Goodbye Irish Rail?

Del.Monte

More closure nonsense, but with Shane Ross at the helm...

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/rail-report-routes-around-country-at-risk-of-closure-1.2840423

Newstalk and the Irish Times have already butchered the subject today and if anybody cares about retaining the rail network they need to get on the text/twitter/email machines etc.

Look at this http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/carrick-on-suir-rail-station-unused-due-to-unreliable-timetable-1.2840575 rubbish for a typical, ill-informed report from the paper of record.

LeinsterDub

It's the eternal question Is the usage so poor because of under investment or is investment so poor because usage is too low ?

_Kaiser_

As an uninformed reader, it read to me like IR looking for a handout. Sure everyone else is at it (DB, AGS, teachers etc) so why not them?

Maybe Enda and co should have waited until there was a REAL "Recovery" before they started taking credit for it.

L1011

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

As an uninformed reader, it read to me like IR looking for a handout. Sure everyone else is at it (DB, AGS, teachers etc) so why not them?

Maybe Enda and co should have waited until there was a REAL "Recovery" before they started taking credit for it.

There has been a significant recovery. You need to remember how destroyed FF left the place.

_Kaiser_

L1011 wrote: »

There has been a significant recovery. You need to remember how destroyed FF left the place.

And FG in power during the "Good Times" would have been better? (remembering that they wanted to spend even more!)

But that's a topic for another thread and I don't want to derail this one. The point is that everyone has their hand out at the moment because of the "Recovery" and the reality is that there just isn't enough money to go around (as we saw in the Budget)

Dardania

What ability do IR have to increase their ticket prices?

magicbastarder

Del.Monte wrote: »

Look at this http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/carrick-on-suir-rail-station-unused-due-to-unreliable-timetable-1.2840575 rubbish for a typical, ill-informed report from the paper of record.

what's wrong with the story?

LeinsterDub

Dardania wrote: »

What ability do IR have to increase their ticket prices?

Tickets are expensive enough as it is. Any price increase on the intercity lines will drive away customers.

Dardania

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

What ability do IR have to increase their ticket prices?

Tickets are expensive enough as it is. Any price increase on the intercity lines will drive away customers.

Not from what we can see in the UK - if it's cheaper than the alternative (car, traffic, parking, hassle etc.)

Can IR control their own prices?

snickerpuss

Dardania wrote: »

Not from what we can see in the UK - if it's cheaper than the alternative (car, traffic, parking, hassle etc.)

Can IR control their own prices?

They are set by the National Transport Authority.

Del.Monte

magicbastarder wrote: »

what's wrong with the story?

Well the 'rush hour' photograph starts it off well - why would a rural station like Carrick-on-Suir have a rush hour?

Followed by this rubbish 'The Carrick station was very busy back then because of the “boat train” to Rosslare and the beet trains between Mallow and Wellington Bridge, none of which now exist.' referring to 10 Years ago - it's more like 50 years ago that there was any worthwhile passenger traffic on the line. Of course if you don't provide trains when people might use them it's all that you can expect.

The complete lack of a Sunday service for decades makes the line useless for students or others who want to get home for the weekend.The non-promotion of the line by CIE ...The bottom line is that these routes need to be put out to tender with a subsidy if necessary with CIE (or a new body) retaining responsibility for the infrastructure. CIE have shown repeatedly that they are incapable of any vision or forward thinking and need to be removed from operational matters or they will take the whole railway system down with them.

Both the Co.Donegal Rlys and the Sligo, Leitrim & Northern Counties were run as tight ships with some element of subsidy back in the 1950s and this could be looked at as a model for the future.

Private operators are already using the network but their investment will have been futile if the present situation continues. Can't you just see Belmond and Railtours Ireland packing in the visitors for a week long rail cruise to Cork and, perhaps Limerick. With rail freight reduced to just Tara Mines traffic. :rolleyes:

Dardania

snickerpuss wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Not from what we can see in the UK - if it's cheaper than the alternative (car, traffic, parking, hassle etc.)

Can IR control their own prices?

They are set by the National Transport Authority.

Nice one - their fare determination is second link here:
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/public-transport-services/fares/fares-determinations/

Looks like they (IR) filly expect the government to hand them the required amount, and not see it come from fares...for them to be self sufficent, it would basically require a doubling of current fares...

riffmongous

Dardania wrote: »

Not from what we can see in the UK - if it's cheaper than the alternative (car, traffic, parking, hassle etc.)

Can IR control their own prices?

But it's significantly more expensive than the main alternatives imo, 50% more than bus for me (not including the luas ticket I need for Heuston) and the luas park and ride also works out cheaper and handier

LeinsterDub

Dardania wrote: »

Not from what we can see in the UK - if it's cheaper than the alternative (car, traffic, parking, hassle etc.)

75 euro Dublin to Cork this Wednesday at business hours . Plus parking in Dublin and a taxi to and from the office in Cork.

Driving 40-50 euro. Door to door

Bus 25 euro. Plus taxi to and from the office in Cork.

Logue no2

LeinsterDub wrote: »

75 euro Dublin to Cork this Wednesday at business hours . Plus parking in Dublin and a taxi to and from the office in Cork.

Driving 40-50 euro. Door to door

Bus 25 euro. Plus taxi to and from the office in Cork.

€37.98 return on Friday using peak time trains. Walk up fares are always more expensive. Even cheaper if travelling off peak for one or both legs of the journey.

_Kaiser_

Logue no2 wrote: »

€37.98 return on Friday using peak time trains. Walk up fares are always more expensive. Even cheaper if travelling off peak for one or both legs of the journey.

Not everyone can book in advance though - eg: short notice business trips - and nor should they need to. €75 is ridiculous money for the example given no matter how you cut it.

loyatemu

Del.Monte wrote: »

The complete lack of a Sunday service for decades makes the line useless for students or others who want to get home for the weekend.The non-promotion of the line by CIE ...The bottom line is that these routes need to be put out to tender with a subsidy if necessary with CIE (or a new body) retaining responsibility for the infrastructure.

Isn't the problem with a Sunday service with the crossing gatekeepers? They'd still be under the remit of CIE even if you privatised the train service.

LeinsterDub

Logue no2 wrote: »

€37.98 return on Friday using peak time trains. Walk up fares are always more expensive. Even cheaper if travelling off peak for one or both legs of the journey.

Sorry the customer needs me on site Wednesday not when it suits IR to run price promotions. I'll also be an hour late taking the train as the first service to Cork doesn't leave Dublin till 7.

Logue no2

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Sorry the customer needs me on site Wednesday not when it suits IR to run price promotions. I'll also be an hour late taking the train as the first service to Cork doesn't leave Dublin till 7.

Short notice train fares are always expensive - to compare and contrast, a single standard class fare from Euston to Manchester on Wednesday is £142 according to trainline.com - i will agree with you however on the lack of early trains to Cork, having the first train from Dublin arriving at 935am is at least one hour too late in my opinion.

There are many timetable changes that IÉ could make to improve their service and getting trains from Dublin to arrive at all InterCity destinations well before 9am would be a good start.

The train and bus services run by CIÉ should be integrated as they were in the past. It is pointless to have buses stopping at train stations if they don't connect.

As far as this report is concerned these massive cutbacks have been rumoured for a long time. I am sure Mr Ross is a cute enough politician to ensure these proposals go out for consultation...

Del.Monte

loyatemu wrote: »

Isn't the problem with a Sunday service with the crossing gatekeepers? They'd still be under the remit of CIE even if you privatised the train service.

Rail passenger transport started in Ireland in 1834 and you're seriously telling me that a problem with gate keepers has prevented Sunday services on this route for the last 50+ years.

Pixel Eater

Should the train have this demand-lead pricing structure? Should it just not have fixed standard prices just like buses? People would know the cost and might be more likely to take the train then.

roundymac

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/iarnr%C3%B3d-%C3%A9ireann-funding-crisis-puts-lines-at-risk-report-warns-1.2840355
I know there is a certain ammount of scaremongering but still it does not sound good.

Bray Head

As many people use my local bus stop in Dublin on a weekday than the entire sum of rail passenger traffic south of Arklow.
It's worth looking at last year's census to see just how few passengers there are on many rail routes in Ireland.

Bray Head

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Should the train have this demand-lead pricing structure? Should it just not have fixed standard prices just like buses? People would know the cost and might be more likely to take the train then.

No.

Demand is always variable. It makes sense to use price to ensure capacity is as high as possible at quiet times.
The problem is that even zero fares (which all OAPs and those on disability pay) is not enough to stimulate use of peripheral rail routes.

LeinsterDub

Logue no2 wrote: »

Short notice train fares are always expensive

This is true but there is no valid reason it should be so. Especially when trains are half empty

Bray Head

Deedsie wrote: »

Well my most used rail line would be the Limerick - Nenagh - Ballybrophy line. It would be terrible to see it go, I love getting the train when I can but the line is just way too slow.

Either remove or impove the 30 level crossings/accommodation gates between Annacotty and Borris in Ossory and bring the speeds up to be in line with Limerick to Dublin via Limerick Junction. Only way to save the line.

But why would you spend money on these when you could spend it on sorting out the level crossings in Dublin 4 that delay tens of thousands of passengers daily?

Wanderer78

Ah good ould 'defunding', ah sure who needs public services!

Pixel Eater

Bray Head wrote: »

No.

Demand is always variable. It makes sense to use price to ensure capacity is as high as possible at quiet times.
The problem is that even zero fares (which all OAPs and those on disability pay) is not enough to stimulate use of peripheral rail routes.

Having massive spikes in prices though hardly encourages people to use the train; especially when there is so many alternative transport options. During quite periods they could simply offer discounted fares.

Squatter

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Ah good ould 'defunding', ah sure who needs public services!

But the question isn't "who needs public services"

rather it's:

"how many different types of public transport options should be provided to bring bring people from A to B?"

and

"what is the appropriate amount of taxpayer subsidy that should be allocated to keeping under-used public sevices open?"

Bray Head

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Having massive spikes in prices though hardly encourages people to use the train; especially when there is so many alternative transport options. During quite periods they could simply offer discounted fares.

I think they do.......

Bray Head

Deedsie wrote: »

1) I just hate seeing rail lines closing
2) Limerick - Nenagh - Roscrea have big enough populations to make this line viable.

Statement 2) is just not true. You can argue about supply and demand all you like but a mere 17 passengers use Nenagh daily. I would hazard that a large share pay zero fares already.
Statement 1) is your emotional response which is fine. But don't pretend there is anything close to a business case for these lines.
Public spending is

Wanderer78

Squatter wrote:

But the question isn't "who needs public services"

All very true but it seems like our public transport is under attack. This 'defunding' reminds me of how Thatcher approached transport, in particular the train network, before privatisation. Its very worrying to watch our public transport being slowly reduced.

whisky_galore

Del.Monte wrote: »

Both the Co.Donegal Rlys and the Sligo, Leitrim & Northern Counties were run as tight ships with some element of subsidy back in the 1950s and this could be looked at as a model for the future.

It was all very well when labour was plentiful and cheap but the times caught up with both of them and they're both gone for more than a half century.

Bray Head

Wanderer78 wrote: »

All very true but it seems like our public transport is under attack. This 'defunding' reminds me of how Thatcher approached transport, in particular the train network, before privatisation. Its very worrying to watch our public transport being slowly reduced.

I have heard this shibboleth repeated many times.
I was very surprised to read the following in this FT article last year:

The unpopularity of rail privatisation is an odd phenomenon. British Rail, the monolithic state-owned operation that preceded privatisation, was one of the country s most reviled institutions. And what people do seems at variance with what they say. The story of rail usage under British Rail was one of inexorable decline. Between 1960 and 1995, passenger numbers fell by about a third. Since 1995, they have more than doubled. The dramatic trend reversal coincides exactly with privatisation.

terrarev

The problem with the train at the moment is that it can't compete in any real way with the alternatives. Intercity travel in both buses and cars is faster and cheaper and generally more convenient than taking the train.

The way the train should realistically be able to compete is in time taken. As it's a closed system the train should be the quickest way around the country by a long way but due to infrastructure ( no double tracking mainly) this isn't the case.

There's also the issue that outside Dublin "commuter" fares are off putting for local use. In most cases it's far cheaper to take the car.

Bray Head

Deedsie wrote: »

Limerick is the third largest city in the country 160000 population

Yes but now many of them live within walking distance of the station? I don't know the city well but by all accounts the local bus service is dreadful.
Limerick is well connected to Dublin by road. The calculus involving rail transport is not going to change unless you build something with TGV speeds.

Squatter

Deedsie wrote: »

If the line speeds were improved people would use it. It just too slow in its current state.

That's a claim that cannot be proved! It would depend largely on the fare level charged. If, like Dublin - Cork, the fare was €75 in a situation where the Limerick - Dublin M7 express bus is charging only €10 then only the wealthy, the deranged and the OAP free-travel brigade would travel by train!

Wanderer78

Bray Head wrote:

I have heard this shibboleth repeated many times. I was very surprised to read the following in this

Got that info from Chomsky and I think he could be right, since I've no personal experience, I have to go with that. Neoliberalism isn't working I'm afraid but I do understand, money doesn't grow on trees, or does it?

hmmm

Deedsie wrote: »

If the line speeds were improved people would use it. It just too slow in its current state.

It's a combination of things, not just speed.

The cost of the ticket.
The comfort of traveling in your own car.
The cost of getting from the train station to the end destination.
The time taken getting from train station to the end destination.
The hassle of finding out how to get somewhere on public transport.
The reliability of traveling in your own car vs CIE

whisky_galore

hmmm wrote: »

It's a combination of things, not just speed.

The cost of the ticket.

The cost of getting from the train station to the end destination.
The time taken getting from train station to the end destination.
The hassle of finding out how to get somewhere on public transport.

Aircoach have been eating into the Dublin Cork route for a number of years now.
Why would anyone want to take a slower, more expensive option be dumped at the edge of the city and then have to get a transfer to the city centre or airport?

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

As many people use my local bus stop in Dublin on a weekday than the entire sum of rail passenger traffic south of Arklow.
It's worth looking at last year's census to see just how few passengers there are on many rail routes in Ireland.

That census is pretty much pointless for interpreting usage on Intercity routes.

It is carried out on a Thursday in November which is fine for commuter routes, but really doesn't give an accurate view of usage for Intercity routes, for which Friday is the busiest day of the week, when trains are strengthened and extra trains operate.

Bray Head

lxflyer wrote: »

That census is pretty much pointless for interpreting usage on Intercity routes.

It is carried out on a Thursday in November which is fine for commuter routes, but really doesn't give an accurate view of usage for Intercity routes, for which Friday is the busiest day of the week, when trains are strengthened and extra trains operate.

Let's say there's a 1/3 downward bias. Would my point change if 450 people used the rail service south of Arklow rather than 300?

XPS_Zero

L1011 wrote: »

There has been a significant recovery. You need to remember how destroyed FF left the place.

Let's not rewrite history using partisan blinders mate.

The FF govt ovverrelied on property tax revenue which was short term but based long term spending on it. This left our budget overexposed more than it needed to be if a recession hit. A big mistake they've since admitted. But let's not forget two things:

1. All along the way opposition parties were saying they weren't spending ENOUGH of that cash on long term entitlements and proposing policies that would overheat the property market still more. Go back and look at their budget reactions. None of them once said let's slow down put this cash into infrastructure or a reserve fund as many of us at the time wanted

2. Regardless of decisions on property revenue, no matter who was in govt a global financial crash was coming. Every developed country was hit hard as the global financial system is interconnected and they all fell in love with deregulation and without rules the banks went mad.

Do you honestly think if we had some other govt we'd have been the one country on earth immune to all this??? Think about how crazy that sounds. We are a small open economy with financial services as a key sector

Even IF we'd done better regulation and infrastructure spending instead of spending the property money on long term budget items like 10ers on welfare rates there still would have been a crash just a less severe one.....and NO opposition party was suggesting doing that.

Facts are what they are. Trying to see history through partisan blinders only helps us repeat the same mistakes thinking "well were not tribe X so of course that won't happen to us!"

L1011

Deedsie wrote: »

Suggestion for the Limerick - Nenagh - Ballybrophy

Perhaps it should be temporarily closed for say 3-5 years... while it is closed the money used to run the line could be invested in upgrading the 30 crossings and gates which would improve speeds along the line.

In anyone's opinion could this be a viable option?

Most of the cost of keeping it open is maintenance, which won't go away by doing this

L1011

Deedsie wrote: »

I know but, presumably not needing station masters, drivers, running costs etc would result in some savings? Put these savings into upgrading the Limerick to Birdhill section of the line which is by far the worst part of the line.

If it covered one automation of a gate a year or one bridge over the 5, I'd be surprised.

snickerpuss

Deedsie wrote: »

I know but, presumably not needing station masters, drivers, running costs etc would result in some savings? Put these savings into upgrading the Limerick to Birdhill section of the line which is by far the worst part of the line.

Drivers know multiple lines not just one so how do you decide who to fire? Once you had decided, how much would the redundancy be (along with that of station masters, platform staff and whoever else you're getting rid of)? And then you need to train up new drivers (which takes over a year) 5 years later to run the line again? Plus maintaining the track in the interim. Would that really be cost saving?

road_high

No mention of the Waterford/Carlow line? Surely under severe pressure too from direct M9 buses? But a far bit of commuter traffic to Dublin on that line...
Also what about Sligo and Galway lines?

josip

Does Ireland have the population density outside the major urban centres to justify a complete national network?
Wexford is the only route that I'd be vaguely familiar with and I don't know why a paying passenger would opt for the train over the bus especially when the Enniscorthy bypass is completed?

To Alcohol

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Let's not rewrite history using partisan blinders mate.

The FF govt ovverrelied on property tax revenue which was short term but based long term spending on it. This left our budget overexposed more than it needed to be if a recession hit. A big mistake they've since admitted. But let's not forget two things:

1. All along the way opposition parties were saying they weren't spending ENOUGH of that cash on long term entitlements and proposing policies that would overheat the property market still more. Go back and look at their budget reactions. None of them once said let's slow down put this cash into infrastructure or a reserve fund as many of us at the time wanted

2. Regardless of decisions on property revenue, no matter who was in govt a global financial crash was coming. Every developed country was hit hard as the global financial system is interconnected and they all fell in love with deregulation and without rules the banks went mad.

Do you honestly think if we had some other govt we'd have been the one country on earth immune to all this??? Think about how crazy that sounds. We are a small open economy with financial services as a key sector

Even IF we'd done better regulation and infrastructure spending instead of spending the property money on long term budget items like 10ers on welfare rates there still would have been a crash just a less severe one.....and NO opposition party was suggesting doing that.

Facts are what they are. Trying to see history through partisan blinders only helps us repeat the same mistakes thinking "well were not tribe X so of course that won't happen to us!"

A few half truths in there. Little more. Let's stick to the facts and the facts are Fianna Fáil and the people blind enough to vote for them ruined this country.

Infini

It's no suprise that things are as bad as they are atm the last few years has seen staffing levels reduced and overtime increase to the point things are at their limit. Not to mention the reduction in funding as well had lead to strain on the hardware.

We've been down this road before with regard to butchering of the railways and once theyre gone they're incredibly difficult to restore if at all. Management havent been great of course but theres certainly issues with how governments have handled this as well. The whole hyping up of roads over the years while leaving rail in the dirt has lead to this but what could be done to fix this or turn things around?

Obviously they could go down the road of closures again and see even more damage to the system or they could look instead at completely overhauling both the company and the network as well. If they're losing money what could be done to fix this? Could things be done to improve the rail links rather than bin it as per the tried and failed tactics of the past?

Isambard

as predicted by several correspondents on here and elsewhere for the past few years, although lines to Galway Sligo Kerry, & Ballina going is a bit unlikely surely.

it will happen at some stage, IE has been working towards it for years.