Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119546169#Comment_119546169

They’ve sent me on the correspondence between themselves, GoAhead and the NTA Oireachtas Liaison.

I don’t need to believe them, I’ve seen the letters.

Tarabuses

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119545830#Comment_119545830

If you mean Go Ahead Group, the parent of Go Ahead Ireland, then yes it has been sold for £650m.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119548057#Comment_119548057

Something like this perhaps? https://www.flickr.com/photos/60501971@N08/52138986465/

I actually prefer the first TFI livery on the GAI buses over the green and yellow livery.

john boye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119549470#Comment_119549470

That's not bad at all either. Their Manchester livery is decent too.

I didn't mind the original NTA livery until they slapped that random yellow blob on the front, it just became a mess then.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119551163#Comment_119551163

I think it's better to use the same livery for both DB and GAI in order to keep them integrated just a pity the NTA couldn't do very good job on this not sure if I agree with using the same livery for city services and provincial routes mind you.

I think the original TFI actually looks best on the coaches. I think the VBs and the GAI LFs look really good in the TFI livery so I don't see why they couldn't have kept the original TFI livery for commuter/provincial routes and use the yellow and green for city services.

dublinman1990

The green and grey GAI training buses are ex London Hybrids. There are currently 3 of them in their depot in Ballymount. I have not seen them out on the road around my part of Dublin yet. The livery does look nice on them. I think they are using them to train and up skill their drivers when they take the W4 & W6 routes as part of BC next year.

I also discovered last week that GAI have a link to their LinkedIn page on the GAI website. On that LinkedIn page; GAI put up a post from 4 months ago to say that their staff are undergoing a IMI training course for Hybrid & Electric vehicles at a college in Baldoyle in North Dublin.

Would I be right to assume at this point that having the ex London Hybrid buses in their Ballynount fleet counts as part of it's official college training course?

Or are these hybrid training buses used as for completely separate purposes?

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119556194#Comment_119556194

They are standard training buses used to train new mostly B licence holders. Mostly see them on the Northside in the Finglas area as that's where the driving test for large vehicles is carried in Dublin.

The training would be for mechanics I'd imagine. They'll probably use them as ferry buses aswell I'd imagine.

mikeybhoy

See Go-Ahead have been fined over 500k for buses not operated wonder will this have a big impact on their future as an operator here in Ireland.

https://wicklownews.net/2022/09/mcgahon-welcomes-national-transport-authority-fining-go-ahead-e526000/

LXFlyer

I wonder what fines Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann received for the same period (just in the interests of perspective)?

john boye

I think the NTA have to decide by next month whether to extend the GAI contract by another year from October 23.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119598198#Comment_119598198

constant complaints on the local FB groups about GAI's operation of the 184, 185 and 45a routes - I've seen screenshots from the app where 3 45a's are cancelled in a row and claims of last buses being cancelled as well leaving people stranded. Seems to be a bit of a shambles - IDK how it compares with DB's local routes but I haven't seen the same level of complaint about them.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602510#Comment_119602510

True I thought Go-Ahead were okay when they first started out but in the last 6 months or so they've become a joke. At least DB always go out of their way to ensure the last bus operates GAI don't. Whilst DB have remained on normal times GAI have gone to reduced timetables.

All GAI have to do to stop their buses constantly being cancelled is pay their drivers the same money and give them same working conditions as DB but they won't. Don't know if that's a case of they genuinely can't afford to pay drivers the same or their just too miserable to do so.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602510#Comment_119602510

While not minimising the issue, there have been massive levels of cancellations and curtailments for Dublin Bus too over the last six months, including three buses in a row on routes being cancelled. It's masked by the fact that frequencies tend to be higher than those on GAI routes. Bus Éireann have faced serious problems, especially in the northwest, where the levels of cancellations have been very high, with entire routes cancelled on certain days.

While not minimising the issues that GAI have, this isn't something confined to that company, which is why I would be interested to see what the penalties levied on the other operating companies are.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602510#Comment_119602510

Three 75 buses cancelled in a row too in the same direction from dun laoghair to tallaght

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602641#Comment_119602641

It's obvious it's affecting GAI worse though as they've been the only operator to move to Saturday plus times. I can't speak for BE in the northwest as I live in Dublin but I've seen a few cancellations on DB routes and some running short to the cc only but nothing to the level of GAI.

At least with the short workings to the cc it's better to have a route operating part of the way than not operating at all.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602753#Comment_119602753

On one evening recently, three 15b in a row were cancelled and on another five out of 11 route 16 services did not operate south of Parnell Square. By any stretch of the imagination that is not just a "few cancellations".

One only has to look at the line of parked up buses on Eden Quay (caused by cross-city services being curtailed) to realise that there are serious issues at DB as well.

Which is why I would like to see what the level of penalty being applied is across the operating companies.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602839#Comment_119602839

All I'm saying is GAI have gone to Saturday plus times and are still seriously struggling btw whilst DB have stuck to normal MF timetables the whole time so that suggests to the lay man that GAI are having worse issues.

At least when DB services only operate to the cc they operate part of the route better than not operating any of the route at all. Last Friday night I believe the last N6, 75 and 185 didn't operate in either direction at least DB always go out of their way to make sure the last service operates including instructing the driver of the penultimate of the night service to wait and operate the last bus instead.

I support fining operators who don't run services also but only if that's relative to the volume of cancellations and fining more if the last bus is not operational. Last buses being cancelled is not only highly inconvient for passengers but is also in my mind a safety issue if vulnerable induviduals are left stranded.

However there is a solution to the operational issues and it's a solution the operators don't appear to like very much offer better pay and conditions to drivers and you will solve the shortage of drivers in no time. Its not really a shortage it's a shortage of people willing to do the job on pay and conditions that they deem unattractive. Anyone over 21 with a car licence can be trained to drive a bus so make the job more attractive to people and more will come.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119215505#Comment_119215505

Go Ahead routinely cancel the last scheduled departure

john boye

DB certainly were struggling with cancellations during the summer with 2 and 3 departures in a row cancelled at times and probably should have gone to some kind of reduced schedule to help with reliability but the problem seems to have improved in recent weeks (albeit some depots are still struggling).

GAI went to a Saturday + schedule which we assumed was for the summer but we're now well into September and it's still in place. And many departures are still not operating. It does make you wonder if they'll ever be able to go back to a full schedule.

I think it's a bit naive though to think that pay increases and improvements to Ts&cs will automatically fix the problem. By all means do that but I think the nature of bus driving and the sacrifices that drivers have to make just doesn't appeal in the slightest to most young people these days and it'll take a lot more than money to get younger people to become drivers and also stick to it.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119603297#Comment_119603297

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119602911#Comment_119602911

As I said then, last buses should never be cancelled, and quite clearly the NTA have drafted the contracts poorly, because the penalties for doing so should be so large to ensure that this never happens. There is a higher penalty for cancelling the last departures, but that penalty clearly isn't high enough. That needs to change when the next contract is awarded.

The contracts also only penalise individual cancellations, but they don't impose increased penalties for successive cancellations. That also needs changing, with graded penalty levels added.

As I said earlier, I am not in any way diminishing the problems that people are experiencing from GAI, as I've suffered from missing departures myself. But the notion that this can all suddenly be solved by returning the services to Dublin Bus is somewhat naive, as they are suffering from labour shortages too and have had large numbers of cancellations and curtailments, but they tend to be less obvious. It's all well and good saying that at least DB operate some services to half way, but it's not much good for those on the other half!

As a general comment, there is a general labour shortage in the market right now and that isn't going to change by suddenly throwing money at it by increasing pay despite what you seem to think. Companies still have to be run responsibly, and there isn't a magical pot of money available. Dublin Bus now have a pay agreement in place with their staff, which gives some certainty to anyone starting there, but even there, it would seem that there appears to be increasing levels of staff turnover. As service levels increase, and more 24 hour routes added, I suspect that staff retention will become more of an issue than it has been before, as working those extended hours makes the job less attractive. At the same time, it may well be that the GAI business model isn't suited to the Irish market. Time will tell.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604383#Comment_119604383

The thing is though Dublin Bus has a larger pool of staff and fleet to absorb issues. So less buses on DB routes get cancelled. The travelling public simply have little or no confidence in Go Ahead but have infinitely more confidence in Dublin Bus.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604383#Comment_119604383

I havent read in detail how the contract penalties work but I am beginning to think that Bus Companies get incentivised to cancel a bus so it doesnt show up late on their punctuality statistics.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604596#Comment_119604596

Well you have to remember that these days Dublin Bus have fewer low frequency routes. Missing a departure on a higher frequency route isn’t as obvious. But it is happening.

I have already mentioned one evening a few weeks back where out of 8 scheduled departures in a row on the 16, five of them did not operate south of Parnell Square (double checked it). The 26 regularly has cancelled services. There were three 15b services in a row cancelled one evening recently.

Very few evenings go by where buses aren’t curtailed or cancelled on the 14, 15, 27 or 151.

You only need look at the TFI app to see this.

If Dublin Bus took the services back from GAI then I’d be pretty certain you would still see cancellations, but I suppose probably not last departures. They don’t have spare drivers and with the ongoing labour shortage, it is going to be challenging to find staff.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604612#Comment_119604612

The penalties in the contracts are not sufficient. End of story.

Cheaper also to cancel than operate late.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604383#Comment_119604383

I agree 100% with about half of what you're saying.

I never said the issues would magically disappear if the routes were returned to DB. DB had some issues with the GAI operated routes prior to GAI taking them over noticed a particularly high number of cancellations at weekends compared to weekdays on these routes.

I've said that when GAI first took over I didn't think there were too many problems in fact I'd say I'd noticed a slight improvement to services compared to when DB operated them however post covid I've noticed a serious deterioration in GAI operated services.

Okay there isn't a magical pot of money available but the NTA seem to be able to find the money to pay for bus connects and other projects okay some of that maybe nessecary but the optics don't look good for the NTA when they struggle to keep services running at present. Maybe it would be more responsible if some of the investment in public transport is redirected towards keeping services normally as opposed to putting high levels of investment in future projects and expansion.

I can see other issues with GAI for example their Ballymount location is a problem due to the high amount of dead running required to get to and from outer termini with the exception of the 17, 18, 76/a and 175 somewhat. The M50 traffic creates an issue on their DL/Bray and Northside routes particularly when it comes to drivers getting back to the depot on time and out to start late duties on time. Early morning fine as not much traffic on the road at 6-7am in the morning.

john boye

Valid point about GAIs Ballymount base and the distance from some of their termini. Another problem I feel is their widespread interworking. If a duty on the 17 is off then that can mean some departures on the 114 won't operate either. Some duties in Dun Laoghaire seem to work across multiple routes. That just cancels departures on even more routes if there's no driver for it.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605446#Comment_119605446

Yeah true I believe a lot of it is a cost saving strategy in order to try and get drivers to do as many miles as possible in a duty. That being said though you could the same that if an inbound trip delayed then the outbound trip won't operate either.

Also DB have some interworking too. For example the 14 and 61 and the 46a and 47 are DB routes that are interworked although not to the same extent as GAI.

john boye

Oh I know DB interwork but nothing like GAI does, relative to. Also scheduling say a 75 to go from Tallaght to DL and then do, say, a 45A is on a different level to having a bus work in as 7 and back out as a 7A.

To the best of my knowledge though, the routes you mentioned aren't actually interworked, unless it's case of a 14 breaking in town and going on to the 61 after break or something like that. They do share the same pool of drivers though I think

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119605549#Comment_119605549

It's about driver hours too. For example, it makes sense for a driver starting in Ballymount in the afternoon to do a 75 to Dun Laoghaire from the Square, a short distance away. But there's no way that they'll then enough time to immediately do another 75 to the Square and back. So they're given a <10 min turnaround in DL before doing a 63 - or very occasionally a 45a - up and down before their break. This practice can cause chaos on the 63 in particular, especially on weekday afternoons.

TranslatorPS

GAI pools their duties as follows:

[0] Mon-Fri split shifts; [1] 175; [2] 45A+59+63/A+75/A; [3] 45A/B+111; [4] 45A+111+184+185; [5] 33A+33B+102; [6] 17+114; [7] L51+L52+104+220/A+238+270; [8] 18+76/A+236/A; [9] school service extras.

Admittedly I'm not sure if the N6 pool just replaced the 17A pool directly or what the story actually is.

When the L51 and L52 replaced the 239, a lot of interworking was actually toned down in that package: buses stay on the L51 or L52 throughout the day with just limited route changes, and even duty mixing is limited between the L52 and the 104+220 or 238 or 270.

A large portion of interworking is due to the running times and trip timings making it inefficient to run buses on just one route in a circle when there's another service it can work earlier. The 75 is heavily mixed into 45A+59+63 because it's used to bring the buses closer to Ballymount in revenue: for most of the day, 75s arriving in Tallaght have drivers about to finish their day, and similarly 75s departing from The Square are drivers just after starting their duty. Of course there's some interworking that only really happens at roster level, like pool "4" above, where most duties would have either DL (45A and 111) or Bray (184 and 185) routes only for the entire day, they're just mixed in that some days may be in Bray whereas others might be in DL.

For comparison, Dublin Bus interworking at the moment amounts to:

7/A/B/D - negligent as very few duties would work out of Mountjoy Square on the bus they just arrived on without breaking, but it's there; 14+61 - only at driver level - it used to include the 161 before GAI; 15A/B/D - only at driver level, 15A and 15B/D buses are kept separate; 26+L53 - varies a lot, there's some route changing in LVSC, but just as likely to stay on just one route - the 26 used to be part of the 66 family before the C Spine; 27+77A from Ringsend only - only at driver level; 38/A/B/D+70 - mostly at driver level, but there is some terminus bus mixing as well; 39/A - mostly at driver level; 40/B/D from Harristown only - only at driver level between cross-city 40 and the 40B/D, but the latter two are mixed at terminus as well; 41/B/C - ignorable, not to the level of the 7s, but still; 42+43 - it used to be driver level only, but it may have changed; 44/B - only at driver level; 46A+47 - only at driver level; 65/B - only at driver level; 68/A+69 - varied, depending on the time of the day; 79/A - ignorable, it's there at driver level and to minor extent at bus level; 145+84X - a lot of the morning 84Xs would go empty to Heuston to continue as 145s - it used to include the 184 before GAI; C1+C2 - route changes happen at either terminus throughout the day; C3+C4 - night service mixed at both termini, but daytime mixing at Ringsend only; H2+H3 - ideologically a remnant of old 31/A/B+32, but now it's a lot more mixed now than before, with a lot more bus mixing; L58+L59 - route changes at either terminus.

If it's not listed, it operates as a standalone route or it's formed completely out of duties that aren't associated with any routes (Universals, etc.), but memory may have failed me too. Interworking "only at driver level" means that buses stay on one route throughout the day (perhaps with just once-off exceptions), but duties may be mixed by including pieces on different routes before and after the break.

One of the wildest schedules used to be the 26+66/A/B/E bill up until last year's C Spine introduction, which could see a bus become anything upon arrival at Mountjoy Square (just as likely to stay on the same road as to rebrand), and in fact included route changes in Maynooth between the 66 and 66E as well - although it was a lot more calm on the weekends.

As I said above, "[a] large portion of interworking is due to the running times and trip timings making it inefficient to run buses on just one route in a circle when there's another service it can work earlier". This is particularly evident with GAI's low frequency services - they operate a lot of routes that run every 30 or every 60 minutes. There is nothing worse than a route whose running time from terminus A to terminus Z is very similar or just above that same route's frequency or half thereof, such as the f-60 routes, as it makes for extremely inefficient work - a route that takes 65 minutes from A to Z and 65 min back operating at f-60 means that a bus has to waste away 50 minutes for every three hours (27.7%) doing nothing useful, and the same applies to a route that takes 35 min each way at f-60, except it's even worse as it's 50 minutes out of 120, or 41.6% of the time. The argument that it ensures that delays don't affect the service isn't worth it when it means that another driver has to be provided and rostered to cover the service (and the most expensive element of every kilometre covered should, no matter what, be the driver, followed by the fuel - and a bus+driver standing at a terminus means that the kilometres before and after it become more expensive). Hence, if a bus can be made do anything else other than standing around, well then, all the better. DB can largely ignore the problem because they don't really run that many low frequency services any more - and the ones that they do are optimised decently enough for what they are - so they can just keep the routes scheduled separately (another argument is that there aren't that many multi-route termini either), because the pool of work is large enough to create an efficient enough schedule - and you'll notice a few of the less frequent services are either attached to each other (42+43, 68+69), or to some far more frequent service (14+61, 39/A, 44/B).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119604383#Comment_119604383

For all the reading I have done of the GAI contract and its schedules, I haven't been able to find anything to indicate a heavier penalty for cancelling the last service - only for not operating mileage (as well as the abhorrently stupid contract phrasing regarding departures starting 6 or more minutes late being counted as not operated at all...).