Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

TranslatorPS

A part of GAI's mindset is that the contract terms are such that a departure 6 minutes late from terminus or more is penalised as if not operated altogether - this is the NTA's fault, mind you - so it's easier to just curtail it/cancel it, especially if it's going to bring problems with driver working hours.

(What's curious in that, if the 18+76 operate to the same working timetable as they did when the L51/L52 came in [they're the newest duties I have at hand], of the four cancelled departures being lambasted at the minute, the latter two are duties returning from their breaks, but the first two are duties starting. A response on Twitter suggests that the return of the last one was also cancelled - as if the entire 11.05 ex Palmerstown 12.40 ex Sandymount lap was just thrown out the window.)

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119216580#Comment_119216580

As I’ve consistently said - apart from the staff retention issues at GAI, a lot of the blame has to fall at the NTA’s door for poorly drafted PSO contracts that don’t incentivise the companies to actually make an effort to operate departures that might otherwise be cancelled.

As it is, no such incentive exists.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119216580#Comment_119216580

On a 30 minute frequency route 6 mins late is not that bad. I think it's bad that the NTA do not distinguish high and low frequency routes like TFL do.

Is it possible that something unforeseen happened like a bus breaking down or a driver taken ill. Fines should be higher if two consecutive departures fail to operate.

StreetLight

Deprive a bus company of even more revenue, making it even harder for them to offer a proper service. I'm sure that makes sense in someone's mind....

p_haugh

A lot more delays with GAI services again today from what I've seen - for example, 5 Citywest bound 175s all cancelled this evening alone (5th was the 16:51 exUCD). A bunch of DL route trips cancelled too

DaBluBoi

And to think the Southern Orbitals are to be introduced THIS year...

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119216498#Comment_119216498

I'd love to know how they managed to lose four consecutive trips on the 18. The time of day would suggest that at least one bus was probably delayed in traffic earlier, and the driver opted (as is their right) to take their full break. Maybe it was a miserly short break anyway and the driver had no choice but to take it in full. Resolving traffic issues along routes, or the effect that traffic has on buses, would go a long way towards improving reliability. That's up to the NTA and local councils, and they don't seem to have any appetite to do that. On the one hand, they buy loads of shiny new buses, but on the other, they throw them out into traffic and couldn't care less about the people who rely on them.

Another highly likely theory is that one of those buses broke down. B5TLs, especially the slightly older ones, have a habit of doing that. They always used to have a shortage of buses around that time of the morning. I presume that's still the case, so getting a replacement one out might not be immediately possible.

It could have been a total oversight by whoever was in control at the time. Or maybe they simply thought they'd get away with it because it's usually a very quiet time of day on that route. I refuse to believe that it wasn't possible to fit a bus in there somewhere.

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217400#Comment_119217400

There is actually a distinction between low- and high-frequency routes in the contract. A high-frequency route is meant to be assessed based on excess waiting time (i.e. time above the typical frequency at the moment, so if the penalising EWT is 2.5 minutes and frequency is 10, then if there's a 13 min gap that's down for a penalty) and is any route that operates 5 buses per hour or more in the Mon-Fri interpeak (10-16). Everything else is a low-frequency route and is assessed on each trip's timings against timing points. Until the N6 came in, every GAI route was classified as low frequency.

No, the NTA's mistake is penalising a departure above 6 minutes late as if it didn't run. It's an insult to the whole concept of incentives. The better methodology would be to dock a minor percentage (but to make sure it still bleeding runs!) for a delay above 6 mins, and only penalize it as cancelled if the delay would make it depart after the next bus. This is roughly the penalty schema in place in my homecity, and it would make sure that buses don't drop off the face of the earth altogether.

It's actually interesting how I once got on a Swords/Balbriggan 33A that was 10 minutes late starting at the first stop in Swords and the thing actually operated (mind you, it was easily -20 by the time we reached Balbriggan...).

There is also some sort of a scheme to account for delays/cancellations outside of the company's powers (RTAs, etc.), but that's a different story.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119217795#Comment_119217795

Rumours are floating around that one of the S routes will be from Donnybrook - the S4 being thrown around as such - so GAI would only have the S2, S6, and S8 to contend with, and I am left wondering who's problem the L25 will be (GAI?). Either way, no matter how this is played out, there is going to be a major PVR increase - although not to the point of the 17A/N4/N6 change of 12 buses in service becoming 40...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119218042#Comment_119218042

Under the assumption that the 18s are still on the same duties as they were in December, the 10.45 and 11.05 were drivers returning off breaks, and I'm damn well inclined to believe it was a matter of driver taking the full break coupled with the stupid "6 mins late = did not operate" penalty system. The 10.05 and 10.25 would be starting duties, and bus shortage has been an issue with GAI pretty much since the 18 and 76 were taken over back in 2019, so yeah... But yes, it does seem most curious that some sort of alternative arrangement couldn't have been made.

mikeybhoy

Yeah I suppose having the S4 operating from Donnybrook isn't too bad an idea given UCD isn't far from the garage. You could also do the S2 from Conygham Road with handovers at Hueston.

The S2 is basically the 18 swapping it's Western routing with the 17 with a slight extension to Hueston and Poolbeg and vice versa for the S4 albeit being cut short at UCD and being extended to Liffey Valley whilst the S6 is more of less the same as the 175 with an Eastern extension to Blackrock and cut back to Tallaght. The only Southern orbitals that's routing is new rather than being a reshuffle of existing routes is the S8 although that has similarities to both the 75 and 175 and appears to be similar to the original Network Direct 175 proposal before the terminus was changed from DL to UCD.

I'm not sure where exactly the S2 will terminate Sean Moore Road where its proposed on the map now has a grade separated cycle lane that would make it unsuitable for laying over buses. They could use the road that leads out to the Pigeon House and have buses turn and lay over there should be plenty of room as trucks often turn in and out of the various industrial units on that road. Could layover there and not pick up passengers until the Sean Moore Road. Actually coming to think about it would an extension across the East Link to The Point not be a better idea to connect up with the N4 and the Luas.

I should hope the S6 and possibly the S4 will be using the reopened Owenstown Park entrance to enter and exit UCD the new UCD Village has a bus stop marked and ready to go for this purpose I'd imagine. I'd have the S6 use this but keep the S4 using N11 in order to allow for connections from it to the E spine.

Finally I do apologise for going off in a bit of an off topic tangent.

LXFlyer

The S2, 74 and L25 will all be Dublin Bus operated.

The S4, S6 and S8 will be GAI routes.

mikeybhoy

Are Go-Ahead short on buses aswell as drivers now. Saw a single decker on the 18 this afternoon.

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364783#Comment_119364783

They've been constantly short of buses since 2019. I suspect this is one of the reasons why they get away with never having enough drivers.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119366184#Comment_119366184

Thought they transferred more SGs from DB to alleviate this surprised it's still an issue now they've gone to Saturday plus.

Seems daft that DB never seem to be short on buses but GAI have problems in this regard yet nearly all were bought by the NTA. Mind you I did see DB putting single deckers on the 46a and 145 at peak times years ago.

DaBluBoi

You would've thought the NTA would allocate at least some of those single decker electrics to GAI, alongside paying for the charging infrastructure

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119366407#Comment_119366407

Would they have much use for them? Considering the electric single deckers are only for the O route which will be operated by DB. I think the NTA made a mistake buying the streetlites they should've just bought all double deckers for GAI.

Very little cost difference to run and it's not like any of the routes have low bridges or anything that would prevent a double decker from operating them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119364783#Comment_119364783

On an 18 that's a bit desperate alright. On a weekday too. A sardine can in Rathmines I'd say.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119366784#Comment_119366784

Probably would've managed it been the summer

mikeybhoy

Seen a Go-Ahead SG today up near the airport with L plates on it and a seat for the instructor. Wonder would the NTA be best pleased to be using their buses for training now.

StreetLight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119537055#Comment_119537055

Would that not be type familiarisation training?

Muller1991

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119537210#Comment_119537210

Nope, they could use any GT/SG Type for that. I've seen that bus around a couple of times between Tallaght and Dun Laoighaire.

Technically speaking its a PSV thats out of use. They have their own L Buses for that sort of thing

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119537210#Comment_119537210

Could be but odd to have a seat for the instructor if it's only being used for familiarisation purposes. Also would that not be done once the trainees have the test passed so no need for L plates.

john boye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119537055#Comment_119537055

I've seen it in town a couple of times. Probably have it spare with Saturday Times atm. And if it means them getting more drivers in then I'm sure the NTA are happy to let them use it.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119538623#Comment_119538623

It surprises they'd use a relatively new bus like an SG for this aswell. Would think one of their AXs would be ideal.

howiya

What's the latest with go ahead? Is it being sold?

d51984

Go Ahead have a couple of their own ex London trainers. Was it one of these you seen?

https://flic.kr/p/2nwVqBV

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119545830#Comment_119545830

Quite a few of my local TDs are pushing for their contract not to be renewed due to their uselessness. I know this because I’ve been complaining regularly to them and they’ve been getting the same nonsense copy and paste answers for the past 18 months/2 years. GoAhead seems to be a breeding ground for Covid if you believe them.

LXFlyer

They certainly have had PSO SGs out on route training from time to time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119546098#Comment_119546098

I'd believe the TDs and councillors alright

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119545842#Comment_119545842

No I've seen them alright. Have to say I like the livery on those probably better than the TFI one but no this one was a regular service bus in the original livery but with L plates and a seat for the instructor.

john boye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119546911#Comment_119546911

Yeah they look well. Makes me wonder what kind of livery they could have come up with for their orbital routes if they'd been allowed to instead of the one they started out with.