Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

The M50 has also started to become much more busier in the last few months compared to the last 2.5 years. There’s been plenty of significant delays in the past month that make running buses from Ballymount to further afield a real headache, and as someone said earlier, maybe this business model won’t ever be suited to Dublin bus transport.

I use both the N4 and N6 to a decent level too, both Bus Connected recently. The N4 has been uber-reliable, the perfect advertisement for public transport tbh. Now I know the N4 benefits from being the shiny new route. Whereas the N6 has had a good few cancellations, especially late night cancellations, lots of empty buses sitting at the Finglas terminus hours at a time.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605680#Comment_119605680

Yeah not as extreme as GAI but still goes on with DB however there was quite a bit of interworking going on with the Blanch locals prior to GAI. I believe DB used to interwork the 236, 238, 239 and 270 on the one bill which isn't too far off what GAI do although that may have been exclusively on a driver level.

One thing I think GAI lack is something similar to Euro/Universal where drivers and buses can be sent where needed it appears GAIs allocation/rostering system is too rigid and inflexible ie if there's a problem with a bus/driver there's no flexibility to cover it whereas having drivers who's duty it is to cover for unforeseen changes would make more sense.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605830#Comment_119605830

Surely it would make more sense if the 75 did a round trip Tallaght-DL-Tallaght then break in Ballymount as opposed to Tallaght-DL-63 roundtrip then break. Of course the 45a/59/63/111/184/185 would be far better served by an outstation similar to what GAI have at the Airport then by Ballymount in the DL/Bray area.

The 75 is too unpredictable a route to be interworked with other routes in reality. There is some case for interworking the 63 with the 59 and the 111 but having the 75 and the 45a interworked both long and busy routes shouldn't be happening.

When DB had the 63 there was actually one duty a week on a Saturday that did the 46a from town then did a round trip on the 63 in order to cover the 63 drivers break in DL. This used to occasionally result in VTs operating on the 63 instead of the usually allocated AV, AX or EV. Also when DB had the DL routes I believe they used to sometimes take buses and drivers off the 46a to cover the likes of the 45a, 63, 59 and 75 which was logical.

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119613841#Comment_119613841

Go Ahead used to do the same (I presume they still do), when there was nobody to drive a 59. If it was a quiet enough time of day, and the previous/next 75 were both running, they'd take a driver off the 75 to cover the 59. Or a driver might arrive into the depot to do one duty, and be asked if they wouldn't mind doing another one because whoever was supposed to do the 59, 111 or 185 rang in sick at the last minute.

Interworking is generally a disaster, and should only be used to cover breaks. It might work elsewhere, where buses have proper infrastructure and don't spend the whole time queuing in traffic, but it's ludicrous that someone living in Ballyogan should have to wait over an hour for a bus from Cornelscourt, just because there's heavy traffic on a totally different route in Nutgrove or Bray.

Go Ahead planned on having several outstations at the beginning, but for whatever reason (restrictive planning laws being a big one), it never happened.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119618500#Comment_119618500

Yeah the only one they managed to get was the Airport and even with that the buses still have to return to Ballymount for fuelling and cleaning.

Really though I think Go-Ahead would've been better off opening two depots either side of the Liffey instead of just Ballymount. A Northside depot in the Blanchardstown/Finglas/Ballymun area would make sense and Southside depot in the Sandyford area would make sense too given where their routes operate. I'd say Ballymount was the low cost option.

Really some of the blame again could go to the NTA in this regard as the NTA probably should have had some say in the depot provision but instead they buried their head in the sand and said that's a problem for the operator not us.

That was also part of the reason why the bidding process was so uncompetitive Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead being the only operators who bidded. TFL the authority who the NTA have based pretty much their entire business model off of have own the depots and rent them to operators. The buses on the other hand are provided by the operators instead of TFL with the exception of the NBFL the opposite of the NTA who own the buses but the operators own the depots.

Bumblebee2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119618583#Comment_119618583

Serious Questions need to be asked, while GA is widely knowing as a disasters dropping services and picking up fines for late runs, the NTA have awarded them with the W6/W4 Bus connects tender and there was other companies that are willing to get the work and are well able. The NTA are the ones still awarding this company with new runs,

DaBluBoi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622631#Comment_119622631

At least those routes have the advantage of being close to the depot at Ballymount. Also, all operators are suffering from the same problems; ya heard about what happened to Suirway just now?

That being said, I completely get your point about them butchering their timetables whilst introducing brand new routes to stretch out their resources even more. Seems pretty non-sensical, especially since they’re to implement the Southern Orbitals before them, which will take even more resources to implement. Unfortunately I can’t see this issue being resolved anytime soon, unless GAI are kicked out and replaced with DB, which seems almost implausible at this point

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119622631#Comment_119622631

NTA don't have have a say who they award a contract too has to be awarded to that offers the best deal on paper under EU law. Whether that works in reality is a different story.

Bumblebee2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623048#Comment_119623048

Yes I heard the other day about Suirway but there wouldn't be an Irish operator interested in these tenders other than BE,DB. GAI kicked out and DB take over will never happen, DB have the same problems for years but it wasn't a big issue as they were the only operator, there will be other companies in the mix in the next few years City Link/National Express/First Bus will all want work going forward and will do a better job than GA in my opinion NX and First Bus run better city operations than GA in the UK.

Bumblebee2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623441#Comment_119623441

The NTA award the tenders nobody else, Nothing got to do with EU law.....If that's the case GA wouldn't of won the first set of tenders as they hadn't of even got a depot in mind when the tender was put in, They only had a P.O Address as an office in Dublin.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119625146#Comment_119625146

The NTA do award the tenders but if say GAI could prove that they had the most competitively advantageous tender but it was still awarded to DB then GAI would win a case against the NTA if they took one.

dfx-

GAI could've promised leprechauns for every passenger and they would've won that tender because multiple operators is what the NTA wants and they were the only option.

Having said that you can only judge their performance based on what they said they would provide in their bid and what they are contracted to. Can we see that...

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119623441#Comment_119623441

Surely the fact that they cannot provide the services they had previously tendered for, could be used as a factor against them. They are atrocious.

TranslatorPS

If only the tendering process in Ireland was half as open to the public as it is in some continential countries...

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119630197#Comment_119630197

In fairness you can tar that brush with all of the main PSO operators to be honest.

Dublin Bus are no means as perfect in this as some people think. Don't let the fact their app doesn't show cancellations and the fact they don't list any on their website on social media trick you into thinking that it isn't happening. It is as others have said.

Bus Eireann in particular has already cancelled 39 services across 9 routes today and that's before you take into account the mess in Waterford where BE say the network is operating a reduced frequency but doesn't want to tell its patrons what that actually means which is exceptionally poor.

Tickityboo

I'll just leave this here!!

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119634280#Comment_119634280

Dublin Bus cancellations are far more likely to count down and then just disappear off the RTPI screen, as though the bus has come and gone. I've seen the same thing with GAI services too, but nowhere near as often. It means that the operator doesn't end up with embarrassing screenshots like the above.

Four consecutive buses not running would be a huge cock-up. It wouldn't have been that difficult to move one from elsewhere and squeeze it in the middle somewhere. If indeed it actually happened - buses can wrongly get marked as cancelled sometimes, due to human error.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119635628#Comment_119635628

To be fair most DB cancellations and curtailments in my experience are marked as such on the TFI app.

I have plenty of embarrassing screenshots of DB problems too not least this one from a few weeks back.

p_haugh

Just checked my local stop and suprise surprise, the last 17 from Blackrock is cancelled (the inbound from Rialto is also cancelled). The 22:20 155 ex bray is the only n11 DB route that seems to be cancelled however

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119635662#Comment_119635662

The app tells me the last two 45a's from Dun Laoghaire are cancelled too. Which I find hard to believe. Also, it'd make no sense, as the last three 75s are supposedly all running. Can't be that difficult to persuade or bribe someone to switch.

dfx-

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119635645#Comment_119635645

catching curtailments on the 16 doesn't really equate to the 45A etc. Nobody can run the 16 as it is with beyond full loadings. You could be on a busy 16 longer than a flight to the UK or the near continent or even a Dublin Airport security queue.

Same thing with 13/14/15/27/40/39s. The loadings and routes as well as lack of resources are going to cause them problems. The 13 and 40 south of O'Connell Street is a desert of services at 7-8pm.

Dublin Bus ran the orbitals fine enough in my experience with less resources and focus on them when they had them with the odd difficult child like the 17A and 75 before they have been split...

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119640035#Comment_119640035

The curtailments and cancellations on DB routes right now have nothing to do with excessive loadings or busy long routes, but everything to do with a lack of drivers. It’s widespread across the network. The example I posted is the worst that I’ve seen, but daily I see cancelled and curtailed services on the 14, 15, 15b (three in a row one evening), and the 26 in particular. That never happened before.

As it happens, as a long term user of the 16, I would have to disagree with you - in my experience it does have enough running time. Sure if there is something on in Croke Park there will be problems, but there wasn’t on that evening. It was a normal weekday evening.

That snapshot above was caused by staff shortages and nothing else. With only four buses operating the southern half of the route over a 90 minute period on a weekday, it would cause serious problems.

The reality is that the driver shortage is normally less obvious on DB routes normally because they have fewer low frequency routes compared to GAI, but to suggest that everything will suddenly be rosy if DB took over, is kidding yourself.

There is a real shortage of staff across the sector right now, but GAI take it to new levels.

I suggest that you look at the BE service updates page. The levels of regular cancellations in the northwest (Donegal, Sligo and Mayo) in particular, and regularly in Waterford too is massive, with entire routes cancelled on certain days.

As for back in the day, the 17, 18 and 75 were not exactly strong performers with regular cancellations when DB had them. They left the 75 to rot with an unachievable timetable for years, and that destroyed consumer confidence.

mikeybhoy

To be fair iirc the 75 timetable was improved towards the end of DB running the route and the running times seemed to be improved.

The problem with a lot of routes that went to GAI was low frequencies especially on Sundays for example the 184 only had one bus every 2 hours on a Sunday and the 114 didn't run at all. Now with GAI the 184 runs half hourly on a Sunday and the 114 runs hourly on Sundays.

That was unacceptable in my view having such poor frequency on a Sunday however the "solution" of bringing in GAI was likely trying to improve services by lower costs for example it's well known DB pay very high Sunday premiums to drivers however GAI only pay what time and a quarter or time and a half.

Let's face it tendering has been cost saving exercise that's back fired miserably for the NTA. Give routes to an operator who say they can deliver more for less then they expect a high standard of service in return forget it.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119640993#Comment_119640993

The problem was that the damage was already long done in terms of passenger confidence by DB not fixing the 75 timetable quickly enough. This is before the NTA became actively involved in timetabling services.

I should know as I spent several years attempting to commute on the 75, and it was a disaster.

DB took far too long to respond to the problems and plenty of people just gave up on it and indeed the 17.

You only have to read comments years later here and on social media to realise that.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119641064#Comment_119641064

And considering quite a significant number of people don't even know the difference between GAI and DB I don't see how that damage was repaired you only need to look at Twitter still to this day 4 years since GAI started operating to see people tweeting DB in relation to services now operated by GAI.

dfx-

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119640452#Comment_119640452

The problem on the major city routes and especially Network Direct routes have gone on long before the relatively recent staffing issues.

They are acute now.

" should know as I spent several years attempting to commute on the 75, and it was a disaster."

^^^^ this. that's why the route is so unsuitable for professionals. I've seen a hospital consultant use it too. (there are 3 or 4 hospitals on this route I don't want to DOXX them! )

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119641111#Comment_119641111

It never was repaired. Many people gave up and the current situation will just cause even more people to.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119641161#Comment_119641161

It is far worse than it ever was before.

For sure there have been some routes that have had running time issues such as the 13 and 40, but now many other routes that never had any issues before are now being affected, with significant cancellations and curtailments. I’ve never seen anything like the level of cancellations and curtailments that are happening on the 14, 15, 15a/15b, 16 and 26 for example.

That’s down to a lack of staff however you want to paint it, because it certainly isn’t running time problems.

mikeybhoy

One thing I will say which isn't a defence of either DB or GAI is that nearly every public transport operator in the developed world is suffering from staff shortages.