Goodbye Irish Rail?

devnull

Indeed, Leeds is an excellent example of how not to run a football club

Promotion would be all well and great, however just have to hope you don''t get 10 points docked for going into administration or failing financial fair play as you can't pay the bills...:)

L1011

Isambard wrote: »

or just maybe they might have to add extra services to cope with the demand.
There is a vast number of people in Ireland not on the Internet.

Most people without access to the internet are going to have free travel passes.

JP Liz V1

Isambard wrote: »

or just maybe they might have to add extra services to cope with the demand.
There is a vast number of people in Ireland not on the Internet.

Or have credit or debit cards

foggy_lad

L1011 wrote: »

Most people without access to the internet are going to have free travel passes.

Maybe it is time for Irish Rail to be removed from the Free Travel Scheme so that they can survive without the burden of those extra passengers? Would there be much of a reduction in the finances they currently receive from Government if they withdrew from the scheme? Most areas served by the trains are also well served by buses except a few towns like Thurles and Portarlington.

Personally I could see serious crowding issues with buses leaving people behind at many busy stops as they take up the passengers that would have travelled by rail, Bus Eireann would have to put on extra services and the NTA would have a mess on their hands.

Grandeeod

foggy_lad wrote: »

Maybe it is time for Irish Rail to be removed from the Free Travel Scheme so that they can survive without the burden of those extra passengers? Would there be much of a reduction in the finances they currently receive from Government if they withdrew from the scheme? Most areas served by the trains are also well served by buses except a few towns like Thurles and Portarlington.

Personally I could see serious crowding issues with buses leaving people behind at many busy stops as they take up the passengers that would have travelled by rail, Bus Eireann would have to put on extra services and the NTA would have a mess on their hands.

How are IE or DB or BE "losing" money because of the FTP? Honestly, why is it always offered up as a pancea to the financial problems. If the FTP was abolished, most likely the previous holders wouldn't make the journeys to some extent. I believe in the FTP for OAPs/disabled with restrictions, but I have a huge issue with some aspects of "sick" people receiving it. The definition of disabled in this country is very clouded.

Del.Monte

Grandeeod wrote: »

How are IE or DB or BE "losing" money because of the FTP? Honestly, why is it always offered up as a pancea to the financial problems. If the FTP was abolished, most likely the previous holders wouldn't make the journeys to some extent. I believe in the FTP for OAPs/disabled with restrictions, but I have a huge issue with some aspects of "sick" people receiving it. The definition of disabled in this country is very clouded.

But it is the right wing mantra - get rid of free travel and everything will be tickety-boo. I think that we should send pensioners off to be turned into Soylent Green myself.

monument

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Or have credit or debit cards

Do the pre-paid cars not work on Irishrail.ie?

loyatemu

If you reduced the number of FTP holders how would it help Irish Rail? Maybe they could cut a few services, but they'd probably be off-peak services, they'd still need rolling stock and drivers for the peak time services (which IME do not have a lot of FTP users). Even if they could save money by cutting services how is this different from closing lines, you're just making the overall service less attractive for paying customers.

Grandeeod

The entire FTP argument is a red herring spewed by people who don't actually know what they are talking about. Its more a case of expressing their own anger at a state supported social issue rather than how it actually affects IE's finances. They seem to think that if the FTP was eliminated tomorrow, CIE would find itself in receipt of all these new fairs that amount to more than the state gives them to cover the FTP. Not a bloody hope!

the_syco

From the Irishtimes article in the OP;

The Ennis to Athenry line, which formed the first part of the planned re-opening of the western rail corridor and which only came back into service in 2010 at a cost of about €100 million, would also be shut.

Maybe not reopen lines that were shut for a reason?

end of the road

the_syco wrote: »

From the Irishtimes article in the OP;

Maybe not reopen lines that were shut for a reason?

while that argument is apt in that particular case how far do you take it. navan was supposibly "shut for a reason" should it not reopen? brey harcourt street was also supposibly "shut for a reason" if luas hadn't used it should it have been reopened as a railway, or when the luas infrastructure does need replaceing should it be reopened as a railway if the issues with routing can be sorted?

JP Liz V1

monument wrote: »

Do the pre-paid cars not work on Irishrail.ie?

They do probably but again not everyone has them either, some folks only deal in cash

XPS_Zero

To Alcohol wrote: »

A few half truths in there. Little more. Let's stick to the facts and the facts are Fianna Fáil and the people blind enough to vote for them ruined this country.

Er no mate no...sorry but no...the facts are:

- we were but one country hit by a GLOBAL recession caused originally by deregulation of finance by US and UK govts mostly and speculation by key banks that no Irish govt had any say in

-the Irish govt had policies re property , tax cuts and property revenue that left us overexposed to said crash due to a narrow tax base

-narrowing the tax base and spending hoardes based on temporary property revenue was a policy not only every party supported but some parties (SF, FG, lab) demanddd we spend way more on

I gave you a detailed reasoned argument that no party in power could stop a global financial crash no matter what " Ireland only " decisions they made

You responded with a vague booo FF statement....mate that's not a counter argument it's blind partisan hackery the very god damn thing I was warning against..you just proved my entire point. FGs finance minister is st this moment taking advice from former executives from the key banks inc Goldman Sachs that caused the last crash, and the last govts plans to kill metro for a half assed airport Luas and cancelling dart underground even though both projects would have been PERFECT for a stimulus package during the crash....all that should prove they wouldn't have been any different.

Now if you have some fantasy coalition in mind remember the voting public, to avoid us being overexposed to the crash (it can't be prevented) would have to vote long term AGAINST tax cuts and in favour of banking a MASSIVE and expanding budget surplus in a rainy day fund or spending it on more infrastructure (a HUUUUGE amount already was at that time), that wasn't gonna happen, they were drunk on personal spending, HP (personal debt EXPLODED in that era) and confusing debt with wealth they'd never have voted for long term like that....and not ONE party ran on that in its manefesto...none.

@g true! Reality exists even if we don't acknowledge it

Whatever you think about FF it's dangerous for us as citizens to willfully over simply historic mistakes like that because we hate a particular tribe and wanna blame it all on them, by doing that we ensure our guard will drop when some other party we like more is in charge because "sure my tribe are not x tribe ergo they won't make that mistake"...but we know from their manefestos and budget reactions back then that YES THEY WOULD HAVE. Look at the US democrats, drone killings of anonymous people and detention without trial were bad when republicans did it but now that a democrat does it its fine, that's what happens when you think your tribe can't make mistakes.

They all make mistakes, if the last 5 years didn't prove that nothing will

XPS_Zero

Wanderer78 wrote: »

(dart underground ) damn expensive though

THIS is one of the key problems of Irish political attitudes to these projects: not knowing the difference between an investment and an expense.

We thankfully don't have tuition fees in Ireland for undergrad so I'll use the analogy as if we did. You're not poor, not especially rich but could afford to borrow the say 20k it might cost to go to uni and get a degree:

The German/Japanese/Chinese attitude:
"A worthwhile investment, it will help me get a much better career job rather than the crappy one I have now that I hate, I'll be better educated, research shows I'll earn 1m+ more over my lifetime, I'll have great experiences and they say you meet lifelong friends in college. Short term sacrifice long term gain - I'll do it!"

The Irish attitude: "Jaysus 20 grand? That's a big spend and sure I can't spend like that with my (current, short term) crappy job (ignoring that degree might change this), what's that to pay back over 3-4 years €100 a week? Think of the nights out I could buy with that, it might mean only going out once a week and drinking less instead of twice a week and getting hammered ...I know what I'll do, instead of having one unified career plan including relevant degree I'll do two unconnected FAS certs in totally different areas that don't complement each other like ECDL and catering, that will make me happy NOW, when I'm 43 ...ah that's 20 years away sure I'll sort it out then..."


Long term decisions made based on short term political quirks and CURRENT state finances - no foresight, that's Ireland.....

XPS_Zero

tabbey wrote: »

.

Unfortunately the CIE group of companies are strangled by the NTA noose around their necks. In David Franks we have the most dynamic leader IR has had for a long time. I have no doubt that given commercial freedom, he would address the issues and begin the process of bringing rail in Ireland to a new era of expansion.

In fairness, I remember very clearly what the system was like long before the NTA and I don't remember DB or IE innovating in any way. What I remember is them turning down or not even thinking of obvious routes prtivate operators then ate up, and IE scrapping the few innovative ticket options it had like the DART Nitelink ticket (which let you take the dart into town and nitelink home on one ticket).

I'm sure there are some innovative and creative managers in CIE and that the NTA has made some stupid decisions (I heard one anecdote I hopes not true about them telling drivers who are late to just ignore stops to catch up - I hope they're not THAT stupid) but I suspect they've become a great scapegoat ne-godsend for what were grossly inefficient bloated organisations that daily LIVE every parody of unionised workers.

XPS_Zero

Grandeeod wrote: »

How are IE or DB or BE "losing" money because of the FTP? Honestly, why is it always offered up as a pancea to the financial problems. If the FTP was abolished, most likely the previous holders wouldn't make the journeys to some extent. I believe in the FTP for OAPs/disabled with restrictions, but I have a huge issue with some aspects of "sick" people receiving it. The definition of disabled in this country is very clouded.

You can't get a Free Travel Pass on illness OR injury benefit just disability, carers and pensions.


'Non permanent disability (as defined by the DSP) is any condition expected to or already lasting longer than a year which substantially incapacitates someone's basic daily function, preventing them from work, limiting or preventing socialising etc. You can't get it with a story about a bad back no matter what the daily mail says so don't mind them.

Your GP fills out a medical report, your condition can't be vague it has to be a specific diagnosis with its own code from the manual, then you fill out your own report answering detailed questions about your daily routine, what specifically happens to you if you try to do normal activity x etc You must also indicate how long it's expected to last. This is reviewed by a welfare officer and a medical professional of the dept. You may be asked to do a review by an independent doctor at any time.

It could be claimed for depression (if you were very bad or had a past history), cancer...anything expected to take a year or more to treat but the hurdles you jump through to get it based on my experience I'd imagine there isn't much fraud I mean a docs not gonna lie for you and it's hard to fake a serious medical condition (you get blood tests for depression checking levels of meds etc) most other conditions require scan results etc for diagnosis

The reality is since the FT money's from the DSP budget not the transport budget they'd not give it to CIE if there was no FT so that's a moot point. Even if they gave it to CIE it's a fraction of what they say they need. Fare sAvings would be marginal as:

1. Most FT journeys are taken so sick/elderly person x can just get out and about for the sake of their mental health and morale so if they'd have to pay full price they'd not be able to afford them on 188/233 a week so won't make them

2. They'd limit to essential journeys so you might get 10% more money...big whoop

So with that in mind the arguments against FT don't stand up except for reforms on who gets one there's no real argument against FT itself plus the political naivety on here sometimes is adoreable ...talking about getting rid of FT is like libertarians talking about abolishing income tax and replacing it with a consumption tax...total fantasy.
Getting rid of FT would be to commit political suicide for...what? A saving that's less than 1% of the total budget? It's not gonna happen so let's talk real world soloutions here not indulge in fantasy