Goodbye Irish Rail?

road_high · 24-10-2016 4:01pm

Emme wrote: »

Commuter trains are always packed with people standing on the Waterford/Carlow line. Sometimes as far as Carlow in the evenings. Indeed the trains are busier than ever in the last year.

I thought that too. I would have thought the line was somewhere in the middle as regards passenger numbers. Certainly if I had to commute from either Carlow or Kilkenny into Dublin city centre on a regular basis then I'd consider the 60-90 min journey times to be pretty reasonable too compared to rush hour driving.

Harvey Normal · 24-10-2016 4:02pm

Bray Head wrote: »

I have heard this shibboleth repeated many times.
I was very surprised to read the following in this FT article last year:

Populations increased. London for instance started to grow at that time.

road_high · 24-10-2016 4:03pm

pclive wrote: »

With the addition of a platform/station at one end of the loop they could operate DMUs to/from Kilkenny City similar to how limerick junction/Limerick operates then all trains could have much reduced running times

Was mooted about 20 years ago (but close Kilkenny station and have a shuttle bus) but I think it was seen as unthinkable that Kilkenny not have a direct rail service. I think the DMU shuttle sounds good but for there's no service yard or anything like it left in Kilkenny anymore.

Del.Monte · 24-10-2016 4:08pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Sorry if off-topic but on the subject of investment in railways, how on earth was the Western Rail Corridor re-opened to be slower than the bus/road alternative? Surely it was obvious that the service had to be faster in order to attract use? Forgive my ignorance but it looks like a half-arsed job.

What was even worse was that at about the same time the eastern end of the route, between Rosslare Harbour and Waterford, was closed.

end of the road · 24-10-2016 4:08pm

loyatemu wrote: »

Isn't the problem with a Sunday service with the crossing gatekeepers? They'd still be under the remit of CIE even if you privatised the train service.

during the good times the money would have been there to remove the keepers if they wanted to do it. they didn't because they aren't interested in providing a service on some lines because "gsr" or some other reason nobody can quite figure out because it's CIE.

Bray Head wrote: »

But why would you spend money on these when you could spend it on sorting out the level crossings in Dublin 4 that delay tens of thousands of passengers daily?

because by doing both you would be developing and growing another form of transport that can attract new users who wouldn't consider public transport before. if we were a grown up country who saw railways as a part of our infrastructure then the removal of level crossings along with a high quality network would have happened decades ago.

Bray Head wrote: »

Statement 2) is just not true. You can argue about supply and demand all you like but a mere 17 passengers use Nenagh daily. I would hazard that a large share pay zero fares already.
Statement 1) is your emotional response which is fine. But don't pretend there is anything close to a business case for these lines.
Public spending is

statement 2 is just very true. the service is non existant, ridiculously slow, and provides no incentive to use it. they're is a business and every other case for the network we have now. removing lines here and there ends one way, we have nothing at all. i have heard the same old nonsense for 20 years, others have been hearing that since before i was born, it has been proven to be nonsense. leaving thigs as they are is only going to lead to decline and ultimately closure of everything bar dart.
are we going to become a grown up country, or are we going to continue to make excuses for the destruction of infrastructure or lack of infrastructure like we have been doing?

Harvey Normal · 24-10-2016 4:08pm

The Limerick Waterford line is probably a bad example because it just isn't used. south tipp people go to Dublin using cars or buses, or get a lift to Thurles, they don't use the service.

It could go actually.

Jamie2k9 · 24-10-2016 4:11pm

Harvey Normal wrote: »

The Limerick Waterford line is probably a bad example because it just isn't used. south tipp people go to Dublin using cars or buses, or get a lift to Thurles, they don't use the service.

It could go actually.

They are forced to drive to Limerick J, Waterford or Kilkenny.

Harvey Normal · 24-10-2016 4:13pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They are forced to drive to Limerick J, Waterford or Kilkenny.

Or thurles for hourly trains.

I doubt that there's enough daily clonmel/carrick,chair traffic to Dublin to justify the route.

Jamie2k9 · 24-10-2016 4:16pm

Nothing is going to be closed especially the Political Railway Corridor. We had a similar report a few years ago saying the same thing.

We all accept a full new signalling system will be rolled and will be expensive but it will last for a long time so I don't really think the up front costs are something to worry about.

Someone might ask the NTA why they are funding services to PPT when safety could be a problem on the network where that 15 million could be used.

I mean a report is all well and good but it's meaningless in reality politicians know this and IE know it as it can be shaped in ones favor. It probally cost a bomb to produce it as well.

Jamie2k9 · 24-10-2016 4:17pm

Harvey Normal wrote: »

Or thurles for hourly trains.

I doubt that there's enough daily clonmel/carrick,chair traffic to Dublin to justify the route.

Given there is a two hourly Waterford-Limerick bus service not including local Clonmel service if a service was there people would use it but I understand it costs IE a lot because of gatekeepers but I don't think it's a reason to say it needs to be closed. I mean the case could be made for most route closures if services were cut to 1 or 2 daily services.

Del.Monte · 24-10-2016 4:20pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Nothing is going to be closed especially the Political Railway Corridor. We had a similar report a few years ago saying the same thing.

We all accept a full new signalling system will be rolled and will be expensive but it will last for a long time so I don't really think the up front costs are something to worry about.

Someone might ask the NTA why they are funding services to PPT when safety could be a problem on the network where that 15 million could be used.

I mean a report is all well and good but it's meaningless in reality politicians know this and IE know it. It probally cost a bomb to produce it as well.

You're very optimistic, but remember most of us thought that the South Wexford would never close despite repeated attempts by CIE for 40 years or so. I think this time, especially with the Minister concerned and the befuddled media coverage the death knell is sounding.

Bray Head · 24-10-2016 4:21pm

Harvey Normal wrote: »

Bray Head wrote: »

I have heard this shibboleth repeated many times.
I was very surprised to read the following in this FT article last year:

Populations increased. London for instance started to grow at that time.

Passenger numbers increased by an order of magnitude more than population over the period.......

end of the road · 24-10-2016 4:21pm

josip wrote: »

Does Ireland have the population density outside the major urban centres to justify a complete national network?

oh absolutely. the population is there, but they need something that is worth while using.

josip wrote: »

Wexford is the only route that I'd be vaguely familiar with and I don't know why a paying passenger would opt for the train over the bus especially when the Enniscorthy bypass is completed?

i do agree to an extent, but if they had a consistent quality of train on it, rather then using rattle traps from the suburban on some services because they can get away with it, that might be a start. the reason i pay to use the train dispite the infrequency, dispite the price, is simply i find the train a more comfortable way to travel over all then the bus. the only reason i'd ever go for the bus is i would have missed the train and it's that or nothing. it's not just the motor way that threatens the line, it's IE'S contempt for it as well which has been going on for as long as i can remember.

Del.Monte wrote: »

What was even worse was that at about the same time the eastern end of the route, between Rosslare Harbour and Waterford, was closed.

to facilitate the reopening of ennis athenry as predicted by a number of people. laughable isn't it.

Jamie2k9 · 24-10-2016 4:22pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

You're very optimistic, but remember most of us thought that the South Wexford would never close despite repeated attempts by CIE for 40 years or so. I think this time, especially with the Minister concerned and the befuddled media coverage the death knell is sounding.

Fair point about S Wexford but such mass closures would bring a Goverment down as FF would pull the plug and the next Goverment will likely see some help from FG when FF get in and they would pull the plug, we also have IND who would do the same. It's simply not going to happen with the only exception BB-Limerick.

Bray Head · 24-10-2016 4:27pm

end of the road wrote: »

Bray Head wrote: »

Statement 2) is just not true. You can argue about supply and demand all you like but a mere 17 passengers use Nenagh daily. I would hazard that a large share pay zero fares already.
Statement 1) is your emotional response which is fine. But don't pretend there is anything close to a business case for these lines.

statement 2 is just very true. the service is non existant, ridiculously slow, and provides no incentive to use it. they're is a business and every other case for the network we have now. removing lines here and there ends one way, we have nothing at all. i have heard the same old nonsense for 20 years, others have been hearing that since before i was born, it has been proven to be nonsense. leaving thigs as they are is only going to lead to decline and ultimately closure of everything bar dart.
are we going to become a grown up country, or are we going to continue to make excuses for the destruction of infrastructure or lack of infrastructure like we have been doing?

Sorry I am used to thinking at the margin. Public finances involves optimising scarce resources. It is perfectly legitimate to compare some parts of the network to others.

Here is a thought experiment. Say for the same price you could cut 5 minutes off the southside DART timetable or 20 minutes off Limerick to Ballybrophy by removing level crossings. Which would stimulate more passenger trips? Which would result in an aggregate higher number of passenger minutes saved?

My bias is toward the DART here but I am happy to be proved wrong by a better argument. Please note, at 45 minutes suburban rail from Bray to city centre is not rapid by international standards.

Del.Monte · 24-10-2016 4:29pm

Okay so, Ballybrophy this time but what do you do when eventually there's nothing left to throw overboard.

Jamie2k9 · 24-10-2016 4:31pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Okay so, Ballybrophy this time but what do you do when eventually there's nothing left to throw overboard.

No other lines are as bad as BB and it requires the most investment. I won;t come to it.

People shouldn't worry....business as usual and it will continue like that. IE will get some extra money.

We had this again a few years ago and we survived!

end of the road · 24-10-2016 4:35pm

Bray Head wrote: »

Sorry I am used to thinking at the margin. Public finances involves optimising scarce resources. It is perfectly legitimate to compare some parts of the network to others.

Here is a thought experiment. Say for the same price you could cut 5 minutes off the southside DART timetable or 20 minutes off Limerick to Ballybrophy by removing level crossings. Which would stimulate more passenger trips? Which would result in an aggregate higher number of passenger minutes saved?

My bias is toward the DART here but I am happy to be proved wrong by a better argument. Please note, at 45 minutes suburban rail from Bray to city centre is not rapid by international standards.

it's not really a good comparison because 5 minutes isn't very much compared to 20 minutes. i also happen to believe that in a grown up country these things wouldn't be a case of 1 or the other, the rail network would be seen as 1 piece of infrastructure where what investment that is needed gets done. as far as i'm concerned what needed to close of the network did in the 60s, even some of that was done on dubiousness. anything outside that is down to incompitents and failure.

Del.Monte · 24-10-2016 4:35pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

No other lines are as bad as BB and it requires the most investment. I won;t come to it.

People shouldn't worry....business as usual and it will continue like that. IE will get some extra money.

We had this again a few years ago and we survived!

What about the closure of the South Wexford?

Del.Monte · 24-10-2016 4:36pm

On RTE now.

Jamie2k9 · 24-10-2016 4:40pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

What about the closure of the South Wexford?

It's similar to BB-Limerick but we know it was more a damage limitation from a political prospective than anything else. People won't stand for a Waterford-Limerick closure at all.

Del.Monte · 24-10-2016 4:44pm

Typical bs by some expert who hasn't a clue. Even Mary Wilson sees contradiction of promoting Wild Atlantic Way and possible WRC closure.

Del.Monte · 24-10-2016 4:45pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It's similar to BB-Limerick but we know it was more a damage limitation from a political prospective than anything else. People won't stand for a Waterford-Limerick closure at all.

What people? CIE have seen fit to make the railway irrelevant to most people in the region?

ATTY · 24-10-2016 4:51pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's the eternal question Is the usage so poor because of under investment or is investment so poor because usage is too low ?

This is a good point especially with somewhere like Carrick-On-Suir with one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country. If you don't have access to a car then public transport has poor options. It's the bus along the Limerick-Waterford Road or this train to Limerick Junction and then change. If you do manage to make it to Kilkenny via a local link bus and then a bus eireann, there is no bus service to bring you out of the centre of Kilkenny to the IDA estate. A lot of people don't want to move away from home or families for work and if you can't afford a car you have limited options. Integrated infrastructure and public transport = easy mobility.

Dbu · 24-10-2016 5:19pm

Its 20 years since I have been on a train, but I will never forget the graffiti outside Dublin saying
Irish Rail, quicker by snail:D

Del.Monte · 24-10-2016 5:23pm

ATTY wrote: »

This is a good point especially with somewhere like Carrick-On-Suir with one of the highest unemployment rates in the country. If you don't have access to a car then public transport has poor options. It's the bus along the Limerick-Waterford Road or this train to Limerick Junction and then change. If you do manage to make it to Kilkenny via a local link bus and then a bus eireann, there is no bus service to bring you out of the centre of Kilkenny to the IDA estate. A lot of people don't want to move away from home or families for work and if you can't afford a car you have limited options. Integrated infrastructure and public transport = easy mobility.

FYP - I'm sure that's what you meant.

Del.Monte · 24-10-2016 5:26pm

Dbu wrote: »

Its 20 years since I have been on a train, but I will never forget the graffiti outside Dublin saying
Irish Rail, quicker by snail:D

Hilarious but I prefer something more subtle such as 'Complete Incompetence Expected' or 'Crush In Everybody'.or 'Can Ireland Endure'.

Del.Monte · 24-10-2016 5:32pm

Mark Gleeson on now - yawn.

man98 · 24-10-2016 6:20pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It's similar to BB-Limerick but we know it was more a damage limitation from a political prospective than anything else. People won't stand for a Waterford-Limerick closure at all.

I've used the service once and it was shockingly poor, most prominently the 40 minute wait at Limerick Junction. It reminded me at the time of what IÉ had done to Enniscorthy - Waterford services in the years following their introduction.

Del.Monte wrote: »

Okay so, Ballybrophy this time but what do you do when eventually there's nothing left to throw overboard.

It's parish pump politics at its finest, Irish Rail know well what they're doing.
Just some completely related trivia here: Tipperary is the only county in Ireland without a Fine Gael or Independent Alliance TD... what a coincidence it's the county which stands to lose the most here.

MeatTwoVeg · 24-10-2016 6:24pm

Absolutely no need for an intercity rail network in a country the size and with population densities of Ireland.

Taxpayers shouldn't be continually tapped up because some people are too posh to get a bus or to keep feathered union boys in the style they've become accustomed to.

Rip up the rail network, replace it with greenways and let the private bus operators pick up the slack.

Road is quicker, cheaper and more environmentally friendly.
Persisting with this 19th century technology in a modern world is madness.

Goodbye Irish Rail?

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