Dublin North Quays - now double bus lane

monument

IE 222 wrote: »

Fully understand that but they need to careful not to reroute buses were there nearly bypassing the city centre otherwise numbers will drop a bit.

The official definition of the city centre is the area between the canals, and every definition I've ever seen of the core city centre includes the core quays.

When it comes to individuals, some people see the north side as the main city centre and others see around College Green as the core city centre, and yet again others see St Stephens Green as the centre. I know southsiders who see the northside as a no-go area as if it was a war zones, and I know northsiders who mainly stick to the northside to shop because they have everything they want on and around Henry Street.

All I'm saying is there's a difference of opinion of where the centre is and where routes should serve the most.

Maybe also that all routes can't serve everywhere.

bobbyss

LXFlyer wrote:

The original report on the diversion of bus routes.

Where specifically ? Which report? Can't find anything anywhere.

LXFlyer

bobbyss wrote: »

Where specifically ? Which report? Can't find anything anywhere.

I'm not going to start googling for you - it is in the original DCC report.

All bus routes on the Quays will have a single stop between Capel St bridge and O'Connell Bridge - the actual physical stop detail of which route would serve which stop wasn't included but indicative plans shown.

There is going to have to be stops for all routes there to facilitate interchange.

monument

I think it's this report: https://www.dublincity.ie/councilmeetings/documents/s10695/North%20and%20South%20Quays%20Traffic%20Management%20measures%20-%20report%20on%20non-statutory%20consultation.pdf

IE 222

monument wrote: »

The official definition of the city centre is the area between the canals, and every definition I've ever seen of the core city centre includes the core quays.

When it comes to individuals, some people see the north side as the main city centre and others see around College Green as the core city centre, and yet again others see St Stephens Green as the centre. I know southsiders who see the northside as a no-go area as if it was a war zones, and I know northsiders who mainly stick to the northside to shop because they have everything they want on and around Henry Street.

All I'm saying is there's a difference of opinion of where the centre is and where routes should serve the most.

Maybe also that all routes can't serve everywhere.

I think your getting into the finer details as obviously this won't affect a person travelling form Rathfarham to Candem st. Most city centre routes will give an option of getting on or off a bus between central bank and o'connell st.

My point is if buses such as the 83 will now travel via Christchurch between Church st. and Georges St. It's removing the main city centre stops which will appear to be bypassing for the many that use the bus to travel to the O'connell bridge area which in fairness would be the majority of user.

Corben Dallas

DOUBLE BUS LANES ON THE QUAYS!!!! WTF!!!!:mad: This has got to be the stupidest idea that DCC has come up with to date.

THERE IS ONLY THREE LANES ON THE QUAYS.... some only two. WE DO NOT HAVE THE ROAD CAPACITY FOR 2 BUS LANES OUT OF THREE.

The government need to fire the bicycle loving traffic planner who came up with this. Sacked Tommorrow.
Then hire someone who can plan FOR ALL ROAD USERS.

Why would anyone bother going into city centre anymore, this is going to kill shopping in Dublin City Centre. The Suburban SC's must be laughing like drains at this stupid move.

**Also " the extra lane allows bus drivers to pull out and overtake other buses at bus stops" If you cant overtake another bus then you dont have the ability to drive a bus.... most would sit behind the other buses and travel in groups giving a poor service to DB passengers.

IE 222

LXFlyer wrote: »

They will have no choice - the physical presence of a tram every 3 mins at peak in both directions means that bus routes will have to be re-routed.

Some will share space with LUAS, others will go via the Quays and others elsewhere.

Changes will have to start happening once full testing starts.

Where each individual route ends up will involve some trial and error, but for me the fundamental issue revolves around routes 9, 16 and 122 northbound. Neither of the current proposals are in any way acceptable and a return to the drawing board is needed.

Personally i would put a bidirectial bus lane in between Wood quay and Burgh quay and make Gratton bridge, Parliment street bus only for North bound and Fishamble st. for southbound services, I know it not ideal but it will be free of congestion.

Along with that id remove the footpaths and parking along the river wall on Inns and Ormand quay and replace with a double bus lane using a path to separate from private traffic which can cater for bus stops up to Gratton bridge. North quays between Eden and Fr. Mathew bridge can be giving over to bidirectional public roads.

PhilipsR

Corben Dallas wrote: »

DOUBLE BUS LANES ON THE QUAYS!!!! WTF!!!!:mad: This has got to be the stupidest idea that DCC has come up with to date.

THERE IS ONLY THREE LANES ON THE QUAYS.... some only two. WE DO NOT HAVE THE ROAD CAPACITY FOR 2 BUS LANES OUT OF THREE.

The government need to fire the bicycle loving traffic planner who came up with this. Sacked Tommorrow.
Then hire someone who can plan FOR ALL ROAD USERS.

Why would anyone bother going into city centre anymore, this is going to kill shopping in Dublin City Centre. The Suburban SC's must be laughing like drains at this stupid move.

**Also " the extra lane allows bus drivers to pull out and overtake other buses at bus stops" If you cant overtake another bus then you dont have the ability to drive a bus.... most would sit behind the other buses and travel in groups giving a poor service to DB passengers.

This is so misinformed I can't even be arsed. I'm just going to say two words. You're wrong.

LXFlyer

Corben Dallas wrote: »

DOUBLE BUS LANES ON THE QUAYS!!!! WTF!!!!:mad: This has got to be the stupidest idea that DCC has come up with to date.

THERE IS ONLY THREE LANES ON THE QUAYS.... some only two. WE DO NOT HAVE THE ROAD CAPACITY FOR 2 BUS LANES OUT OF THREE.

The government need to fire the bicycle loving traffic planner who came up with this. Sacked Tommorrow.
Then hire someone who can plan FOR ALL ROAD USERS.

Why would anyone bother going into city centre anymore, this is going to kill shopping in Dublin City Centre. The Suburban SC's must be laughing like drains at this stupid move.

**Also " the extra lane allows bus drivers to pull out and overtake other buses at bus stops" If you cant overtake another bus then you dont have the ability to drive a bus.... most would sit behind the other buses and travel in groups giving a poor service to DB passengers.

Ok - perhaps stop and think about this for a minute.

1) There are going to be trams crossing the Quays in both directions at a frequency of up to every three minutes. Can you not see that this changes the whole dynamics of traffic in the city?

2) The overtaking element is relevant as at present Bachelors Walk is the worst location for delays on the Dublin Bus network. If a bus is stopped at the bus stop all the buses behind it are stuck too as none of them can pass it as the traffic lanes outside it are full of cars. Providing the extra lane means that buses can keep moving instead of being stuck. There will be approximately 175 buses an hour at peak times in both directions on the Quays between Capel St and O'Connell Street bridges.

3) With the proposed closure of College Green how exactly do you think the Quays are going to cope with a large increase in buses in both directions without putting in extra bus priority measures - the city and regional bus network will grind to a standstill otherwise

The plain facts are that the LUAS Cross-City line changes everything in the city centre and I'm going to say that I suspect that it will very quickly become apparent that (practically speaking) these plans probably don't go far enough. I just don't see how through private car traffic is going to be sustainable along the Quays with the volume of trams crossing them and the increased volumes of buses using them.

Presumably though you have examined this in detail and can tell us all how it can work without putting the extra bus priority in place?

monument

Corben Dallas wrote: »

DOUBLE BUS LANES ON THE QUAYS!!!! WTF!!!!:mad: This has got to be the stupidest idea that DCC has come up with to date.

THERE IS ONLY THREE LANES ON THE QUAYS.... some only two. WE DO NOT HAVE THE ROAD CAPACITY FOR 2 BUS LANES OUT OF THREE.

The government need to fire the bicycle loving traffic planner who came up with this. Sacked Tommorrow.
Then hire someone who can plan FOR ALL ROAD USERS.

Why would anyone bother going into city centre anymore, this is going to kill shopping in Dublin City Centre. The Suburban SC's must be laughing like drains at this stupid move.

**Also " the extra lane allows bus drivers to pull out and overtake other buses at bus stops" If you cant overtake another bus then you dont have the ability to drive a bus.... most would sit behind the other buses and travel in groups giving a poor service to DB passengers.

• 1970s -- pedestrianisation of Grafton St is going to kill city centre business
• 1980s and 1990s -- bus lanes are going to kill city centre business
• 1990s and 2000s -- Luas construction is going to kill city centre business
• Late 2000s -- College Green bus gate is going to kill city centre business
• 2010s -- Luas Cross City is going to kill city centre business
• Mid to late 2010s -- Double bus lanes and cycle routes are going to kill city centre business

magicbastarder

Corben Dallas wrote: »

The government need to fire the bicycle loving traffic planner who came up with this.

i'm not going to bother with the rest of the post, just pulled this quote out as it's worth a chuckle.

bobbyss

monument wrote:

I think it's this report:

Excellent. Thanks a lot.

LXFlyer

bobbyss wrote: »

Where specifically ? Which report? Can't find anything anywhere.

The whole point of the second bus lane is that there will be far more stops between Capel St Bridge and O'Connell St Bridge (on both sides of the river) and without it the bus service would become one long queue and nothing moving as buses serve their respective bus stops.

Some routes will be stopping west of the Ha'penny bridge which will mean a longish walk to O'Connell Bridge - that's unavoidable given the proposed volumes of buses involved.

trellheim

Although I kind of get it, I can't see how it'll work.

When do the routes like 46a etc go back to their old northbound college green routes ( obvs avoiding suffolk st or am I missing something ) ?


it reeks of "sure slam it in there and we'll have to design the rest of the centre of the city's circulation around a 3 min tram service", there's just no other option.

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

Although I kind of get it, I can't see how it'll work.

When do the routes like 46a etc go back to their old northbound college green routes ( obvs avoiding suffolk st or am I missing something ) ?


it reeks of "sure slam it in there and we'll have to design the rest of the centre of the city's circulation around a 3 min tram service", there's just no other option.

They will share Dawson St, Nassau St, Grafton St and College Green with LUAS. I suspect only the 11, 14, 15, 38/a, 46a and 140 will do this. They should be manageable.

Other routes will retain the current route via Westland Row & Pearse St - I suspect some southbound routes may have to use Townsend St & Westland Row.

There is going to be some trial & error with this inevitably.

donvito99

Corben Dallas wrote: »

Then hire someone who can plan FOR ALL ROAD USERS

Translated as "hire someone who can plan for ME IN MY CAR. MOAR LANES."

magicbastarder

Corben Dallas wrote: »

THERE IS ONLY THREE LANES ON THE QUAYS.... some only two. WE DO NOT HAVE THE ROAD CAPACITY FOR 2 BUS LANES OUT OF THREE.

actually, this is a fundamental question. please explain why, when we have this limited capacity, that the lane count should favour cars?

amcalester

magicbastarder wrote: »

actually, this is a fundamental question. please explain why, when we have this limited capacity, that the lane count should favour cars?

Because HE prefers to drive.

AlekSmart

LXFlyer wrote: »

They will share Dawson St, Nassau St, Grafton St and College Green with LUAS. I suspect only the 11, 14, 15, 38/a, 46a and 140 will do this. They should be manageable.

Other routes will retain the current route via Westland Row & Pearse St - I suspect some southbound routes may have to use Townsend St & Westland Row.

There is going to be some trial & error with this inevitably.

If the Authorities do not address the Taxi issue,then this Trial & Error phase will simply feature the latter element.

The Taxi is NOT high capacity,scheduled Public Transport,it is a Small Public Service Vehicle available for private hire.Once hired by a single person,it now has exactly the same status as the Bus containing 80+ persons.

Dublin is already struggling with the amount of compromises now being put forward,in an attempt to fix now,what should have been fixed long BEFORE Luas BXD began construction.

Just as today,when a single member of the Taxi fraternity managed to frustrate all Bus Access to the 1st Westmoreland Street Bus-Stop,if this isn't addressed,the Taxi gang will continue with their time honoured and well trodden anti-social ways.

Attempting to put some form of order on several thousand,sole trading,self employed individuals,without involving a significant amount of Garda resources is never going to succeed....so...is there a Plan B ?

ED E

AlekSmart wrote: »

...so...is there a Plan B ?

Wholeheartedly agree. We had(have?) more taxis than NY, a city 8x as large.

Plan B should be a regulator with a hardon for rule abidance that just recalls any plates that are misbehaving like they all do. Use that to cull them back down to 7 or 8k.

LollipopJimmy

I cycled it this evening. In its current state it's lethal.
There were also 3 private coaches parked along the stretch, adding to the mayhem. Today was a good test with Cork and Waterford fans heading to croke park and for me it failed, buses and taxis weaving everywhere.
This obviously needed to be done but the illegal parking of private buses on this quay needs to be addressed. I also got ran into by a deliveroo **** when I stopped at the red but that's for another day

LXFlyer

AlekSmart wrote: »

If the Authorities do not address the Taxi issue,then this Trial & Error phase will simply feature the latter element.

The Taxi is NOT high capacity,scheduled Public Transport,it is a Small Public Service Vehicle available for private hire.Once hired by a single person,it now has exactly the same status as the Bus containing 80+ persons.

Dublin is already struggling with the amount of compromises now being put forward,in an attempt to fix now,what should have been fixed long BEFORE Luas BXD began construction.

Just as today,when a single member of the Taxi fraternity managed to frustrate all Bus Access to the 1st Westmoreland Street Bus-Stop,if this isn't addressed,the Taxi gang will continue with their time honoured and well trodden anti-social ways.

Attempting to put some form of order on several thousand,sole trading,self employed individuals,without involving a significant amount of Garda resources is never going to succeed....so...is there a Plan B ?

I suspect there is a plan B - it's just not in the public domain yet.

bk

ED E wrote: »

Wholeheartedly agree. We had(have?) more taxis than NY, a city 8x as large.

While I agree completely with everything else you and Alex has said, I just want to point out that the above was never really true.

This stat was only comparing yellow taxi numbers which are the only taxi that operates in Manhatten, which btw is about the same population size as Dublin, though obviously much denser. The stat totally failed to take into account the massive number of black cars that most Ney Yorkers take instead of taxis or the green taxis that operate in the rest of the boroughs outside of Manhattan.

It was always a very poor comparison

daheff

LXFlyer wrote: »

Ok - perhaps stop and think about this for a minute.

1) There are going to be trams crossing the Quays in both directions at a frequency of up to every three minutes. Can you not see that this changes the whole dynamics of traffic in the city?

Yes it does....but it changes dynamics regardless of what you do to the road allocation on the quays.

LXFlyer wrote: »

2) The overtaking element is relevant as at present Bachelors Walk is the worst location for delays on the Dublin Bus network. If a bus is stopped at the bus stop all the buses behind it are stuck too as none of them can pass it as the traffic lanes outside it are full of cars. Providing the extra lane means that buses can keep moving instead of being stuck. There will be approximately 175 buses an hour at peak times in both directions on the Quays between Capel St and O'Connell Street bridges.

Maybe Dublin bus should change where it places its stops?

As per another poster, all the excess lane capacity will then be used up by more buses....how will an additional lane (full of buses) allow buses to pull in/out anymore than a lane of cars (remembering bus drivers push their way in/out as they please -from what I see)

LXFlyer wrote: »

The plain facts are that the LUAS Cross-City line changes everything in the city centre and I'm going to say that I suspect that it will very quickly become apparent that (practically speaking) these plans probably don't go far enough. I just don't see how through private car traffic is going to be sustainable along the Quays with the volume of trams crossing them and the increased volumes of buses using them.

Presumably though you have examined this in detail and can tell us all how it can work without putting the extra bus priority in place?

Luas cross city will show how badly this has all been planned. All well and good for those on the luas lines, but not so good for those who commute by bus or car. I'm not so sure I see where the extra bus priority solves the problems you mention??

monument wrote: »

1990s and 2000s -- Luas construction is going to kill city centre business
Late 2000s -- College Green bus gate is going to kill city centre business

go take a look at Middle Abbey street pre luas time. It was a bustling street. Lots of footfall. DB had buses there which brought business. Now look at it. Its full of closed buildings. College green is going the same way.

AlekSmart wrote: »

If the Authorities do not address the Taxi issue,then this Trial & Error phase will simply feature the latter element.

The Taxi is NOT high capacity,scheduled Public Transport,it is a Small Public Service Vehicle available for private hire.Once hired by a single person,it now has exactly the same status as the Bus containing 80+ persons.

This point proves that Dublin road planners are anti-car. The whole rhetoric about adding capacity vs road car users is a mute point when they allow taxis the same privileges as cars.

mullyboyee

Two poles gone up on either side of the right hand side lane this morning.

Anyone know what the story is there?

StreetLight

mullyboyee wrote: »

Two poles gone up on either side of the right hand side lane this morning.

Anyone know what the story is there?

Traffic lights to hold cars back as buses cross over to O'Connell Bridge.

monument

daheff wrote: »

Maybe Dublin bus should change where it places its stops?

The new stops on the quays are replacing stops from Dame Street to Westmorland Street.... where else exactly do you think all of those stops will fit?

And maybe more to the point, why do you think the small amount of people in cars are more important than thousents of people in buses?

daheff wrote: »

As per another poster, all the excess lane capacity will then be used up by more buses....how will an additional lane (full of buses) allow buses to pull in/out anymore than a lane of cars (remembering bus drivers push their way in/out as they please -from what I see)

One lane will be for buses to park and the other lane for buses to move and it seems buses will also have traffic light priory before O'Connell Bridge.

daheff wrote: »

Luas cross city will show how badly this has all been planned. All well and good for those on the luas lines, but not so good for those who commute by bus or car. I'm not so sure I see where the extra bus priority solves the problems you mention??

The original plan was remove cars past Jervis Street and they may still have to look at putting that plan in place.

daheff wrote: »

go take a look at Middle Abbey street pre luas time. It was a bustling street. Lots of footfall. DB had buses there which brought business. Now look at it. Its full of closed buildings. College green is going the same way.

Buildings on College Green and that end of Dame Street have been sold for very high price tags and are attracting high rents and high-profile businesses. All with your the knowledge of Luas and the plaza coming.

And what are you talking about on Middle Abbey Street? It still has massive footfall and most of anything that looks empty is part of larger building or stalled redevelopment plans.

daheff wrote: »

This point proves that Dublin road planners are anti-car. The whole rhetoric about adding capacity vs road car users is a mute point when they allow taxis the same privileges as cars.

I'm not sure if you get this but national and local policy is clear that the car comes after all other modes of transport.

NuMarvel

I drove along the quays yesterday and one thing that struck me is the lack of signage giving people advance notice about the changes, especially the removal of the right hand turn onto O'Connell Street for private traffic.

Maybe the council will address it later this week, but I would have thought that a week beforehand, there would have been something up to say there were going to be lane changes from next Sunday.

PhilipsR

If the Guards bothered to actually enforce the rules of the road around the city centre a lot of this hassle would instantly but fixed. They literally do not give a crap about the traffic aspect within the main city centre area and it's beyond a farce.

devnull

Taxis have been a problem for many many years though and part of that problem in my experience is related to the Garda who are far too lennient with them, what is need is a more zero tolerance style approach with taxi drivers and if they break the rules they pay the price, thing is a taxi driver told me the drivers never stick to the rules since there was no risk of them being punished.

I've seen it with my own eyes, Garda goes over to the taxi, tell them he's not allowed to be/park/whatever there and he should move on, same taxi goes slightly up the road or out of view of the Garda and does the same thing again and on occasion on evenings when I've been working late I've seen the same taxis doing exactly the same and the police tell them to move on again.

It's about time there's less of this hands off policing of traffic and more of an approach where if you break the rules you pay the price, whilst there is no prospect of being punished no taxi driver is going to bother listening to the rules.