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Goodbye Irish Rail?

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    #32
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,082 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Squatter wrote:
    But the question isn't "who needs public services"


    All very true but it seems like our public transport is under attack. This 'defunding' reminds me of how Thatcher approached transport, in particular the train network, before privatisation. Its very worrying to watch our public transport being slowly reduced.


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    #33
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 16,020 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Del.Monte wrote: »

    Both the Co.Donegal Rlys and the Sligo, Leitrim & Northern Counties were run as tight ships with some element of subsidy back in the 1950s and this could be looked at as a model for the future.


    It was all very well when labour was plentiful and cheap but the times caught up with both of them and they're both gone for more than a half century.


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    #34
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    Wanderer78 wrote: »

    All very true but it seems like our public transport is under attack. This 'defunding' reminds me of how Thatcher approached transport, in particular the train network, before privatisation. Its very worrying to watch our public transport being slowly reduced.
    I have heard this shibboleth repeated many times.
    I was very surprised to read the following in this FT article last year:
    The unpopularity of rail privatisation is an odd phenomenon. British Rail, the monolithic state-owned operation that preceded privatisation, was one of the country s most reviled institutions. And what people do seems at variance with what they say. The story of rail usage under British Rail was one of inexorable decline. Between 1960 and 1995, passenger numbers fell by about a third. Since 1995, they have more than doubled. The dramatic trend reversal coincides exactly with privatisation.


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    #35
    terrarev
    Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭terrarev


    The problem with the train at the moment is that it can't compete in any real way with the alternatives. Intercity travel in both buses and cars is faster and cheaper and generally more convenient than taking the train.

    The way the train should realistically be able to compete is in time taken. As it's a closed system the train should be the quickest way around the country by a long way but due to infrastructure ( no double tracking mainly) this isn't the case.

    There's also the issue that outside Dublin "commuter" fares are off putting for local use. In most cases it's far cheaper to take the car.


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    #36
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Limerick is the third largest city in the country 160000 population
    Yes but now many of them live within walking distance of the station? I don't know the city well but by all accounts the local bus service is dreadful.
    Limerick is well connected to Dublin by road. The calculus involving rail transport is not going to change unless you build something with TGV speeds.


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    #37
    Squatter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,841 ✭✭✭Squatter


    Deedsie wrote: »

    If the line speeds were improved people would use it. It just too slow in its current state.

    That's a claim that cannot be proved! It would depend largely on the fare level charged. If, like Dublin - Cork, the fare was €75 in a situation where the Limerick - Dublin M7 express bus is charging only €10 then only the wealthy, the deranged and the OAP free-travel brigade would travel by train!


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    #38
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,082 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Bray Head wrote:
    I have heard this shibboleth repeated many times. I was very surprised to read the following in this


    Got that info from Chomsky and I think he could be right, since I've no personal experience, I have to go with that. Neoliberalism isn't working I'm afraid but I do understand, money doesn't grow on trees, or does it?


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    #39
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Deedsie wrote: »
    If the line speeds were improved people would use it. It just too slow in its current state.
    It's a combination of things, not just speed.

    The cost of the ticket.
    The comfort of traveling in your own car.
    The cost of getting from the train station to the end destination.
    The time taken getting from train station to the end destination.
    The hassle of finding out how to get somewhere on public transport.
    The reliability of traveling in your own car vs CIE


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    #40
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 16,020 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    hmmm wrote: »
    It's a combination of things, not just speed.

    The cost of the ticket.

    The cost of getting from the train station to the end destination.
    The time taken getting from train station to the end destination.
    The hassle of finding out how to get somewhere on public transport.

    Aircoach have been eating into the Dublin Cork route for a number of years now.
    Why would anyone want to take a slower, more expensive option be dumped at the edge of the city and then have to get a transfer to the city centre or airport?


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    #41
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,643 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Bray Head wrote: »
    As many people use my local bus stop in Dublin on a weekday than the entire sum of rail passenger traffic south of Arklow.
    It's worth looking at last year's census to see just how few passengers there are on many rail routes in Ireland.

    That census is pretty much pointless for interpreting usage on Intercity routes.

    It is carried out on a Thursday in November which is fine for commuter routes, but really doesn't give an accurate view of usage for Intercity routes, for which Friday is the busiest day of the week, when trains are strengthened and extra trains operate.


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    #42
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    lxflyer wrote: »
    That census is pretty much pointless for interpreting usage on Intercity routes.

    It is carried out on a Thursday in November which is fine for commuter routes, but really doesn't give an accurate view of usage for Intercity routes, for which Friday is the busiest day of the week, when trains are strengthened and extra trains operate.
    Let's say there's a 1/3 downward bias. Would my point change if 450 people used the rail service south of Arklow rather than 300?


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    #43
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    L1011 wrote: »
    There has been a significant recovery. You need to remember how destroyed FF left the place.

    Let's not rewrite history using partisan blinders mate.

    The FF govt ovverrelied on property tax revenue which was short term but based long term spending on it. This left our budget overexposed more than it needed to be if a recession hit. A big mistake they've since admitted. But let's not forget two things:

    1. All along the way opposition parties were saying they weren't spending ENOUGH of that cash on long term entitlements and proposing policies that would overheat the property market still more. Go back and look at their budget reactions. None of them once said let's slow down put this cash into infrastructure or a reserve fund as many of us at the time wanted

    2. Regardless of decisions on property revenue, no matter who was in govt a global financial crash was coming. Every developed country was hit hard as the global financial system is interconnected and they all fell in love with deregulation and without rules the banks went mad.

    Do you honestly think if we had some other govt we'd have been the one country on earth immune to all this??? Think about how crazy that sounds. We are a small open economy with financial services as a key sector

    Even IF we'd done better regulation and infrastructure spending instead of spending the property money on long term budget items like 10ers on welfare rates there still would have been a crash just a less severe one.....and NO opposition party was suggesting doing that.

    Facts are what they are. Trying to see history through partisan blinders only helps us repeat the same mistakes thinking "well were not tribe X so of course that won't happen to us!"


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    #44
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,505 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Suggestion for the Limerick - Nenagh - Ballybrophy

    Perhaps it should be temporarily closed for say 3-5 years... while it is closed the money used to run the line could be invested in upgrading the 30 crossings and gates which would improve speeds along the line.

    In anyone's opinion could this be a viable option?

    Most of the cost of keeping it open is maintenance, which won't go away by doing this


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    #45
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,505 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Deedsie wrote: »
    I know but, presumably not needing station masters, drivers, running costs etc would result in some savings? Put these savings into upgrading the Limerick to Birdhill section of the line which is by far the worst part of the line.

    If it covered one automation of a gate a year or one bridge over the 5, I'd be surprised.


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    #46
    snickerpuss
    Registered Users Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭snickerpuss


    Deedsie wrote: »
    I know but, presumably not needing station masters, drivers, running costs etc would result in some savings? Put these savings into upgrading the Limerick to Birdhill section of the line which is by far the worst part of the line.

    Drivers know multiple lines not just one so how do you decide who to fire? Once you had decided, how much would the redundancy be (along with that of station masters, platform staff and whoever else you're getting rid of)? And then you need to train up new drivers (which takes over a year) 5 years later to run the line again? Plus maintaining the track in the interim. Would that really be cost saving?


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    #47
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,404 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    No mention of the Waterford/Carlow line? Surely under severe pressure too from direct M9 buses? But a far bit of commuter traffic to Dublin on that line...
    Also what about Sligo and Galway lines?


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    #48
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,818 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Does Ireland have the population density outside the major urban centres to justify a complete national network?
    Wexford is the only route that I'd be vaguely familiar with and I don't know why a paying passenger would opt for the train over the bus especially when the Enniscorthy bypass is completed?


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    #49
    To Alcohol
    Registered Users Posts: 526 ✭✭✭To Alcohol


    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    Let's not rewrite history using partisan blinders mate.

    The FF govt ovverrelied on property tax revenue which was short term but based long term spending on it. This left our budget overexposed more than it needed to be if a recession hit. A big mistake they've since admitted. But let's not forget two things:

    1. All along the way opposition parties were saying they weren't spending ENOUGH of that cash on long term entitlements and proposing policies that would overheat the property market still more. Go back and look at their budget reactions. None of them once said let's slow down put this cash into infrastructure or a reserve fund as many of us at the time wanted

    2. Regardless of decisions on property revenue, no matter who was in govt a global financial crash was coming. Every developed country was hit hard as the global financial system is interconnected and they all fell in love with deregulation and without rules the banks went mad.

    Do you honestly think if we had some other govt we'd have been the one country on earth immune to all this??? Think about how crazy that sounds. We are a small open economy with financial services as a key sector

    Even IF we'd done better regulation and infrastructure spending instead of spending the property money on long term budget items like 10ers on welfare rates there still would have been a crash just a less severe one.....and NO opposition party was suggesting doing that.

    Facts are what they are. Trying to see history through partisan blinders only helps us repeat the same mistakes thinking "well were not tribe X so of course that won't happen to us!"

    A few half truths in there. Little more. Let's stick to the facts and the facts are Fianna Fáil and the people blind enough to vote for them ruined this country.


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    #50
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    It's no suprise that things are as bad as they are atm the last few years has seen staffing levels reduced and overtime increase to the point things are at their limit. Not to mention the reduction in funding as well had lead to strain on the hardware.

    We've been down this road before with regard to butchering of the railways and once theyre gone they're incredibly difficult to restore if at all. Management havent been great of course but theres certainly issues with how governments have handled this as well. The whole hyping up of roads over the years while leaving rail in the dirt has lead to this but what could be done to fix this or turn things around?

    Obviously they could go down the road of closures again and see even more damage to the system or they could look instead at completely overhauling both the company and the network as well. If they're losing money what could be done to fix this? Could things be done to improve the rail links rather than bin it as per the tried and failed tactics of the past?


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    #51
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    as predicted by several correspondents on here and elsewhere for the past few years, although lines to Galway Sligo Kerry, & Ballina going is a bit unlikely surely.

    it will happen at some stage, IE has been working towards it for years.


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    #52
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    josip wrote: »
    Does Ireland have the population density outside the major urban centres to justify a complete national network?
    Wexford is the only route that I'd be vaguely familiar with and I don't know why a paying passenger would opt for the train over the bus especially when the Enniscorthy bypass is completed?

    Does Ireland have the population density outside the major urban centres to justify having far more roads per head of population than any other country in Western Europe?

    http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Transport/Highways/Total/Per-capita

    As for why one would choose the Rosslare/Dublin train over the bus - comfort, reliability, ability to work on the journey, refreshments, scenery, toilets etc.

    ****



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    #53
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Does Ireland have the population density outside the major urban centres to justify having far more roads per head of population than any other country in Western Europe?
    Well unless you want our large population of one-off houses to be accessible only by footpath, it is kind of inevitable.....


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    #54
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Bray Head wrote: »
    Well unless you want our large population of one-off houses to be accessible only by footpath, it is kind of inevitable.....

    It may be inevitable due to bad planning but is it sustainable?

    ****



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    #55
    tabbey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    road_high wrote: »
    No mention of the Waterford/Carlow line? Surely under severe pressure too from direct M9 buses? But a far bit of commuter traffic to Dublin on that line...

    What the Waterford line needs is more direct services, via the Lavistown loop, stopping only at Carlow.

    What we have at the moment, is hopelessly uncompetitive.


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    #56
    pclive
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭pclive


    tabbey wrote: »
    What the Waterford line needs is more direct services, via the Lavistown loop, stopping only at Carlow.

    What we have at the moment, is hopelessly uncompetitive.

    With the addition of a platform/station at one end of the loop they could operate DMUs to/from Kilkenny City similar to how limerick junction/Limerick operates then all trains could have much reduced running times


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    #57
    MGWR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MGWR


    All state-run railways are "insolvent" by definition. They not only have to keep up their bloated pay schemes, but fend off over-zealous unions, and abide by the draconian regulations that they wrote for themselves and private business. Government always plays this kind of thing as a zero-sum game.

    BTW, the article does not say IE is insolvent. Yet.


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    #58
    MGWR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭MGWR


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    As an uninformed reader, it read to me like IR looking for a handout. Sure everyone else is at it (DB, AGS, teachers etc) so why not them?

    Maybe Enda and co should have waited until there was a REAL "Recovery" before they started taking credit for it.
    You got it right.


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    #59
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Sorry if off-topic but on the subject of investment in railways, how on earth was the Western Rail Corridor re-opened to be slower than the bus/road alternative? Surely it was obvious that the service had to be faster in order to attract use? Forgive my ignorance but it looks like a half-arsed job.


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    #60
    Emme
    Registered Users Posts: 4,055 ✭✭✭Emme


    road_high wrote: »
    No mention of the Waterford/Carlow line? Surely under severe pressure too from direct M9 buses? But a far bit of commuter traffic to Dublin on that line...
    Also what about Sligo and Galway lines?

    Commuter trains are always packed with people standing on the Waterford/Carlow line. Sometimes as far as Carlow in the evenings. Indeed the trains are busier than ever in the last year.


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    #61
    BuffyBot
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 24,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭BuffyBot


    Threads merged


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