Dublin North Quays - now double bus lane

whiskeygirl

Would be awkward for earlys, and some late & night finishes via PT.

bk

To be honest, I wouldn't really worry about how off duty gardai get around. They'd have no problem using the bus lanes off peak as mentioned above.

I worry more about how all those folks working late in bars/clubs/restaurants or shift work, earning minimum wage, without a car and how they get around. It is for those people who we need 24/7 buses for.

brokenarms

bk wrote: »

To be honest, I wouldn't really worry about how off duty gardai get around. They'd have no problem using the bus lanes off peak as mentioned above.

I worry more about how all those folks working late in bars/clubs/restaurants or shift work, earning minimum wage, without a car and how they get around. It is for those people who we need 24/7 buses for.

How many people is that really?

The last bus even now is nearly empty at 11.30 ish each night. Few old men coming home from the pub using the FTP mostly.
I believe keeping a bus service running to serve a few people who may or may not get the bus is not economical. The fairs would not even cover the diesel.

AndrewJRenko

whiskeygirl wrote: »

Would be awkward for earlys, and some late & night finishes via PT.

What times are these starts and finishes?

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

To be honest, I wouldn't really worry about how off duty gardai get around. They'd have no problem using the bus lanes off peak as mentioned above.

I worry more about how all those folks working late in bars/clubs/restaurants or shift work, earning minimum wage, without a car and how they get around. It is for those people who we need 24/7 buses for.

I am not quite sure what night time bus services have to do with these bus priority measures on the Quays???

But what I will say is that at the moment the prime focus in applying new resources needs to be dealing with the deficiencies in the core service - many routes are suffering from overcrowding and insufficient capacity.

Any additional driver and bus resources need to be focussed on that right now - in time night time services should indeed follow, but right now the existing public transport service is creaking at the seams.

Perhaps extending night time services could form part of any expansion of Dublin Bus services after the next round of tendering.

But that's all in the future - the new bus lanes on the Quays will help improve the core service throughout the day (which is what this thread is all about!!).

Padraig Mor

amcalester wrote: »

What percentage of the available road space do you think should be allocated to private motorists?

Someone said further up the thread that private vehicles account for 20% of the traffic on the quays yet will be allocated 33% of the road space.

Seems to me that private motorists are already well taken care of.

I was of the understanding that *no* road space is specifically allocated to private motorists and that the lanes in question are available to, and used by, all forms of traffic. Perhaps I missed some new private car only lanes?

magicbastarder

brokenarms wrote: »

The last bus even now is nearly empty at 11.30 ish each night. Few old men coming home from the pub using the FTP mostly.

just a recent experience - monday night getting the second last 11 home from westmoreland street - i'd guess there were about 15 or 20 people on it. in my experience, the last bus is busier than that i think.

Kaizersoze81

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Don't Garda shifts start and end in public transport hours?

No, they don't. A lot of shifts with 1am and 3am finishes.

amcalester

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I was of the understanding that *no* road space is specifically allocated to private motorists and that the lanes in question are available to, and used by, all forms of traffic. Perhaps I missed some new private car only lanes?

Poor phrasing on my part, but lets flip the argument if it helps you understand the point, though no doubt you will find another semantic argument rather than argue the actual point.

Currently private motorists account for under 10% of people on the quays (stat provided by bk above) yet are only precluded from using 66.66% of the available road space leaving them 33.33% which admittedly they will have to share with other road users.

BonnieSituation

brokenarms wrote: »

How many people is that really?

The last bus even now is nearly empty at 11.30 ish each night. Few old men coming home from the pub using the FTP mostly.
I believe keeping a bus service running to serve a few people who may or may not get the bus is not economical. The fairs would not even cover the diesel.

Which last bus is this?

The 25A and 25B is practically full every night. I'm sure this scenario is repeated all over Dublin on other high frequency routes.

Padraig Mor

amcalester wrote: »

Poor phrasing on my part, but lets flip the argument if it helps you understand the point, though no doubt you will find another semantic argument rather than argue the actual point.

Not just on your part - multiple anti-motorist posters here have referred to private motorists being "given" / "allocated" etc a portion of the available roadspace, when this is simply not the case - motorists share this portion of the road with all other road users.

And where have I 'argued the point'? I have made no comment on the allocation of lanes per se, merely responded to your question (which in itself did not address my own point).

L1011

brokenarms wrote: »

How many people is that really?

The last bus even now is nearly empty at 11.30 ish each night. Few old men coming home from the pub using the FTP mostly.
I believe keeping a bus service running to serve a few people who may or may not get the bus is not economical. The fairs would not even cover the diesel.

Where?

Last buses to all destinations west of the city are standing room on leaving. The ending time is at least 90 minutes early of when demand would tail off and has been for years.

thomasj

brokenarms wrote:

The last bus even now is nearly empty at 11.30 ish each night. Few old men coming home from the pub using the FTP mostly. I believe keeping a bus service running to serve a few people who may or may not get the bus is not economical. The fairs would not even cover the diesel.

Youre obviously not talking about the 39 or 39A

While it's not as bad as 2 or 3 hours ago where you can't get on the bus at times, bus is certainly no where near empty if anything it's closer to full.

amcalester

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Not just on your part - multiple anti-motorist posters here have referred to private motorists being "given" / "allocated" etc a portion of the available roadspace, when this is simply not the case - motorists share this portion of the road with all other road users.

And where have I 'argued the point'? I have made no comment on the allocation of lanes per se, merely responded to your question (which in itself did not address my own point).

What is your point?

Regardless of motorists having to share that portion of the road with other road users, it is still the portion of road allocated to private motorists.

You've misunderstood the use of allocate to mean exclusive use of the road, that's not what it means.

ThisRegard

Roadhawk wrote: »

My example mentions a Gard who would be on a shift rota including nights when public transport is not an option. I know you can please everyone, im just using a random example. Im sure there are more like it.

At a time when there'll be no traffic, and they don't need to go half way around the city, they take the next right instead of O'Connell Bridge, another right and you're there.

All the years I've worked in the city and visited I don't think I ever had the need, or want, to turn right over O'Connell Bridge.

Padraig Mor

amcalester wrote: »

What is your point?
.

It's quite clearly spelt out in post 199. The TLDR is that many (but not all certainly) of the private motorists demonised for using the quays have little choice but to do so (and would probably love to take public transport instead) - but their critics cannot contemplate any worldview outside their own bubble and make massive, often incorrect, assumptions about the motorists' motives.

LXFlyer

Padraig Mor wrote: »

It's quite clearly spelt out in post 199. The TLDR is that many (but not all certainly) of the private motorists demonised for using the quays have little choice but to do so (and would probably love to take public transport instead) - but their critics cannot contemplate any worldview outside their own bubble and make massive, often incorrect, assumptions about the motorists' motives.

Again though, how do you suggest that all of the traffic that currently uses the Quays can live with a tram crossing in both directions up to every 3 minutes, and at least 135 buses/coaches of all operators travelling inbound along the Quays per hour at peak times as well (potentially increasing to 175 if routes get diverted from College Green)?

For right or wrong, the decision was made years ago to put LUAS BXD in place through College Green and O'Connell Street/Marlborough Street, and DCC have to work around that.

For the record, I've opposed this routing from the outset, but it is built now, and we have to live with the consequences.

Purely from a practical perspective, maintaining the status quo isn't going to be an option.

amcalester

Padraig Mor wrote: »

It's quite clearly spelt out in post 199. The TLDR is that many (but not all certainly) of the private motorists demonised for using the quays have little choice but to do so (and would probably love to take public transport instead) - but their critics cannot contemplate any worldview outside their own bubble and make massive, often incorrect, assumptions about the motorists' motives.

You're very short on facts and long on assumptions here while also complaining that others are doing the same.

I haven't seen anyone demonizing motorists, what is happening is people are recognizing that the finite space should be designed to benefit the many, rather than the few which is what has been happening.

Seaswimmer

I haven't travelled through or around the Phibsborough area recently but I would imagine that a lot of people will now divert up Infirmary road and onto the North Circular.

Are there any plans in place there to cope with this expected increase or has it been mentioned anywhere as a potential issue.

LXFlyer

Deedsie wrote: »

Will there also be luas tram crossing the liffey on the Rosie Hackett bridge every 3 minutes? If there is ever a collision on Eden Quay before the Rosie Hackett there will be unbelievable traffic congestion. The time of private cars on the North Quays is over based soley on the tram. Nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of private cars in the city centre

Read my post again - the trams will operate in both directions up to every 3 minutes.

So there will be trams crossing O'Connell Bridge up to every 3 minutes and also trams crossing Rosie Hackett Bridge up to every 3 minutes.

The extended tram lengths also complicate the situation. Northbound, the tram will have to get from Westmoreland Street to the O'Connell St stop opposite Easons in one non-stop move, as otherwise the trams will block junctions. Similarly southbound trams will have to move from Marlborough Street stop to Hawkins Street in one movement, as again they would block the junctions.

That poses serious capacity issues for other road users which is the driving reason behind these changes.

brokenarms

thomasj wrote: »

Youre obviously not talking about the 39 or 39A

While it's not as bad as 2 or 3 hours ago where you can't get on the bus at times, bus is certainly no where near empty if anything it's closer to full.

No. Im not. I had no idea they were so popular.

My experience would be on the 150 and 49 routes

Weekdays are dead completely.

devnull

Clearly there is not going to be demand for 24 hour or later running services on all routes but for some there will be if the services are there.

brokenarms

devnull wrote: »

Clearly there is not going to be demand for 24 hour or later running services on all routes but for some there will be if the services are there.

I did not see anything with regards 24hr in the Busconnects plan. Is it even on the cards?

howiya

devnull wrote: »

Clearly there is not going to be demand for 24 hour or later running services on all routes but for some there will be if the services are there.

I've often wondered as I pass them on my way home at night, how much it would cost DB (or the NTA to fund it) to run the curtailed last buses as the full route and thus extending the service on some routes past 11:30.

Obviously there's more too it than simple cost as rosters and driving hours are probably very tightly managed.

LXFlyer

brokenarms wrote: »

No. Im not. I had no idea they were so popular.

My experience would be on the 150 and 49 routes

Weekdays are dead completely.

I wouldn't say that they would be representative of the network as a whole - the 15 and 16 would be the main routes along the 49 corridor, and more people would use the 27, 77a and 151 than the 150. Look at the loading on those buses!

Last buses are busy, but some routes could badly do with increased frequencies during the day and evening - I'd prefer to see those addressed first before we worry about extending operating hours through the night.

LXFlyer

brokenarms wrote: »

I did not see anything with regards 24hr in the Busconnects plan. Is it even on the cards?

It has been mentioned in passing, but no hard plans as yet.

devnull

howiya wrote: »

I've often wondered as I pass them on my way home at night, how much it would cost DB (or the NTA to fund it) to run the curtailed last buses as the full route and thus extending the service on some routes past 11:30.

Obviously there's more too it than simple cost as rosters and driving hours are probably very tightly managed.

Issues with union agreement as well in relation to work life balance as I posted earlier.

stop

devnull wrote: »

Issues with union agreement as well in relation to work life balance as I posted earlier.

Why do the union care if post 2330 routes are PSO or commercial?

Padraig Mor

LXFlyer wrote: »

Again though, how do you suggest that all of the traffic that currently uses the Quays can live with a tram crossing in both directions up to every 3 minutes, and at least 135 buses/coaches of all operators travelling inbound along the Quays per hour at peak times as well (potentially increasing to 175 if routes get diverted from College Green)?

For right or wrong, the decision was made years ago to put LUAS BXD in place through College Green and O'Connell Street/Marlborough Street, and DCC have to work around that.

For the record, I've opposed this routing from the outset, but it is built now, and we have to live with the consequences.

Purely from a practical perspective, maintaining the status quo isn't going to be an option.

Again, I haven't commented on the lane allocation - or even stated that I was against it. Just trying to get a bit of balance in the debate.

amcalester wrote: »

You're very short on facts and long on assumptions here while also complaining that others are doing the same.

I haven't seen anyone demonizing motorists, what is happening is people are recognizing that the finite space should be designed to benefit the many, rather than the few which is what has been happening.

Come off it - this forum is bursting at the seams with suppositions that every driver who uses the quays is a lazy sod who could take a bike / public transport, and who apparently takes this route just so they can clog up the road for fun (or something). Even this thread is replete with posters gloating at motorists' 'loss'. Many contributors cannot see outside the 20s/30s worldview of having an easily commutable job with few responsibilities. That people may need to do X or Y on the way to / from work, or need to be 'ready to go' for whatever reason (sick child / relative; work), or don't fancy stacking a couple of kids on the back of a bike, or have had bad experiences on PT, is something that does not apply to them so they ignore such considerations - but they do apply to many others. I don't live in Dublin but, as far as I can see, commuting through the city by car is a miserable experience - why would people do it unless they had to?

LXFlyer

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Again, I haven't commented on the lane allocation - or even stated that I was against it. Just trying to get a bit of balance in the debate.

I think on looking at these proposals, it's impossible to judge them without making the point about the physical constraints that LUAS Cross-City presents and then seeing what impact that has.


That's the driving force behind this - going on about people being anti-car is a red herring when you look at the physical capacity constraints.