on the line ahead... So surely the driver can pass it on?

By not acting and also not providing updates, one eejit might be tempted to take matters into their own hands, but that isn't Irish Rail's fault though.

I agree they should of been given updates and drivers should have enough inelegance to use their head even if they make up an excuse to update passengers.

It's likely a DART had entered the next signalling area and that is why they couldn't reverse as quickly even if they are miles apart it would likely cause the signalling system go into fail safe mode and make it a lot worse.

lucernarian · 13-09-2017 7:08pm

Victor wrote: »

I is their responsibility. Passengers de-training themselves away from stations is a known phenomenon.

I've clarified the point, am too tired to make points now

devnull · 13-09-2017 7:09pm

Generally within Europe it's considered best practice to give updates when a train stops for unexpected reasons within five minutes at the very latest.

The UK for example has this in it's code of practice:
https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/about-us/publications.html?task=file.download&id=469771025

On-board employees are also required to make announcements within 2 minutes when the train
comes to a stop between stations. DOO operators must consider how best to achieve this in their
local plans.

lucernarian · 13-09-2017 7:13pm

devnull wrote: »

Generally within Europe it's considered best practice to give updates when a train stops for unexpected reasons within five minutes at the very latest.

The UK for example has this in it's code of practice

Indeed. It also wouldn't be the first time for Irish Rail that the loudspeakers were defective, entirely out of order, or the driver's microphone had a defect. It also wouldn't be the first time if someone wrote in about it and nothing was done subsequently. Usually the only way to notice is to have a carriage almost to yourself when something goes wrong, and to hear a whisper from the speakers while the train has stopped.

Mousewar · 13-09-2017 7:20pm

The derailed train got decent updates from the driver in fairness. But passengers got sick of waiting.

Infini · 13-09-2017 7:24pm

Victor wrote: »

I is their responsibility. Passengers de-training themselves away from stations is a known phenomenon.

Does seem rather silly of people to be forcing the doors open though. Regardless of the whole information thing if people are forcing the doors open that's dangerous in their own right because,

1) They're basically jumping down onto a possibly active line without waiting for staff to get to them and
2) They're walking on an electrified line. There's the possibility of electrocution.

As for the train itself it looks like it was travelling southbound. Only thing I can think of from the pictures considering its location is the points bar must've snapped as the train hit points causing them to gape and make the train jump the tracks and derail.

cython · 13-09-2017 7:27pm

Infini wrote: »

Does seem rather silly of people to be forcing the doors open though. Regardless of the whole information thing if people are forcing the doors open that's dangerous in their own right because,

1) They're basically jumping down onto a possibly active line without waiting for staff to get to them and
2) They're walking on an electrified line. There's the possibility of electrocution.

As for the train itself it looks like it was travelling southbound. Only thing I can think of from the pictures considering its location is the points bar must've snapped as the train hit points causing them to gape and make the train jump the tracks and derail.

On the bolded, highly unlikely unless the electricity were to arc from the overhead lines to hit someone a la lightning?

Otherise there'd be a risk of electrocution at level crossings, after all.

thomasj · 13-09-2017 7:41pm

Irish rail saying no services expected to run between Lansdowne road and bray for rest of evening.

goingnowhere · 13-09-2017 7:43pm

cython wrote: »

On the bolded, highly unlikely unless the electricity were to arc from the overhead lines to hit someone a la lightning? Otherise there'd be a risk of electrocution at level crossings, after all.

Wires could have been damaged by the derailment

Colonel Claptrap · 13-09-2017 7:59pm

Typically speaking, what can cause a derailment like this?

How frequent do derailments happen in Ireland?

How is the train rerailed? Is that even a word?

Thanks.

prinzeugen · 13-09-2017 8:00pm

cython wrote: »

On the bolded, highly unlikely unless the electricity were to arc from the overhead lines to hit someone a la lightning? Otherise there'd be a risk of electrocution at level crossings, after all.

Its DC so unlikely to arc from the overhead lines, but there are wires at track level (return bonds) which take the return current from the train back to the power source.

One of these could have been cut or damaged by the trains wheels and come in contact with the ground. 1500v at 1000's of amps... Goodnight Vienna.

Not to mention the signaling cables that carry hundreds of volts as well.

goingnowhere · 13-09-2017 8:07pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

Its DC so unlikely to arc from the overhead lines, but there are wires at track level (return bonds) which take the return current from the train back to the power source.

One of these could have been cut or damaged by the trains wheels and come in contact with the ground. 1500v at 1000's of amps... Goodnight Vienna.

Not to mention the signaling cables that carry hundreds of volts as well.

Exactly and there is a 1500V feeder cable passing almost directly under the derailment location

Del.Monte · 13-09-2017 8:13pm

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Typically speaking, what can cause a derailment like this?

How frequent do derailments happen in Ireland?

How is the train rerailed? Is that even a word?

Thanks.

Any number of things can cause a derailment including track spreading due to rotten sleepers, points set wrong way, stones in check rails etc. but thankfully serious derailments are few and far between. Likewise there are numerous ways of rerailing depending on how serious ia derailment, location etc. The usual way with minor derailments is to pull the offending vehicles back the way they came off, or to jack them up rerail or lift with a crane - overhead wires in this case will probably mean jacking.

prinzeugen · 13-09-2017 9:13pm

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Typically speaking, what can cause a derailment like this?

How frequent do derailments happen in Ireland?

How is the train rerailed? Is that even a word?

Thanks.

In this case it was probably a tie bar failure. It is a facing point also which does not help things. (The Grayrigg accident in the UK was caused the same way).

Its why railways try to avoid facing points where possible.

The unit will be jacked. Here is a 2 min video of how its done.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=puiKWMlAGtM

Infini · 14-09-2017 12:00am

prinzeugen wrote: »

In this case it was probably a tie bar failure. It is a facing point also which does not help things. (The Grayrigg accident in the UK was caused the same way).

Its why railways try to avoid facing points where possible.

The points themselves are the ones that lead into the bay platform in Dun Laohaire (Platform 3). Would say those points are gonna be out of action for a little while as they'll likely have to scotch and clip them in the normal position until a proper repair can be done on them. Will prolly mess up a couple of trains in the evening as there's one or 2 that tend to turn around at that location.

prinzeugen · 14-09-2017 2:32am

Something went wrong on the interlocking or tie bars on the points.

If the points are at fault, a clip will not do. Replace.

I look forward to reading the report into this as Irish Rail has a very good safety record compared to the UK.

devnull · 14-09-2017 9:33am

prinzeugen wrote: »

I look forward to reading the report into this as Irish Rail has a very good safety record compared to the UK.

What a surprise that a railway system with slower lines, less tracks, far less trains, simpler infrastructure, less bridges and levels crossings, less busy infrastructure, with worse operating hours and carries approx 43,000,000 passengers than a British System that carried 1,600,000,000 has less incidents.

UK is far from unsafe, one of the safest railways in Europe including to EU data based on passenger km / per incident which is the best way to judge it.

We'll just have to see what the investigation brings at the end of the day before pointing blame on this.

Dravokivich · 14-09-2017 9:45am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

No air, your still alive yes??

You know priority will be given by the controllers to the actual incident before you guys. You would have the exact same outside Ireland.

Never been stuck on a train with windows that don't open for a period of time no? When it's sitting there idle for a long period of time it gets rather stifling and uncomfortable. Doesn't even need to be full for that to happen.

goingnowhere · 14-09-2017 9:56am

There was no need for the uncontrolled evacuation last night. The train had stood at Salthill for 30 minutes previously, many folks had already gotten off and walked. All the coaches had numerous windows which opened

Weather conditions where 14C so conditions in no way required immediate evacuation

What went wrong was
1. Failure to communicate
2. Failure to get the controlled detrainment underway in a reasonable timeframe, especially given the proximity of Dun Laoghaire
3. Failure to get staff on board the train to walk through to ensure passengers were assessed for those who may not be able to climb down

Jamie2k9 · 14-09-2017 10:26am

Dravokivich wrote: »

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

No air, your still alive yes??

You know priority will be given by the controllers to the actual incident before you guys. You would have the exact same outside Ireland.

Never been stuck on a train with windows that don't open for a period of time no? When it's sitting there idle for a long period of time it gets rather stifling and uncomfortable. Doesn't even need to be full for that to happen.

In fact I have 7h15m and 8h have been two of my longest delays.

Dravokivich · 14-09-2017 10:30am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

In fact I have 7h15m and 8h have been two of my longest delays.

So you are well aware of the experience the other guy put forward, but went on to have a go at him instead? :rolleyes:

Mousewar · 14-09-2017 10:50am

To be honest I didn't realise it was an unofficial detraining. Everyone just started moving into the front carriage and I saw folk on the railway so I assumed it was official. It was only when I jumped off and some guy in a orange vest shouted at me that I realised this was a jailbreak.

goingnowhere · 14-09-2017 11:11am

Mousewar wrote: »

To be honest I didn't realise it was an unofficial detraining. Everyone just started moving into the front carriage and I saw folk on the railway so I assumed it was official. It was only when I jumped off and some guy in a orange vest shouted at me that I realised this was a jailbreak.

Thats the big problem, you discovered its a long way down from the floor to the ground and did not have the benefit of a ladder

The risk of injury was higher than the derailment in the first place

XPS_Zero · 14-09-2017 11:22am

Hold on so people did literally just start leaving the train? Without being told?

Wasn't that incredibly dangerous? Way more risky than staying where you were? You'd not get me going onto a train tracks unless there was a load of staff there telling me the line had been stopped.

Where did they go once they got onto the tracks? Did they walk back to DL?

goingnowhere · 14-09-2017 11:38am

3 separate jail breaks occured

XPS_Zero · 14-09-2017 11:46am

Was the line still operating in the other direction?

devnull · 14-09-2017 11:47am

Did the people just get off because the train stopped and they were given no information from the driver so they took it into their own hands?

XPS_Zero · 14-09-2017 11:52am

devnull wrote: »

Did the people just get off because the train stopped and they were given no information from the driver so they took it into their own hands?

While the lack of info is clearly an issue here....I don't think these people did the smart thing. I keep thinking what I would have done in their place.

I mean...all over those carriages (the new ones and since the refit of the old ones) there are signs saying what to do in an emergency that tell you to contact the driver, not leave the train unless instructed or unless its unsafe to stay on board. If there has been a violent jolt, the train stopping and you are there half an hour, before going to the drastic step of opening the doors and jumping out why not push the button on the speaker and say "hey driver, WTF is going on?"?

Short of there being an actual crash, or a fire, without staff telling me there is no way I'd get off a train onto what may be (for all i know) an active rail line, thats so painfully stupid I don't know where to start. I'm not one of these people who (as seen in many emergencies) sits there until someone offical tells them to move, if it's a dangerous situation, but that's not what this was, there was no crash no fire no lives were in danger...yet they went onto the rail line?

How far were they from the nearest station maybe it was spitting distance so they didn't think it was too risky? Maybe it was at that part just after you leave DL where there is loads of space on the left on the other side of the live line...you'd need more info but it still seems v unwise

goingnowhere · 14-09-2017 11:53am

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Was the line still operating in the other direction?

The city bound line was stopped at 1816, it is unclear if the Malahide bound DART actually moved off the platform and returned or was terminated immediately

At all time the overhead wires where live

Train was less than 100m from the platform

The official guidance on what to do is https://www.crr.ie/download/pdf/passengerguidelines.pdf

Mousewar · 14-09-2017 11:57am

The driver of the train was sound tbh. He came on every seven to eight minutes and said we'd be detrained but gave no real timescale. After about 45 minutes (this was following a previous wait of about 25 mins at Salthill due to a points failure) he said we'd be detrained in 15-25 minutes. Shortly after this I saw a passenger on the tracks and then I saw that people from the very first carriage were getting off. So, I assumed this was the detraining and followed everyone else into the first carriage (I was in the second carriage). I followed the queue of people to the door and it was only when I got to the open door that I realised there were no steps or any other means of getting down and no Rail staff anywhere. Anyway, I'm young so I just hopped down and so did most others. A rail staff member showed up then and rebuked me a little but all of us then just strolled up the tracks to the Dun loaghaire station (we were only a one minute walk from it). All services were stopped at this point, there wasn't another train to be seen on either track.

I caught up with the first passenger I saw on the tracks and he said they just pulled the lever at the door and pulled it open and climbed out.
Nice guy actually for what it's worth.

XPS_Zero · 14-09-2017 12:01pm

Mousewar wrote: »

The driver of the train was sound tbh. He came on every seven to eight minutes and said we'd be detrained but gave no real timescale.

Is this a train that was stuck due to the derailment or the actual train that was derailed? I'm getting confused here because some are saying they heard nothing from their drivers for 30 min and others now saying they were kept updated?

After about 45 minutes (this was following a previous wait of about 25 mins at Salthill due to a points failure) he said we'd be detrained in 15-25 minutes. Shortly after this I saw a passenger on the tracks and then I saw that people from the very first carriage were getting off. So, I assumed this was the detraining and followed everyone else into the first carriage (I was in the second carriage). I followed the queue of people to the door and it was only when I got to the open door that I realised there were no steps or any other means of getting down and no Rail staff anywhere. Anyway, I'm young so I just hopped down and so did most others. A rail staff member showed up then and rebuked me a little but all of us then just strolled up the tracks to the Dun loaghaire station (we were only a one minute walk from it). All services were stopped at this point, there wasn't another train to be seen on either track.

Did they know all services has been stopped? Had the driver told the passengers that?

I caught up with the first passenger I saw on the tracks and he said they just pulled the lever at the door and pulled it open and climbed out.

If you were that close to the station that's not as bad for them to jump out but all depends IMO on if the driver told you services were suspended. Not actually seeing a train near you means jack all, an ICR could bolt through there and hit you before you had a chance to blink.

Mousewar · 14-09-2017 12:05pm

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Is this a train that was stuck due to the derailment or the actual train that was derailed? I'm getting confused here because some are saying they heard nothing from their drivers for 30 min and others now saying they were kept updated?

I was on the derailed train. We got updates from the driver. I believe it was the train behind that appears to have not gotten updates

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Did they know all services has been stopped? Had the driver told the passengers that?

No, I don't think he told us services were stopped but we were there for nearly an hour and not one train passed us in all that time.

I would add that this all seemed very minor at the time. There was no air of panic and jumping down and pottering over to the platform all seemed very straightforward and undramatic to me.

XPS_Zero · 14-09-2017 12:09pm

Mousewar wrote: »

No, I don't think he told us services were stopped but we were there for nearly an hour and not one train passed us in all that time.

Ok well it's hardly unreasonable to conclude services were stopped.

You know it's funny because I studied disasters and emergency management and thing is in a major crises like a plane crash or a fire people tend to freeze in what we call the "deliberation phase" and often sit there and die from smoke inhalation or fire and won't move unless someone aggressively tells them what to do. I've been in fires where thick black smoke is wafting into a room and people won't evacuate until you go up to them and scream at them to get out.
(In a real disaster you have seconds not minutes, snap out of that trace and MOVE or you are dead, remember that)

So I find it funny that in what's the rail equivalent of a fender bender the passengers are so eager to take matters into their own hands. Though I guess an hour still did pass so it was hardly fast action on their part.

[13/9/2017] DART derailment at Dún Laoghaire

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