Dublin North Quays - now double bus lane

lawred2

wait4me wrote: »

A shock this morning. New road lineage from Ormond Quay to Batchelors Walk creates a double bus lane and one single traffic lane. This will cause mayhem when traffic comes back after summer holidays!

Great news.

magicbastarder

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Then, why did you say the following?

they're not self-contradictory. we know how many private vehicles use the quays. it was a bit of a leading question - we knwo that pretty much all private car drivers using the quays are 'inconvenienced' in the morning, but there aren't that many of them. not compared to the numbers of bus passengers inconvenienced by traffic jams.

Interested Observer

I think it's Ormond Quay on the northside where the double bus lane begins (I wouldn't be able to name and place everywhere along the quays I must admit), I cycled down there this morning and all the car traffic was merging into the one lane anyway, even though apparently it's not enforced until the 20th? Anyway made my life a lot easier for sure.

LXFlyer

Interested Observer wrote: »

I think it's Ormond Quay on the northside where the double bus lane begins (I wouldn't be able to name and place everywhere along the quays I must admit), I cycled down there this morning and all the car traffic was merging into the one lane anyway, even though apparently it's not enforced until the 20th? Anyway made my life a lot easier for sure.

The double bus lane starts on Lower Ormond Quay after the junction with Jervis Street.

LeinsterDub

Avada wrote: »

Personally, I don't think any amount of bus lanes will change driver behaviour.

The only thing that will get people out of their cars is a congestion charge for the city centre imo.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Canal_Cordon_Report_2016.pdf


Mode 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016
Car 58,664 58,686 58,897 58,232 58,047 55,745 55,343 54,458 53,033 53,064 51,908
Cycle 4,839 5,676 6,143 6,326 5,952 6,870 7,943 9,061 10,349 10,893 12,089

Driver behaviour has and is being changed

NuMarvel

LXFlyer wrote: »

The double bus lane starts on Lower Ormond Quay after the junction with Jervis Street.

Media reports and the map devnull posted earlier say it starts at Ormond Quay Upper, from around the Ormond Hotel. And that's what I recall from driving through at the weekend.

Avada

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Canal_Cordon_Report_2016.pdf


Mode 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016
Car 58,664 58,686 58,897 58,232 58,047 55,745 55,343 54,458 53,033 53,064 51,908
Cycle 4,839 5,676 6,143 6,326 5,952 6,870 7,943 9,061 10,349 10,893 12,089

Driver behaviour has and is being changed

Without a doubt there have been drops, but not to the extent needed imo

magicbastarder

interesting to note that in the canal cordon count for 2016, the number of motorbikes exactly equals the number of people travelling by motorbike - no provision for pillion passengers!

Avada

magicbastarder wrote: »

interesting to note that in the canal cordon count for 2016, the number of motorbikes exactly equals the number of people travelling by motorbike - no provision for pillion passengers!

That seems to be the case for cars as well, unless I missed something

schemingbohemia

Avada wrote: »

That seems to be the case for cars as well, unless I missed something

No, fairly sure cars are given a 1.3 rate.

magicbastarder

page 6 of the document states 51,908 cars in 2016, but page 12 states 64,885 people carried in cars. they're assuming average occupancy of 1.25.

Avada

schemingbohemia wrote: »

No, fairly sure cars are given a 1.3 rate.

That would make sense, but they don't seem to mention it.

Edit: Nope, I just missed it

Seaswimmer

LXFlyer wrote: »

The double bus lane starts on Lower Ormond Quay after the junction with Jervis Street.

What are the bus lane hours??

Topgear on Dave

Did anyone hear Pat Kenny discussing the traffic changes this morning?

Discussing it with Councillor Paddy Smith?

I think Pat likes his car :pac:

GreeBo

monument wrote: »

[*]There will be a large shot of extra capacity when the private bus company takes over 10% of Dublin Bus routes, and the Dublin Bus buses are freed up to run on their other routes.

My understanding is that the 10% private will actually be using the DB fleet, they dont have their own buses?

Avada

GreeBo wrote: »

My understanding is that the 10% private will actually be using the DB fleet, they dont have their own buses?

They'll be using NTA buses. Since 2012, the NTA have been purchasing the buses, DB no longer do.

But that's probably for another thread.

LXFlyer

NuMarvel wrote: »

Media reports and the map devnull posted earlier say it starts at Ormond Quay Upper, from around the Ormond Hotel. And that's what I recall from driving through at the weekend.

There are lane changes starting on Ormond Quay Upper with cars for Jervis St crossing to the inside lane, the bus lane moving to the middle and a general traffic lane being maintained on the right.

This continues until Jervis St and from there eastwards the two inside lanes are bus lanes, one of which will be used for bus stops.

The detailed maps are in the documents in an earlier post of mine on this forum:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104192041&postcount=6

Padraig Mor

Deedsie wrote: »

For anyone who drives from outside Dublin. Do yourself a favour, ask your employer to get you an expressway (or equivalent) bus tax saver ticket. Save yourself thousands of euros each year and don't deal with the stress of traffic congestion. Cycle from your home to the expressway (or equivalent) bus stop. Lock the bike there and cycle home after your return expressway (or equivalent) journey.
.

Yes, that's a practical solution for those who drop kids / collect kids / need to check on elderly relatives / have appointments / move around on the job etc - not to mind leaving them at the unreliable mercy of CIE and its unions. The demonisation of the private motorist continues unabated from the usual quarters, ignoring the reality that their 'solutions' suit them but not others - as far as I can see, a whole pile of those drivers who attract so much ire drive as they have little practical alternative; I'm sure in most cases they'd love to hop on pubic transport and leave the misery of the commute behind, but it just doesn't work for them. (I don't live in Dublin BTW, lest anyone think I'm clogging up the quays etc).

amcalester

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Yes, that's a practical solution for those who drop kids / collect kids / need to check on elderly relatives / have appointments / move around on the job etc - not to mind leaving them at the unreliable mercy of CIE and its unions. The demonisation of the private motorist continues unabated from the usual quarters, ignoring the reality that their 'solutions' suit them but not others - as far as I can see, a whole pile of those drivers who attract so much ire drive as they have little practical alternative; I'm sure in most cases they'd love to hop on pubic transport and leave the misery of the commute behind, but it just doesn't work for them. (I don't live in Dublin BTW, lest anyone think I'm clogging up the quays etc).

What percentage of the available road space do you think should be allocated to private motorists?

Someone said further up the thread that private vehicles account for 20% of the traffic on the quays yet will be allocated 33% of the road space.

Seems to me that private motorists are already well taken care of.

monument

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Well if I must mention particular posts, it might come across as attacking the poster wouldn't it. Nevertheless, here are some posts which are rather one-sided:

All mild and most just a shot of realty -- not worth your grandstanding.

And I can see why you opted for grandstanding -- your direct replies don't add up to much of a debunk of what was said.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Why not ask yourself why current holiday goers use the car during their normal routine before labeling them as the cause?

Most of the current holiday goers will be going back to buses, trams, and bicycles -- but very nice try to imply the good working people are all motorists.

You know in more half the location along the quays bicycles outnumber cars at peak times?

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Again, this is just a one-sided observation without asking why the least efficient user is a least efficient user.

The poster was pointing out the realty, even if it could be put nicer.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

I think the fact that they work is a very valid need for the trip given that they would be paying taxes to the government etc. Moreover, going to the gym and then going to work is something that would take many times the length by public transport which is where flexibility of having a car comes in.

The person's work commute isn't the reason for using the quays. Tons of gyms close to the person's work place.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

However, there is no commitment by the transport providers to provide for the inconvenienced motorists.


This is all very well and good. Thankfully, after decades of petitions, the Phoenix Park Tunnel was opened up to passenger services. Moreover, the Luas Cross City project is finally approaching completion. So, this should soften the blow partially. However, much of the remaining measures are just rejigging or privatization of existing routes without the mention of new ones to cater for the displaced car users with no attractive alternative in place.

Nothing, just:

-- a new more direct rail service with extra capacity and connectivity

-- a new tram extension adding to connectivity and capacity

-- new buses across the bus network

Millions in investment in Luas, the tunnel service and new buses but to you it's nothing?

What do you want Dart and Metro to displace well under 800 people per hour? ...800 is the estimate of number of people in around 500 cars per hour on the quays.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

In this example, it is as laws are inevitably being broken when blocking buses and trams given that space allocated to them.

Is that a joke? Do you ever be in the city centre at rush hour? The share volume of traffic is the problem and a result of it is usually inevitably low-level law breaking.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

As long as they abide by the law, it isn't "incredibly inconsiderate". If their end lacks even basic direct connectivity to the center, their trip by car is justified. On the other hand, inconveniencing them is "incredibly inconsiderate" as it's all take and no give. We have to incentivise these users and not demonize them which is a recurring theme in this thread.

Now, lets remember, you're the one who started using emotive terms such as "incredibly inconsiderate"...

Let's get this right -- it's "incredibly inconsiderate" to make priority and space for the tens of thousands of people who will be using the current and newly diverted buses on the quays plus Luas Cross City and millions in public transport investment is "all take and no give".

Right...

trellheim

FWIW the double bus lane kicks in around Arran St jn with Ormonde Quay not Jervis St as mentioned above


As for the other posters above can we please recognize the nuances here, its falling into the usual "but motorists" and "but public transport/cyclists" echo chambers

There were some interesting posts earlier in the year about the closing of the ways forcing a dropoff of its own course , and I'd be interested in rational rerouting choices because the LUAS is also closing off and restricting those as well ( see Dominic St/Bolton St junctions ) as the free-flowing nature and this line being a hell of a lot more on main roads is very high-impact.

bk

amcalester wrote: »

Someone said further up the thread that private vehicles account for 20% of the traffic on the quays yet will be allocated 33% of the road space.

It is actually much worse then that. Motorists represent less then 10% of all users on the roads in question, yet they previously had 66% of the road space which will now go to a very generous 33%.

On Bachelors Walk the number of people from before the change are:
- Bus - 9440
- Car - 762
- Taxi - 98
- Cyclists - 542

uck51js9zml2yt

bk wrote: »

It is actually much worse then that. Motorists represent less then 10% of all users on the roads in question, yet they previously had 66% of the road space which will now go to a very generous 33%.

On Bachelors Walk the number of people from before the change are:
- Bus - 9440
- Car - 762
- Taxi - 98
- Cyclists - 542

I dont think giving 10% of the width of the road to cars would work !!:D

bk

bk wrote: »

On Bachelors Walk the number of people from before the change are:
- Bus - 9440
- Car - 762
- Taxi - 98
- Cyclists - 542

And to put these numbers in context. As there were previously two car lanes. Cars/Taxis were only carrying 430 people per lane, versus 9440 in the bus lane!!

This means that the bus lane was carrying 22 times as many people as each car lane.

Another aspect to consider. Just a 10% increase in bus capacity (as announced by the NTA last week) would add almost another 944 people to the road. More then car/taxi combined.

I suspect the increase will be quiet a bit more then 10%.

pclive

bk wrote: »

Just a 10% increase in bus capacity (as announced by the NTA last week) would add almost another 944 people to the road. More then car/taxi combined.

I suspect the increase will be quiet a bit more then 10%.

Are they not just transferring the buses from Dublin Bus to the new operator?

bk

pclive wrote: »

Are they not just transferring the buses from Dublin Bus to the new operator?

No, what was announced is an expansion of 10% of city buses.

The new operator gets new buses from the NTA and operates them on the more marginal orbital and local routes, probably with a lot of single deckers. Meanwhile Dublin Bus gets to keep all it's drivers and buses and use them on the busier, higher frequency core radial routes.

In other words over the next 18 months there will be at least 10% extra buses along the quays.

Which is in addition to the 30 extra buses coming online with Dublin Bus in the next few months.

magicbastarder

bk wrote: »

On Bachelors Walk the number of people from before the change are:
- Bus - 9440
- Car - 762
- Taxi - 98
- Cyclists - 542

on the face of it, you can easily make an argument that with that few private motorists using the quays, that few people will be impacted.

my concern though would be that the same or similar number of private motorists would still head for the quays and block up the approach routes.

bk

magicbastarder wrote: »

on the face of it, you can easily make an argument that with that few private motorists using the quays, that few people will be impacted.

my concern though would be that the same or similar number of private motorists would still head for the quays and block up the approach routes.

That isn't really the experience from similar projects abroad or even here in Dublin (e.g. Graffton St, O'Connell St, etc.).

There will obviously be a couple of weeks adjustment that maybe difficult. But if motorists are sitting there in traffic for ever on approach routes, watching buses wizz by, they eventually get a clue and look for an alternative. Maybe becoming one of those 944 extra bus passengers, etc.

Either way, 305 displaced cars per hour wouldn't be a major concern in the greater scheme of things.

magicbastarder

it's also interesting that the quays - well, bachelor's walk to be specific - which are considered one of the least cycle friendly routes in dublin, can still carry greater that 2/3 what private cars carry, and that's with two lanes for private cars.

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

FWIW the double bus lane kicks in around Arran St jn with Ormonde Quay not Jervis St as mentioned above


As for the other posters above can we please recognize the nuances here, its falling into the usual "but motorists" and "but public transport/cyclists" echo chambers

There were some interesting posts earlier in the year about the closing of the ways forcing a dropoff of its own course , and I'd be interested in rational rerouting choices because the LUAS is also closing off and restricting those as well ( see Dominic St/Bolton St junctions ) as the free-flowing nature and this line being a hell of a lot more on main roads is very high-impact.

At the risk of repeating myself, no it doesn't.

The traffic lane for Jervis St moves inside the bus lane at that point.

You will have between Arran St and Jervis St:

* The inside lane as a general traffic lane for turning left into Jervis St
* The middle lane as a bus lane
* The outside lane as a general traffic lane along the Quays

The double bus lane only starts after Jervis St

Go and look at the map drawings linked to in the post I linked to above and you will clearly see what is happening.