Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

john boye

Educating them to understand that things can and do go wrong maybe. Operators get penalised for dropped trips/cancellation so they don't just drop them for the craic.

Loads of dropped trips in DB atm too but in my experience a lot them are just down to the increased traffic recently. Often when, say, a 49/54A/150 is due on Dame St it doesn't show up as it's still stuck around Patrick Street on the way in on its previous inbound trip and is then told to go out special when it does eventually arrive in town. I assume GAI are having the same problems, especially around the big shopping centres they serve.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118354260#Comment_118354260

Any decent human being who have been raised well by parents or have worked in customer service, or has a basic knowledge of ethics should understand that without the need of educating. It's very hard to educate uneducated adults - they are often very critical to new information and close minded. Just a complicated breed overall.

dublinman1990

I'm delighted to hear about GAI's new recruitment campaign for being announced today. 180 new roles for the company seems to include people needed as bus drivers for the new routes from BusConnects Dublin.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/business/go-ahead-ireland-announce-recruitment-of-180-additional-staff-1252851.html

jippo nolan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118584357#Comment_118584357

Why did you spoil the news by including a photo of sleepy Ryan?

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118584357#Comment_118584357

DB are still looking for hundreds of drivers too. Trouble is, there aren't very many people out there who want the job and all the personal sacrifices that it involves. I've heard stories about some of their recent intake, and it seems like they're scraping the bottom of the barrel at this stage. Their shareholders won't like it, but the only answer is to make it a more attractive job and do whatever it takes to hire experienced professional drivers and stop their current ones from jumping ship to DB (where conditions aren't a whole lot better).

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118584893#Comment_118584893

But for some reason many people complaining in another thread how slow recruitment process in the DB is. So some potential driver applies but instead of waiting to weeks or even months to get the answer they decide to go somewhere else. Processes are slow and and badly organised. Why is that? If they really needed to get drivers, they were responsive and really on the ball.

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118587059#Comment_118587059

That's one of the reasons why if I was starting out, I'd 100% choose Go Ahead over DB. Their whole process is a lot faster and more straightforward and it's a great place to learn how to do the job (i.e. make mistakes, crack mirrors, etc) away from the city centre, before eventually applying to DB with a bit of experience under your belt. There's also an arrogance from the DB recruitment dept, that they're doing you a favour by even inviting you onto the premises. They'd want to get over that.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118587114#Comment_118587114

DB must be thinking they are the museum while nowadays they are just the old school public transport company with the transport logistics mentality and with their old fashion buildings and facilities. Nothing respectful left out of DB IMO. It's sad DB are such arrogant. That's a bad atmosphere to their drivers and a no sense of a modern culture within the company. I really hope Dublin city routes see one more private company (e.g. National Express) coming in. That would my hope that DB could start learning from the new entrants who has a different approach and are willing to change.

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118587259#Comment_118587259

I hope a third private company comes in too. Both DB and GAI need more of a threat hanging over them.

end of the road

actually when we look at it, dublin bus using go ahead to give new drivers the experience before then taking them makes some sort of sense, it wouldn't be how i would do it personally but i can see why doing it that way would be of some benefit to the company.

just like go ahead and DB national express or any other company would simply be doing as they are told and will have no freedom to operate outside the specified contract so would make no real difference to processes in other companies, let alone the people's bus company, unless they were willing to pony up and match term for term the conditions at db.

PirateShampoo

Where will this 3rd company be getting its drivers from?

If DB and GAI cant get drivers then what chance will a new company have? They wont be offering more money or better conditions.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118594860#Comment_118594860

It doesn't matter how many operators are there, it would still be same total of number of routes set by the NTA. If DB lose some routes and they go to the GAI or another new operators, DB wouldn't need all the extra drivers left and another operator would partially absorb that surplus.

Just the very beginning would be challenging to a new operator, especially getting these drivers in (this is probably what you're talking about). GAI also was recruiting a good few months, and they were getting new routes in phases so were constantly looking for staff and filling the new gaps.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596911#Comment_118596911

more then likely not unless they have the exact same conditions and terms as db or something else that would make it worth drivers while considering switching to them.

i don't think many TUPED over to go ahead from dublin bus at the time when they won routes.

and if it is the case that even db are having issues getting drivers then forget about any other operator unless they can come up with something attractive.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118587293#Comment_118587293

I would hope GAI disappear completely. From emailing all of my local TDs about the “service” provided I don’t think I’m the only one, and I’m 100% sure I’m not the only one fed up of their nonsense stock replies or downright lies if the response from 2 of the TDs are anything to go by.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596954#Comment_118596954

DB having problems because they are very slow in a recruitment process and miss some drivers losing the patience of waiting for the answer or even an update for weeks. DB also are very picky choosing the drivers. GAI are happy to take there drivers. I would guess that another operator would also see this opportunity.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118597005#Comment_118597005

i don't think it's much of an opportunity ultimately as a lot seem to transfer off to db in the end.

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118596989#Comment_118596989

If they did disappear, whoever replaced them would face the exact same problems. The majority of their problems are caused by either driver shortages (which is a problem across the whole industry, and won't be solved by the disappearance of any bus company) or by their buses spending most their time queuing patiently behind private cars. Your TDs might ask questions in the Dáil or in committees or whatever, but their time would be better served advocating for improved bus priority measures, especially in the suburbs. But they won't do that, because that'd be very bad news for motorists.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118597426#Comment_118597426

Even when they have drivers, they ditch stops etc in my experience. Seems to be a culture within the company that the customer doesn’t matter. That’s my experience anyway.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598092#Comment_118598092

Completely agree. DB has improved very little since the CIE monopoly times. An old school mentality without a real modern focus to the customer is still there.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598103#Comment_118598103

i think his post is talking about go ahead rather then db.

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118598092#Comment_118598092

They sometimes have no contractual alternative but to ditch stops (i.e. curtail a trip and take a shortcut to the nearest bus stop where it'll be able to depart on time). This is as a result of delays on a previous journey, almost always caused by traffic. The customer doesn't matter to the NTA - the bus companies do what they are contractually obliged to do to avoid fines. And Go Ahead is statistically the NTA's best performing operator by a considerable distance. There isn't a chance of them losing their contract. A more customer-focused approach would involve the NTA paying its contractors to have spare buses and drivers on standby (at busy termini like Tallaght, Blanchardstown, Dún Laoghaire, Bray, etc) at certain times of day to cover for late-running.

Alternatively, people could lobby their councils to solve the problem of buses getting delayed behind SUVs every morning, afternoon and evening.

TranslatorPS

At the very least when GAI don't operate, it's usually because of one of three reasons:

a) the previous trip was so late that the one not operated would also be ridiculously late (although I have issues with the way this is actually framed within the contract when compared to some contracts I know elsewhere in Europe - the NTA still have much to learn here IMHO);

b) there was no driver available to cover the duty (while it was pointed out earlier that it's an industry-wide problem, GAI are not too innocent in that their terms could be a little more welcoming - in other words, they could do well to improve their staff retention);

c) there was no bus available in the garage to pull out - this used to be an issue in the earlier days when GAI just didn't have enough buses to actually operate the service, so this could be fended off to the NTA, but at the same time there are little bits like the 18+76+236 duties taking their breaks in Ballymount garage, which frankly does increase the number of buses needed on the road, and this happened due to a now ex-GAI driver (this group of routes used to take their breaks in Liffey Valley SC - those who know what happened, they know).

Meanwhile, my experience of DB not operating a trip is actually more often down to either one of these two:

a) drivers deliberately messing around in order to drop pieces of work, be it trips or entire laps, or indeed entire duty pieces. Tricks such as driving slowly to arrive after the next departure so that the driver is sent up to start further along the route, or if well timed, is sent up to the handover point, or breaking late so that drivers can then play the "take my whole break, return late" card - I believe there was a motion years back to make drivers only take the legally required 45 minutes if their break started late so that they can return as close to the schedule as possible - of course it never went through;

b) spare drivers refusing to take a duty. I am told that for whatever reason this is possible. An example from my personal experience is from the last Dublin Bus 17A timetable, where Mon-Fri 17A/54 was a 11h45 spreadover duty (the longest s/over on the schedule back then) with a 3h25 break - essentially a split duty: if the rostered driver didn't show up, usually nobody from the spare drivers would take it, at least not in the morning. That there would be a 40 minute gap between 9.10 and 9.50 from Blanch? Pfffft.

Of course, GAI's point a also applies to DB, but sometimes it can be a coin toss whether the trip you're missing is due to truly external issues, or because of somebody tossing around...

Tickityboo

b) spare drivers refusing to take a duty. I am told that for whatever reason this is possible. An example from my personal experience is from the last Dublin Bus 17A timetable, where Mon-Fri 17A/54 was a 11h45 spreadover duty (the longest s/over on the schedule back then) with a 3h25 break - essentially a split duty: if the rostered driver didn't show up, usually nobody from the spare drivers would take it, at least not in the morning. That there would be a 40 minute gap between 9.10 and 9.50 from Blanch? Pfffft.

You're wrong I'm afraid a spare driver cannot refuse a duty that is within their working hours. However a driver who goes in on the bench to try and get an earlier finishing duty can refuse whatever duty is offered to them should they wish to do so.

Burt Renaults

a) drivers deliberately messing around in order to drop pieces of work, be it trips or entire laps, or indeed entire duty pieces. Tricks such as driving slowly to arrive after the next departure so that the driver is sent up to start further along the route, or if well timed, is sent up to the handover point, or breaking late so that drivers can then play the "take my whole break, return late" card

This applies to Go Ahead too. Although their tighter turnaround times (and insistence on never running more than a minute early, even at the end of a journey, where an extra few minutes might ultimately prove useful) mean that a driver doesn't even need to "throw the anchor down" to get a curtailment. On certain routes, all they have to do is drive in accordance with company regulations and the law, align the bus neatly with the footpath, wait until passengers are seated before moving off smoothly, etc. On plenty of occasions, I did 90% of a trip on-time, stopping frequently to ensure that I wasn't running early, in the full knowledge that I'd be hitting heavy traffic near the end. And with only five minutes turnaround time, the next trip was guaranteed to get curtailed.

devnull

a) drivers deliberately messing around in order to drop pieces of work, be it trips or entire laps, or indeed entire duty pieces. Tricks such as driving slowly to arrive after the next departure so that the driver is sent up to start further along the route, or if well timed, is sent up to the handover point, or breaking late so that drivers can then play the "take my whole break, return late" card

There are very many variations on that game and there are so many ways a driver can drag out how long a lap takes them that haven't even been mentioned in your post and some are more obvious than others. But lets be honest, it happens outside Ireland too so is not exclusively an Irish problem.

However with the fact there is now vehicle tracking for depots and real time position data, it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be 10 years ago where a lot of this was much harder for the operator to spot as they didn't have the data feeds that they have accessible nowadays.

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118611996#Comment_118611996

This wasn't explicitly clarified to me at the time I heard the explanation, so thanks. Then again it could have been assumed that I was giving out about a particularly long duty (such as the one I mentioned there), but nonetheless, that's much better.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118612305#Comment_118612305

I vehemently oppose any and all running early on the principle of betraying those awaiting in favour of those already on-board, but that doesn't change the fact that running times are seriously messed up on some routes - especially those routes that still use the original running times that went into force when GAI took over the routes (in particular, 33A, 33B, 102, 104, 184, 185, 238 come to mind - 239 was particularly impossible as well). The problem with traffic is that it's of course unpredictable, and hence so are the actual times, but I dare think that much can be still done on that front. Also, while at it - they should avoid the absolute mess they're making of the 17 and 18 where each trip appears to have its own running time profile - that is not how AVL data estimation should work nor be used, as I suspect that's how they got to that particular mess.

GAI can afford to attempt tighter turnaround times simply because they have a better grip on actual running times than DB do, but this is heavily interconnected with my previous paragraph, so here we are.

(Yes - I did consider applying to GAI for the scheduler position when it came up twice in the last 7 months: for a whole 5 seconds, as I am in no position to seek work in Dublin at the moment.)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118613364#Comment_118613364

Of course there are numerous ways of messing around here - I merely listed the ones that came to mind when writing this.

Another aspect of this is that there are often times when running times are just insufficient for the route. Dublin Bus' AVL timings aren't exactly the most generous things on the planet, so you can be guaranteed that if an AVL trip arrives at terminus after the next departure on paper, there is a noticeably small chance it'll make it in reality. (Alas, this isn't a DB topic.)

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118587293#Comment_118587293

Being honest, the last thing passengers need is to have to go through the trauma of yet another brand new operator learning the ropes. It takes a new operator between six and nine months to get up to speed, as it did with GAI, and from a passenger perspective this isn’t good.

devnull

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118616991#Comment_118616991

I think the thing with Go-Ahead was though that they appointed a fair few management that had no experience of the Irish bus market and had never run services here beforehand. They were not just new to the Dublin City bus service network, they were new to running buses in Ireland full stop and I think that hardly helped them. Essentially they had a plan which probably looked good in theory, but in practice it was not so straightforward and the lack of that practical understanding and experience of running buses in Dublin etc, really showed.

I was speaking to someone connected to the bus industry in the UK a few weeks back who has also worked in Ireland and he told me that both National Express and Go-Ahead felt that they could just treat it as similar to a UK bus company and run it in a similar way and that most of their learnings from the UK would be equally valid here as people are the same and the markets are similar and that simply isn't and wasn't ever the case.

Leon Daniels, who spearheaded the takeover of Aircoach by First all those years ago, also recently commented in a podcast that this is a mistake that First also made and spoke about how the UK industry thinks it knows the Irish market more than it actually does. To paraphrase him, It might look similar to the UK in some ways, but it's not. That's not to say that anyone from the UK shouldn't work in the market over here, just local knowledge really is essential and required and it was pretty obvious early on that Go-Ahead lacked that.

I'm not totally against another operator coming in personally, but it has to be one who actually knows the operating environment and if it's one who does not know the operating environment then they need to get in a management team who do know it. Parachuting a whole management team in from the UK who have no experience here was always going to lead to the kind of problems that Go-Ahead had. The NTA also need to take these things into account more when assessing bids and I would even want experience of the Irish market and understanding of it to be part of the tender review process. We need to prevent what happened at the start with Go-Ahead happening again, without doubt.

mikeybhoy

Go-Ahead going back to regular M-F timetables from tomorrow

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778703#Comment_118778703

Farcical that they were given 2.5 months on a Saturday schedule ni the first place.