Dublin North Quays - now double bus lane

LXFlyer

Riskymove wrote: »

they cannot end the turn or direct lanes for buses without causing complete mayhem to public transport so I doubt they will have to close it for traffic

with the rmeoval of the left turn a significant (imo majority) amount of the traffic will be removed from bachelor quay anyway

Buses can turn right from Eden Quay to Hawkins St via the Rosie Hackett bridge.

General traffic will only be able to go left or straight on from Bachelors Walk.

I suspect that when the reality of the impact on traffic flows of LUAS operations becomes apparent that the general traffic restrictions will be revised further.

Avada

LXFlyer wrote: »

That sounds like it was before the introduction of the College Green bus gate.

It dramatically changed the flow of traffic along O'Connell Street at peak times and more specifically bus speeds through the city centre.

I don't think it is the bus gate. My experience is that the issue is on D'Olier street. In the mornings, you have buses trying to stop and exit into traffic, combined with Delivery trucks stopping and blocking bus stops.

What is needed is to turn the left hand traffic lane into a bus lane for buses going into College Green. Ideally, I'd remove the left hand turn onto townsend street (except buses & psv vehicles), but I'm not sure if that is workable.

Riskymove

LXFlyer wrote: »

I suspect that when the reality of the impact on traffic flows of LUAS operations becomes apparent that the general traffic restrictions will be revised further.

I cannot see how they can divert public transport wihtout removing it from the centre entirely

monument

Riskymove wrote: »

I cannot see how they can divert public transport wihtout removing it from the centre entirely

He's saying there'll be a need for more restrictions on private traffic. It's quite likely too.

trellheim

to the poster above - there will be no Right turn for private traffic. Buses, PSVs and Cyclists will still be allowed turn right, the intent is to remove private traffic not to hinder buses etc.


As you can see above some experienced hands are saying it'll likely be harsh enough !

bobbyss

IE 222 wrote: »

Buses will move more freely on the quays but they will be delayed longer getting ONTO the quays especially any North or south travelling routes . Really just shifting the problem from one area to another imo. Buses don't suit everbodies travel needs there will always be a requirement for private cars.

I tend to agree with that. If you wanted to get off a bus at a stop at or just before Ormonde Quay, it will take you longer to get to that point because (as I understand it) cars are now funneled into fewer lanes thus causing more of a backup.

AlekSmart

hmmm wrote: »

My experience is that the Pearse street double bus line has been fantastic for buses. The biggest problem is it clogged up at times with taxis.

It's plainly obvious that with the LUAS coming across the bridge, something had to give - and in a choice between cars versus bus, the loser would be car traffic.

The same as every major city in the world, if you are visiting the city centre for a trip you will have to spend 5 minutes on the Internet researching public transport options or deal with bad traffic.

The Pearse Street Bus lane has indeed been a success,with only a couple of issues.

1. The legacy issue of Pearse St Garda Station's,on-street Parking requirements which remain one of Dublin's most ignored REAL Traffic problems.
The Gardai need,and are entitled to,as much parking as they need,but it cannot be directly outside the Station as tradition appears to dictate.
Secure,accessible Car Parking should have been found for the Gardai at the inception of BXD,rather than being kinda/sorta ignored until recent months.

The insistence of Bus Atha Cliath on maintaining Bus-Stops AND Termini (49-54A) at this exact location can only be described as short-sighted or bloody-minded depending upon your mood.

2. The current Mon-Sat operational hours for the Westland Row / Pearse Street Bus Lanes now require Urgent review,as we now know that this corridor will continue to carry an increasing number of Buses on a full time basis.
Currently,Westland Row and Pearse St revert to on-street Car Parking after 1900 hours,which may have been sustainable in the pre BXD days,but is now significantly impeding Bus operations at Weekends.

This location is but another example of a City without leadership,which staggers from "initiative to initiative" with little joined-up thinking or acceptance of overall responsibility.

Given the track-record of Dublin City Council,my greatest hope is that Jarret Walker would have noticed this codology and uttered an "Ah Here WTF is this" remark .......

It's not much,but it's the best I can muster ...

hmmm

Deedsie wrote: »

I agree the Pearse St Garda station parking spaces are a disaster. That will have to addressed sooner or later.

I don't see buses getting caught there however? They are caught at the lights in front of Pearse, and the bus lanes there are full of taxis pushing queues down Pearse street. Personally I think taxis should not be allowed in bus lanes during rush hours - they are a public good outside of rush hour, but it makes no sense to me why they should be given access to public transport lanes during peak periods.

Spanish Eyes

I'm still wondering about the private buses and coaches parked up outside the Arlington Hotel or thereabouts. Sorry, but they are a big problem, even if the cars are down to one lane soon.

As I said earlier, is there any reason they are not obliged to park up at Eden Quay for example.

I just don't understand why not. But someone will put me right no doubt.

jimmycrackcorm

wait4me wrote:

One of those implications is when there are events on in Dublin city (either in the evenings or weekends) such as concerts in the 3Arena or indeed games or concerts in Croke Park or the Aviva. Anybody coming from the south and west of Dublin or indeed Ireland (NOT commuters) has no real or viable option other than driving. Car traffic at those times (not commuting times!) will have to funnel into one lane on the North Quays to get where they need to get

I don't think transport policy should be dictated by the needs for people for a few concerts. Google navigation has redirected me several times off the quays towards the point for shorter traffic.

daheff wrote:

But only if there is a corresponding increase in bus services. You now have capacity for 8K+600+600 vs 8K+8k+600 (7200 increase). And only on this spot of the commute.

The capacity is not necessarily an issue. Not every bus is packed to the seams on the quays. The real issue is that towards bachelor's walk buses are being held up by other buses so this change should improve the movement of buses and consequently existing journey times.

LXFlyer

Avada wrote: »

I don't think it is the bus gate. My experience is that the issue is on D'Olier street. In the mornings, you have buses trying to stop and exit into traffic, combined with Delivery trucks stopping and blocking bus stops.

What is needed is to turn the left hand traffic lane into a bus lane for buses going into College Green. Ideally, I'd remove the left hand turn onto townsend street (except buses & psv vehicles), but I'm not sure if that is workable.

I was commenting specifically about that poster's experience from 2007 which they were trying to use as a relevant example.

LXFlyer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I'm still wondering about the private buses and coaches parked up outside the Arlington Hotel or thereabouts. Sorry, but they are a big problem, even if the cars are down to one lane soon.

As I said earlier, is there any reason they are not obliged to park up at Eden Quay for example.

I just don't understand why not. But someone will put me right no doubt.

They're not "parked up" - they are setting down passengers at an official bus stop and then continuing onwards on their journey.

That now will be inside a separate bus lane, so the issue will be irrelevant.

Spanish Eyes

LXFlyer wrote: »

They're not "parked up" - they are setting down passengers at an official bus stop and then continuing onwards on their journey.

That now will be inside a separate bus lane, so the issue will be irrelevant.

That's a relief. But their set down takes a lot longer than a DB when you think about it, unloading baggage and all the rest of it. But anyway.

Would it not be better to give space to commuters and move the private buses down to Eden Quay.

Obviously not, but there goes another opportunity to help Bachelor's Walk.

LXFlyer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

That's a relief. But their set down takes a lot longer than a DB when you think about it, unloading baggage and all the rest of it. But anyway.

Would it not be better to give space to commuters and move the private buses down to Eden Quay.

Obviously not, but there goes another opportunity to help Bachelor's Walk.

As long as they stop at their designated stop there shouldn't be an issue as it should be separate from city bus operations.

Birdie Num Num

Deedsie wrote: »

I agree the Pearse St Garda station parking spaces are a disaster. That will have to addressed sooner or later.

It's a great place to leave your car apparently. Short term, long term or otherwise I'm told.

monument

wait4me wrote: »

One of those implications is when there are events on in Dublin city (either in the evenings or weekends) such as concerts in the 3Arena or indeed games or concerts in Croke Park or the Aviva. Anybody coming from the south and west of Dublin or indeed Ireland (NOT commuters) has no real or viable option other than driving. Car traffic at those times (not commuting times!) will have to funnel into one lane on the North Quays to get where they need to get

That's just not the case.

First, it's nonsense to imply that all of the car traffic to these events will have to funnel into one lane on the quays to get where they need to go -- the quays don't carry that many people by car to start with. There's loads of other routes people use to get near Croke Park, the Aviva, or 3Arena... none of which have car parking on site, and the first two usually have large traffic restrictions around them, so, you can't drive directly to them!

Currently at peek times, traffic counts show that the quays can only carry around 380 cars at Ellis Quay and just above 600 at Bachelor's Walk, but Luas Cross City just won't allow for this -- trams crossing the quays will cut car capacity even if nothing was done with extra bus or cycling priority. But to start with it's a small proportion of those who travel to such events.

I know people from Mayo who travel to Dublin for GAA matches and others today/tomorrow getting to the city centre for the Rock 'n' Roll Dublin Half Marathon without driving at all or who would not dream of driving the whole way in.

Loads of people from the apparently wilds of the west and south get public transport buses or trains and others get private coaches the whole way and others who drive switch to Luas, buses, event shuttle bus, trains and even bicycles and walking to get the last bit into the centre.

daheff wrote: »

Its about time we started adding to the total commuting capacity rather than reallocating what we have. We're getting to the stage where reallocation isn't a viable alternative much longer.

Relocating space does add to the total capacity.

We're nowhere near the stage that reallocation isn't a viable alternative.

daheff wrote: »

We need to take a leaf out of a lot of other major cities books and build a tunnel system to allow car access to the city centre. And underground rail. We dont have overground capacity anymore.

Underground rail is fair enough and is needed and planned, but where exactly are you suggesting underground car tunnels for Dublin? From where to where?

daheff wrote: »

In any case...having double bus lane is all well and good if there are more buses available to use the capacity. I'll guess that there wont be any additional buses, so in actual fact all this does is reduce car carrying capacity on the quays.

This is so wrong on so many levels.

The extra bus priority is needed to help buses when (a) Luas Cross City is up and running and (b) which the College Green Plaza is put in place. As others have mentioned, more bus routes will be diverted onto the quays.

And there's is also extra public transport capacity:

• But Dublin Bus is adding 30 new (non-replacement) buses this year
• There will be a large shot of extra capacity when the private bus company takes over 10% of Dublin Bus routes, and the Dublin Bus buses are freed up to run on their other routes.
• Luas Cross City is new capacity serving some of the areas where car commuters start.
• Luas Cross City is also extra connectivity making previous trips requiring a long walk, now only needing to switch trams.
• The Kildare route trains taking the Phoenix Park Tunnel direct to the central business district is also extra capacity and connectivity and also serves areas in west Dublin where car commuters on the quays come from.

daheff wrote: »

Good point. Some people just dont live anywhere convenient to a public transport route....some people drive considerable distances to get to work....so even the idea of driving x distance and then getting public transport isnt feasible. They've already got the sunk costs of car/tax/insurance...the additional petrol/diesel is far less than the cost of park & ride & public transport (even if we had sufficient P&R facilities available).

It's sad that some of them were or felt forced to live such unsustainable locations, but (1) there will still be some car capacity, (2) such a small percentage of people cannot hold back adding overall extra capacity to our capital's city centre, and (3) some will re-examine the benefits of going to a train or bus which has a stop not too far from their home and paying for an annual pass vs the cost of fuel and the unproductive time cost of being stuck in a car.

brokenarms

hmmm wrote: »

I don't see buses getting caught there however? They are caught at the lights in front of Pearse, and the bus lanes there are full of taxis pushing queues down Pearse street. Personally I think taxis should not be allowed in bus lanes during rush hours - they are a public good outside of rush hour, but it makes no sense to me why they should be given access to public transport lanes during peak periods.

If they were disallowed, there would be war... But you are right, they clog up the system and its been widely ignored as a problem pushing the blame completely onto private cars.
Even if they were disallowed, they would ignore.
They cause constant problems with them stopping in bus lanes, especially in front of or behind bus stops with their hazards on. Doing nothing other than waiting for a punter to come along. Rendering the whole bus lane completely useless as I now have to wait and give way to traffic. Same with cycles TBH. But at least the cycles are making progress, albeit slow.

I guess the government will continue to ignore the rickshaw problem as this will lead to more taxis giving up and finding other work. Way to many taxis on the streets. A problem the government created.

IE 222

bobbyss wrote: »

I tend to agree with that. If you wanted to get off a bus at a stop at or just before Ormonde Quay, it will take you longer to get to that point because (as I understand it) cars are now funneled into fewer lanes thus causing more of a backup.

Right turning bridge crossing will become complete bottlenecks. Motorists will be less inclined to allow buses enter lanes if close to get through a junction. Take the 83 coming from Church street onto the quays as an example. The build up of cars trying to enter the quays will clog up church street and flow will grind to a halt. The same will happen for the northbound 83 trying cross Fr. Mathew bridge.

LXFlyer

IE 222 wrote: »

Right turning bridge crossing will become complete bottlenecks. Motorists will be less inclined to allow buses enter lanes if close to get through a junction. Take the 83 coming from Church street onto the quays as an example. The build up of cars trying to enter the quays will clog up church street and flow will grind to a halt. The same will happen for the northbound 83 trying cross Fr. Mathew bridge.

Send the 83 via Bridge St and Thomas St and that problem is solved.

Send the 79/a to North Docklands and you also avoid that issue.

There are ways around this if a bit of imagination is used.

trellheim

Before you know it some here will be arguing that BXD, the plaza and the city centre cycle route should have been designed and planned as a single entity to allow for the maximum benefit be gotten , chuckle. Well I would anyway.

IE 222

LXFlyer wrote: »

Send the 83 via Bridge St and Thomas St and that problem is solved.

Send the 79/a to North Docklands and you also avoid that issue.

There are ways around this if a bit of imagination is used.

The long term plan when colleage green closes this would be the solution but short term I don't think this change is likely to happen.

bobbyss

Does anyone know where the last bus stops on the North Quays will be located once this plan is up and running? Can't seem to find any map of this.

brokenarms

bobbyss wrote: »

Does anyone know where the last bus stops on the North Quays will be located once this plan is up and running? Can't seem to find any map of this.

Last stop is near the 3 arena. Can't see why that would change.

bobbyss

brokenarms wrote:

Last stop is near the 3 arena. Can't see why that would change.

Sorry. I meant last stop before O'C Bridge.

LXFlyer

bobbyss wrote: »

Sorry. I meant last stop before O'C Bridge.

That will depend upon which routes are diverted via the Quays.

All routes will have one stop between Capel St bridge and O'Connell Bridge - where they will be will depend upon the individual routes concerned.

LXFlyer

IE 222 wrote: »

The long term plan when colleage green closes this would be the solution but short term I don't think this change is likely to happen.

Changes are going to have to happen once full LUAS testing starts - that's the rationale behind the plaza becoming possible.

Full LUAS operations and retaining all routes via their existing routes isn't going to work.

IE 222

LXFlyer wrote: »

Changes are going to have to happen once full LUAS testing starts - that's the rationale behind the plaza becoming possible.

Full LUAS operations and retaining all routes via their existing routes isn't going to work.

Fully understand that but they need to careful not to reroute buses were there nearly bypassing the city centre otherwise numbers will drop a bit.

bobbyss

LXFlyer wrote:

All routes will have one stop between Capel St bridge and O'Connell Bridge - where they will be will depend upon the individual routes concerned.

Thanks. Where is that information from?

LXFlyer

IE 222 wrote: »

Fully understand that but they need to careful not to reroute buses were there nearly bypassing the city centre otherwise numbers will drop a bit.

They will have no choice - the physical presence of a tram every 3 mins at peak in both directions means that bus routes will have to be re-routed.

Some will share space with LUAS, others will go via the Quays and others elsewhere.

Changes will have to start happening once full testing starts.

Where each individual route ends up will involve some trial and error, but for me the fundamental issue revolves around routes 9, 16 and 122 northbound. Neither of the current proposals are in any way acceptable and a return to the drawing board is needed.

LXFlyer

bobbyss wrote: »

Thanks. Where is that information from?

The original report on the diversion of bus routes.