Dublin North Quays - now double bus lane

brokenarms

How are they going to manage the single lane onto dame st from Trinity?
Double bus lanes and so on mean nothing if its going to bottle neck up the line.

Even in non rush hour its already a mess with traffic cutting in from the Pierce street bus gate, Hawkins street and Dolier street.

Traffic cant get across the road to Westmoorland from the bus gate without being pushing hard into the queing traffic. Stress rising moment!! As taxis block all sides while trying to que skip . DCC could at least put a yellow box junction in front of the gate. Or let cycles use the tram line.

Taxis are the big problem here already , but adding a tram is going to be grid lock and a disaster for anyone catching a bus after on or after Dame street or Nassau street ..

devnull

brokenarms wrote: »

How are they going to manage the single lane onto dame st from Trinity?
Double bus lanes and so on mean nothing if its going to bottle neck up the line.

Even in non rush hour its already a mess with traffic cutting in from the Pierce street bus gate, Hawkins street and Dolier street.

Traffic cant get across the road to Westmoorland from the bus gate without being pushing hard into the queing traffic. Stress rising moment!! As taxis block all sides while trying to que skip . DCC could at least put a yellow box junction in front of the gate. Or let cycles use the tram line.

Taxis are the big problem here already , but adding a tram is going to be grid lock and a disaster for anyone on the catching a bus after on or after Dame street or Nassau street ..

Similar to what I was saying about taxis, anyone who breaks the rules of the road needs to face stiff punishment, too many people are allowed to get away with offences and just being told not to do it again and whilst that is still the case they will carry on doing it.

It's a well known fact that the decision to take a risk is based on the chances of getting caught and how severe the punishment might be if they are caught, right now the benefit of taking the risk is far higher than the chance of getting caught and subsequent punishment so whilst that is still the case it will still happen.

Ciaran_B

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

I cycled it this evening. In its current state it's lethal.
There were also 3 private coaches parked along the stretch, adding to the mayhem. Today was a good test with Cork and Waterford fans heading to croke park and for me it failed, buses and taxis weaving everywhere.
This obviously needed to be done but the illegal parking of private buses on this quay needs to be addressed. I also got ran into by a deliveroo **** when I stopped at the red but that's for another day

I cycled it this morning and had the opposite experience. I felt a lot safer and it seemed like there was a lot more space. I also noticed cars turning left for Jervis St. weren't cutting into the bus lane immediately after Capel St so there was a bit more time to take the lane.

There seemed to be a traffic island under construction at the cafe before the Arlington Hotel that I got stuck at. Anyone how what that's about.

Totally agree with the point about private buses. The usual suspects in the usual places this morning - Game of Thrones bus etc.

LollipopJimmy

Ciaran_B wrote: »

I cycled it this morning and had the opposite experience. I felt a lot safer and it seemed like there was a lot more space. I also noticed cars turning left for Jervis St. weren't cutting into the bus lane immediately after Capel St so there was a bit more time to take the lane.

There seemed to be a traffic island under construction at the cafe before the Arlington Hotel that I got stuck at. Anyone how what that's about.

Totally agree with the point about private buses. The usual suspects in the usual places this morning - Game of Thrones bus etc.

Glad to hear you had a good experience anyway.

I'll be going that way this evening and hopefully it'll be better than it was yesterday. Hopefully it was just the 'up for the day' crowd causing issues (Joke!)

TallGlass

Ciaran_B wrote: »

There seemed to be a traffic island under construction at the cafe before the Arlington Hotel that I got stuck at. Anyone how what that's about.

Bus gate maybe? I was thinking the same at what it could be.

brokenarms

devnull wrote: »

Similar to what I was saying about taxis, anyone who breaks the rules of the road needs to face stiff punishment, too many people are allowed to get away with offences and just being told not to do it again and whilst that is still the case they will carry on doing it.

It's a well known fact that the decision to take a risk is based on the chances of getting caught and how severe the punishment might be if they are caught, right now the benefit of taking the risk is far higher than the chance of getting caught and subsequent punishment so whilst that is still the case it will still happen.

At present the Garda will not do anything. They already have to much to look out for in fairness.
What we need in my opinion is a dedicated crew of special police to work on traffic control in the city centre. With a big thick ticket book in their hands. With powers only to work in traffic. And not just for a honeymoon period . Permanent

devnull

brokenarms wrote: »

At present the Garda will not do anything. They already have to much to look out for in fairness.
What we need in my opinion is a dedicated crew of special police to work on traffic control in the city centre. With a big thick ticket book in their hands. With powers only to work in traffic.

I agree that they are over-worked and we need a dedictated transport and traffic police more than anything to resolve these things, however at the same time when I've complained about this to the Garda in the past they say they have that and that is what the Traffic Corps are for and they are.

NuMarvel

Ciaran_B wrote: »

There seemed to be a traffic island under construction at the cafe before the Arlington Hotel that I got stuck at. Anyone how what that's about.

Traffic lights to allow buses in the left hand lanes get into the right hand lane for turning right onto O'Connell Bridge.

brokenarms

devnull wrote: »

I agree that they are over-worked and we need a dedictated transport and traffic police more than anything to resolve these things, however at the same time when I've complained about this to the Garda in the past they say they have that and that is what the Traffic Corps are for and they are.

:pac::pac: You just made me spit out my lunch laughing ..

devnull

NuMarvel wrote: »

Traffic lights to allow buses in the left hand lanes get into the right hand lane for turning right onto O'Connell Bridge.

Well that is going to be a lot of fun....:(

LollipopJimmy

devnull wrote: »

I agree that they are over-worked and we need a dedictated transport and traffic police more than anything to resolve these things, however at the same time when I've complained about this to the Garda in the past they say they have that and that is what the Traffic Corps are for and they are.

Traffic Corps don't spend massive amounts of time in the City. They need guys on foot. Cars in loading bays, taxis just sitting and stopping anywhere. In the City you are never more than a few minutes walk to a taxi rank, maybe inside a specific boundary we need to look at taxis only being able to pick up at ranks or by prior booking. Taxis and rickshaws are an absolute scourge on the city centre at the moment with the driver behavior on display.

Seaswimmer

NuMarvel wrote: »

Traffic lights to allow buses in the left hand lanes get into the right hand lane for turning right onto O'Connell Bridge.

Well I suppose in theory it makes it "very difficult" for cars who still want to ignore the "No Right Turn" at O'Connell bridge. no quickly nipping across the bus lane!!

devnull

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

Traffic Corps don't spend massive amounts of time in the City. They need guys on foot. Cars in loading bays, taxis just sitting and stopping anywhere. In the City you are never more than a few minutes walk to a taxi rank, maybe inside a specific boundary we need to look at taxis only being able to pick up at ranks or by prior booking. Taxis and rickshaws are an absolute scourge on the city centre at the moment with the driver behavior on display.

Don't shoot the messenger!

But I totally agree with you that we need to clamp down on these kind of things and people on foot and a dedicated group are exactly what we need but I cannot see us getting this anytime soon sadly, even if the opening of a consultation on rickshaws is a positive step forward.

LollipopJimmy

devnull wrote: »

Don't shoot the messenger!

But I totally agree with you that we need to clamp down on these kind of things and people on foot and a dedicated group are exactly what we need but I cannot see us getting this anytime soon sadly, even if the opening of a consultation on rickshaws is a positive step forward.

Sorry I wasn't having a pop at you!

bk

brokenarms wrote: »

At present the Garda will not do anything. They already have to much to look out for in fairness.
What we need in my opinion is a dedicated crew of special police to work on traffic control in the city centre. With a big thick ticket book in their hands. With powers only to work in traffic. And not just for a honeymoon period . Permanent

Many cities around the world have a dedicated city police, separate from the national or federal police. They mostly just give out parking tickets, direct traffic and fine this carry on.

I wonder if we could do with such a force in the city center, rather then bother the Gardai with it.

I know what people will say, traffic wardens, but at the moment there are just too few and their powers don't seem to extend to directing traffic and penalising taxi's etc. perhaps it should.

Other option is a full transport police service. Same powers as Gardai, but dedicated to patrolling public transport, Luas, DART, train stations, tram stops and bus lanes like these.

Of course some dedicated red light style automated cameras handing out penalty points would change tunes very quickly too, at least for cars sneaking into bus lanes/gates. But wouldn't help with Taxi's, at least not until they are also banned from bus lanes.

Avada

bk wrote: »

Many cities around the world have a dedicated city police, separate from the national or federal police. They mostly just give out parking tickets, direct traffic and fine this carry on.

I wonder if we could do with such a force in the city center, rather then bother the Gardai with it.

I know what people will say, traffic wardens, but at the moment there are just too few and their powers don't seem to extend to directing traffic and penalising taxi's etc. perhaps it should.

Other option is a full transport police service. Same powers as Gardai, but dedicated to patrolling public transport, Luas, DART, train stations, tram stops and bus lanes like these.

Of course some dedicated red light style automated cameras handing out penalty points would change tunes very quickly too, at least for cars sneaking into bus lanes/gates. But wouldn't help with Taxi's, at least not until they are also banned from bus lanes.

There are automated systems in existence which can capture the licence plates of vehicles illegally stopped in clearways, etc which could also be brought in to stop the bus parking, taxi issue.

brokenarms

Avada wrote: »

There are automated systems in existence which can capture the licence plates of vehicles illegally stopped in clearways, etc which could also be brought in to stop the bus parking, taxi issue.

Not to far away either.
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/enforcement-bus-lanes-and-bus-only-streets

And taking over 100k sterling a week in fines.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/bus-lane-fines-hit-115000-after-just-one-week-in-operation-31351037.html

imagine how those monies could help with the drug, alcohol and homeless problems in Dublin city centre.

cherryghost

daheff wrote: »

This point proves that Dublin road planners are anti-car. The whole rhetoric about adding capacity vs road car users is a mute point when they allow taxis the same privileges as cars.

Of course they are anti-car, thats the whole effing point of Cross City and doubling up lanes. The current structure is not sustainable and it definitely wont be sustainable a few months down the line. So some changes are needed (though I feel it'll be more changes needed).

But doesnt doubling up bus lanes on the quays just cause a funnel of traffic further up the line (unless car owners suddenly completely ditch their commutes along it because of said changes)?

trellheim

But doesnt doubling up bus lanes on the quays just cause a funnel of traffic further up the line (unless car owners suddenly completely ditch their commutes along it because of said changes)?

Yes indeed , Ormonde Quay a nightmare atm, wanted to drop off on Jervis st, the doubling of the buslane should really start further in as Jervis St and Grattan bridge are the main exit points for Private traffic wanting to get out from this.


There is a real lack of signage. The outer rim signage is talking about it and there is one signboard at capel st.

LXFlyer

Ormond Quay is going to be a complete mess.

Traffic for Jervis St will have to weave across to get inside the bus lane before Capel St Bridge and from the drawings there is no plan for a proper signalled bus gate at that point.

All of the buses that come from Thomas St and The Coombe are (in due course) to be re-routed along Winetavern St and the North Quays yet no additional bus priority measures will be in place on Ormond Quay Upper before Capel St Bridge despite the large increase in bus numbers.

LXFlyer

brokenarms wrote: »

How are they going to manage the single lane onto dame st from Trinity?
Double bus lanes and so on mean nothing if its going to bottle neck up the line.

Even in non rush hour its already a mess with traffic cutting in from the Pierce street bus gate, Hawkins street and Dolier street.

Traffic cant get across the road to Westmoorland from the bus gate without being pushing hard into the queing traffic. Stress rising moment!! As taxis block all sides while trying to que skip . DCC could at least put a yellow box junction in front of the gate. Or let cycles use the tram line.

Taxis are the big problem here already , but adding a tram is going to be grid lock and a disaster for anyone catching a bus after on or after Dame street or Nassau street ..

That will be public transport only.

When the LUAS starts I can see some bus routes having to divert via Townsend St and Westland Row.

A contra-flow bus lane on South Leinster St would allow them access Kildare St.

TallGlass

Private cars will have to pay a fee to enter town or at least The Quays, I would hazard a guess in the next 12 months.

Having cars and buses interact that way will cause an accident, car drivers can't stop hitting into the Luas and that's on rails.

LXFlyer

daheff wrote: »

Yes it does....but it changes dynamics regardless of what you do to the road allocation on the quays.

Maybe Dublin bus should change where it places its stops?

As per another poster, all the excess lane capacity will then be used up by more buses....how will an additional lane (full of buses) allow buses to pull in/out anymore than a lane of cars (remembering bus drivers push their way in/out as they please -from what I see)




Luas cross city will show how badly this has all been planned. All well and good for those on the luas lines, but not so good for those who commute by bus or car. I'm not so sure I see where the extra bus priority solves the problems you mention??


go take a look at Middle Abbey street pre luas time. It was a bustling street. Lots of footfall. DB had buses there which brought business. Now look at it. Its full of closed buildings. College green is going the same way.

This point proves that Dublin road planners are anti-car. The whole rhetoric about adding capacity vs road car users is a mute point when they allow taxis the same privileges as cars.

I'm no happier about the route that the LUAS takes through the city centre than you are due to the negative impact on the bus service, but it's there now and we have to deal with that.

The plain fact is that there won't be enough time and space to allow all the buses (and the ones diverted in time from College Green) get across the LUAS line at O'Connell Bridge and to maintain existing traffic flows there.

It will be physically impossible - personally I suspect that there will have to be more mitigating measures in due course as I cannot see how all the flows currently planned will successfully interact.

With regard to the double bus lane, the inside lane will facilitate buses pulling in and out of stops - it will effectively be a long series of bus stops. The outside bus lane will facilitate buses to keep moving along the Quays without having to go into the general traffic lane as at present when they move out from a stop or need to pass another bus at a stop.

The traffic signalled bus gate will now allow buses a clear move to the right hand lane just before O'Connell Bridge.

As for moving stops - the fact is that there are a huge number of bus routes coming down the Quays and they all need a stop around O'Connell Bridge as that's where most people get off them.

I have no particular gripe about private cars, but I can stand back from this and see that with the trams running the status quo just simply won't work.

College Green is a major pedestrian north-south through route - that's a big difference with Middle Abbey St - that's like comparing chalk and cheese.

brokenarms

LXFlyer wrote: »

That will be public transport only.

When the LUAS starts I can see some bus routes having to divert via Townsend St and Westland Row.

A contra-flow bus lane on South Leinster St would allow them access Kildare St.

It is already though. Not many private cars bother going into collage green even off peak.

If they stop the taxi going up, there will be war on the streets with the The taxi drivers unions.

LXFlyer

brokenarms wrote: »

It is already though. Not many private cars bother going into collage green even off peak.

If they stop the taxi going up, there will be war on the streets with the The taxi drivers unions.

I don't think we are even close to final plans for the area - I suspect that there will be more changes coming down the line to deal with the impact of the trams.

TallGlass

brokenarms wrote: »

It is already though. Not many private cars bother going into collage green even off peak.

If they stop the taxi going up, there will be war on the streets with the The taxi drivers unions.

It would suit the Taxi Drivers, well the ones who are interested in gouging customers out of money anyway, simple 5 min job turns into a 20 and the €€€s are flowing.

monument

cherryghost wrote: »

But doesnt doubling up bus lanes on the quays just cause a funnel of traffic further up the line (unless car owners suddenly completely ditch their commutes along it because of said changes)?

It's already the trend for Dublin and Luas works has already lowered the volumes of cars on the quays.

The volume of cars on the quays per hour isn't really huge, so, people switching from car to using other routes by car or to public transport or walking and cycling or a mix of those.

daheff

LXFlyer wrote: »

The plain fact is that there won't be enough time and space to allow all the buses (and the ones diverted in time from College Green) get across the LUAS line at O'Connell Bridge and to maintain existing traffic flows there.

Agreed.

LXFlyer wrote: »

With regard to the double bus lane, the inside lane will facilitate buses pulling in and out of stops - it will effectively be a long series of bus stops. The outside bus lane will facilitate buses to keep moving along the Quays without having to go into the general traffic lane as at present when they move out from a stop or need to pass another bus at a stop.

so basically theres a bus stop lane and a bus moving lane. Hardly adding the extra capacity others here are claiming???

LXFlyer wrote: »

As for moving stops - the fact is that there are a huge number of bus routes coming down the Quays and they all need a stop around O'Connell Bridge as that's where most people get off them.

I understand people want to get off in the city centre. But space dictates that if you try this you have what we currently have...all the buses trying to stop in the same place. You try to add more buses to this lot and i guarantee it'll be an even bigger mess. The only logical thing is to stagger the stops so they aren't all on bachelors walk.

LXFlyer wrote: »

I have no particular gripe about private cars, but I can stand back from this and see that with the trams running the status quo just simply won't work.

I don't have a pro or anti car bias either. My point is that people simply don't understand that our commuting system is far from ideal for people vs where they live. If commuters have any option to get in a car its usually their best or only option. Forcing cars into smaller spaces doesn't solve this problem. More frequent and wider ranging commuting options does this. there is obviously a cost to providing this, but we havent invested in commuting system that much in the last 15 odd years (and i include luas in this).

We need a proper underground. We need orbital routes. We need routes that dont just go to city centre and back again (I know DB has gotten better in this in the last few years- but they can still get better).

Somebody asked where I'd put a tunnel for cars....I'd put it along where the major routes into /across the city are (down the quays and going north/south somewhere between ormond quay and IFSC).

LXFlyer wrote: »

College Green is a major pedestrian north-south through route - that's a big difference with Middle Abbey St - that's like comparing chalk and cheese.

I'm not comparing ...I'm saying theres been a marked decline in Middle Abbey st over the past 10-15 years since Luas came down that street. A lot of shops /cinemas/pubs have closed down there.

bk

daheff wrote: »

I'm not comparing ...I'm saying theres been a marked decline in Middle Abbey st over the past 10-15 years since Luas came down that street. A lot of shops /cinemas/pubs have closed down there.

What?! Abbey Street was well dead before the Luas came to it.

It is starting to pick up quiet a bit now along the line.

However much of the property along it is owned by Arnotts owners and awaiting a massive new shopping center. The shopping center didn't go ahead because of the recession, but it is likely back on now.

LXFlyer

daheff wrote: »

Agreed.



so basically theres a bus stop lane and a bus moving lane. Hardly adding the extra capacity others here are claiming???


I understand people want to get off in the city centre. But space dictates that if you try this you have what we currently have...all the buses trying to stop in the same place. You try to add more buses to this lot and i guarantee it'll be an even bigger mess. The only logical thing is to stagger the stops so they aren't all on bachelors walk.



I don't have a pro or anti car bias either. My point is that people simply don't understand that our commuting system is far from ideal for people vs where they live. If commuters have any option to get in a car its usually their best or only option. Forcing cars into smaller spaces doesn't solve this problem. More frequent and wider ranging commuting options does this. there is obviously a cost to providing this, but we havent invested in commuting system that much in the last 15 odd years (and i include luas in this).

We need a proper underground. We need orbital routes. We need routes that dont just go to city centre and back again (I know DB has gotten better in this in the last few years- but they can still get better).

Somebody asked where I'd put a tunnel for cars....I'd put it along where the major routes into /across the city are (down the quays and going north/south somewhere between ormond quay and IFSC).

I'm not comparing ...I'm saying theres been a marked decline in Middle Abbey st over the past 10-15 years since Luas came down that street. A lot of shops /cinemas/pubs have closed down there.

The improvement offered by the double bus lane is that buses won't immediately be battling with general traffic when they try to pull out from the bus stop as they do right now. At peak times this can mean they don't move.

They will pull out into a dedicated bus lane that will clearly be faster flowing than the current set up and will have a signalled bus gate to allow them pull across to the right hand lane - this will offer buses increased priority than at present.

There aren't really any other options for the stop locations - otherwise the gap between stops becomes way too long. The bus stops will stretch back along Lower Ormond Quay ultimately (when the routes using College Green get diverted) as well as Bachelor's Walk.

We do need the DART Underground, Metro North and more orbital routes, but none of those are going to happen overnight.

In the meantime DCC have to deal with the here and now and the practicalities of that - that's what these traffic measures are attempting to do, but I genuinely think that the use of either sets of Quays as an east/west through route for private cars just simply won't work due to the volume of trams and buses that will be operating.

I personally believe that these measures will have to be re-examined very quickly to deal with that.