Goodbye Irish Rail?

emo72

im assuming that the modus operandi here is under invest and run down, until privatisation looks like a sensible idea. seems to happen quite a lot lately.

BonnieSituation

Only in Ireland do they see consistent under investment followed by a fall off in use as the perfect storm for closures.

When you open a Motorway to Wexford and Waterford but still have brutal times for the train from the same place to Dublin then of course you get a fall off. Same will happen everywhere. Only Dublin to Cork can compete with the Motorway and even then it is still way too long and too meandering.

If they want to increase revenues have sensible timetabling and a proper network.

I recently got the train to Lim Jnc and it was a breeze in comparision to the drive and it was pleasant and relaxing. It's a no brainer to take the train when cost and time sees fit for me.

BonnieSituation

emo72 wrote: »

im assuming that the modus operandi here is under invest and run down, until privatisation looks like a sensible idea. seems to happen quite a lot lately.

Bingo

BonnieSituation

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

Absolutely no need for an intercity rail network in a country the size and with population densities of Ireland.

Taxpayers shouldn't be continually tapped up because some people are too posh to get a bus or to keep feathered union boys in the style they've become accustomed to.

Rip up the rail network, replace it with greenways and let the private bus operators pick up the slack.

Road is quicker, cheaper and more environmentally friendly.
Persisting with this 19th century technology in a modern world is madness.

And of course this is why countries all over the world are investing increasingly in rail? And why a country as small and as disparate in geography as Denmark is to us has an extensive railway system?

Harvey Normal

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

Absolutely no need for an intercity rail network in a country the size and with population densities of Ireland.

Taxpayers shouldn't be continually tapped up because some people are too posh to get a bus or to keep feathered union boys in the style they've become accustomed to.

Rip up the rail network, replace it with greenways and let the private bus operators pick up the slack.

Road is quicker, cheaper and more environmentally friendly.
Persisting with this 19th century technology in a modern world is madness.

There's always one.

BonnieSituation

ATTY wrote: »

This is a good point especially with somewhere like Carrick-On-Suir with one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country. If you don't have access to a car then public transport has poor options. It's the bus along the Limerick-Waterford Road or this train to Limerick Junction and then change. If you do manage to make it to Kilkenny via a local link bus and then a bus eireann, there is no bus service to bring you out of the centre of Kilkenny to the IDA estate. A lot of people don't want to move away from home or families for work and if you can't afford a car you have limited options. Integrated infrastructure and public transport = easy mobility.

Imagine to think that if it was easier to get around the country via public transport that it might ease pressure on land resources and values along the Eastern seaboard and the other cities.

Harvey Normal

Del.Monte wrote: »

Hilarious but I prefer something more subtle such as 'Complete Incompetence Expected' or 'Crush In Everybody'.or 'Can Ireland Endure'.

I'm on a rush time dart now. It isn't crushed at all.

I wish we extended this system and not the Luas.

BonnieSituation

Harvey Normal wrote: »

I'm on a rush time dart now. It isn't crushed at all.

I wish we extended this system and not the Luas.

So do we all.

Heavy rail is the answer to Dublin and the rest of the country's problems, but alas...

end of the road

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

Absolutely no need for an intercity rail network in a country the size and with population densities of Ireland.

the 1950s are through that door. complete and utter nonsense that has been proven false.

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

Taxpayers shouldn't be continually tapped up because some people are too posh to get a bus or to keep feathered union boys in the style they've become accustomed to.

Taxpayers aren't being continually tapped up because of non existant people who are supposibly too posh to get a bus, or to keep non feathered union boys in the style they've become accustomed to. us tax payers pay for a rail network because it's another transport method which will attract people who will not use public transport otherwise. the reality as seen by grown up countries, is that multiple methods of public transport are the best way to attract public transport usage. bus does have it's market, but the reason rail users and others don't use bus, because it doesn't and never will offer them what they are looking for from public transport. the train, just about does so.

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

Rip up the rail network, replace it with greenways and let the private bus operators pick up the slack.

the private bus operators are not going to be picking up the slack for the railways. the private car will, meaning way way more traffic on the roads, meaning an even greater amount of road spending. the greenways will also be used by a lot less then the railways. i bet you supported the nuts who ranted about the dart and the building of luas. we'd have none of them if you had your way

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

Road is quicker, cheaper and more environmentally friendly.

road is not cheeper, and not more environmentally friendly. anyone suggesting such nonsense is frankly clueless. it's only quicker, because it's been deliberately designed for that to be the case.

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

Persisting with this 19th century technology in a modern world is madness.

tell that to the vast majority of countries. the 19th century technology has been kept, not only because these countries have grown up, but because they realise it's benefits.

eeguy

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

Persisting with this 19th century technology in a modern world is madness.

Cars are a 19th century technology

Chivito550

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

Absolutely no need for an intercity rail network in a country the size and with population densities of Ireland.

Taxpayers shouldn't be continually tapped up because some people are too posh to get a bus or to keep feathered union boys in the style they've become accustomed to.

Rip up the rail network, replace it with greenways and let the private bus operators pick up the slack.

Road is quicker, cheaper and more environmentally friendly.
Persisting with this 19th century technology in a modern world is madness.

LOL. I think you'll find that in a modern world, rail is the way to go, not buses. Look at the incredible infrastructure around Central Europe and Scandanavia.

Jamie2k9

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/carrick-on-suir-rail-station-unused-due-to-unreliable-timetable-1.2840575#.WA2ZWGst1Z4.facebook

LeinsterDub

thomond2006 wrote: »

Sorry if off-topic but on the subject of investment in railways, how on earth was the Western Rail Corridor re-opened to be slower than the bus/road alternative? Surely it was obvious that the service had to be faster in order to attract use? Forgive my ignorance but it looks like a half-arsed job.

Sure you had someone come on here last week boasting about it's daily passanger numbers of 200 odd. It would take 100's of millions to make it competitive with buses and road and even then it would be more expensive and less handy.

Chivito550

I'm not familiar with that Limerick to BB line. Can somebody explain the reasons why it is so slow?

Del.Monte

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

Absolutely no need for an intercity rail network in a country the size and with population densities of Ireland.

Taxpayers shouldn't be continually tapped up because some people are too posh to get a bus or to keep feathered union boys in the style they've become accustomed to.

Rip up the rail network, replace it with greenways and let the private bus operators pick up the slack.

Road is quicker, cheaper and more environmentally friendly.
Persisting with this 19th century technology in a modern world is madness.

Great enlightened post, you've obviously given the subject serious consideration.

josip

end of the road wrote: »

road is not cheeper, and not more environmentally friendly. anyone suggesting such nonsense is frankly clueless. it's only quicker, because it's been deliberately designed for that to be the case.

Can you explain what you mean by roads being deliberately designed to be quicker?
Do you mean that there's a conscious decision to make the road infrastructure quicker than rail or that it's designed to be quick and it just happens to be quicker than rail?

Infini

Harvey Normal wrote: »

I'm on a rush time dart now. It isn't crushed at all.

I wish we extended this system and not the Luas.

Believe in another thread a while back it was mentioned that the Maynooth line was meant to be electrified back when the DART was proposed but the government wouldn't commit the cash hence the smaller system we got now.

Realistically Rail IS a better option than building more roads the REAL issue is 3 fold

1) Incompetent management with some people not suitable for the job they're meant to be doing. Without a doubt the management of IE does need a complete overhaul and maybe a cleanout it's no use just ranting and blaming the unions all the time when alot of these frustrations come from people who arent good at their jobs being pricks and aggrivating the staff.
2) Incompetent government not waking up and actually looking at improving the rail network and thinking its a liability rather than treating it the same as roads. Rail Freight can carry alot at once than trucks, it can carry more passengers for less carbon as well as being electrified thus allowing it to be used by muliple forms of electricity not just diesel but we still go and build more roads.
3)Incompetent planning: If the network was either done right or rebuilt right it would work quite well, the WRC was a joke in its implimentation and could've been done alot better if they used a more straightened route. Likewise we got half finished infrastructure like the M3 line which if built all the way to Navan would give the option of an orbital line through Drogheda as well as running it through towns with the potential for expansion and providing infrastrucure for travel. Only have to look today at the same time at how the M50 is basically at max capacity because of LACK of public transport infrastructure and NO more busses aint gonna save you from this joke.

the groutch

Del.Monte wrote: »

Hilarious but I prefer something more subtle such as 'Complete Incompetence Expected' or 'Crush In Everybody'.or 'Can Ireland Endure'.

Cycling Is Easier

foggy_lad

road_high wrote: »

No mention of the Waterford/Carlow line? Surely under severe pressure too from direct M9 buses? But a far bit of commuter traffic to Dublin on that line...
Also what about Sligo and Galway lines?

The Waterford line has good loadings from Kilkenny and Carlow with good commuter numbers and the trains from Waterford are usually well used at the weekends with day trippers shoppers match goers etc but the line from Kilkenny is single line and takes a lot to maintain.

tabbey wrote: »

What the Waterford line needs is more direct services, via the Lavistown loop, stopping only at Carlow.

What we have at the moment, is hopelessly uncompetitive.

Certainly something to consider, a lot of local traffic between Athy and Thomastown would be lost if the express trains were at the expense of stopping services.

hytrogen

MeatTwoVeg wrote:

Absolutely no need for an intercity rail network in a country the size and with population densities of Ireland.

Lol

MeatTwoVeg wrote:

Taxpayers shouldn't be continually tapped up because some people are too posh to get a bus or to keep feathered union boys in the style they've become accustomed to.

They aren't, they have the option to pay an annual commuter ticket which contributes towards the overall costs, pay per use or your road tax on your car to tarmac the roads and our water supply

MeatTwoVeg wrote:

Rip up the rail network, replace it with greenways and let the private bus operators pick up the slack.

H'up on your bike & see how few actually use greenways midweek. The whole purpose of greenways is the preservation of the land space to have the ability to reopen lines when demand returns, which it is.

MeatTwoVeg wrote:

Road is quicker, cheaper and more environmentally friendly. Persisting with this 19th century technology in a modern world is madness.

I must admit this whole nonsense gave me a right giggle for a long time, how's the Looney Tunes camp?

hytrogen

josip wrote:

Can you explain what you mean by roads being deliberately designed to be quicker? Do you mean that there's a conscious decision to make the road infrastructure quicker than rail or that it's designed to be quick and it just happens to be quicker than rail?

Meaning most of our motorways were designed to accommodate the then (when they were tendering and surveying) volumes of traffic commuting through many rural nearby towns to facilitate the most convenient routes and accommodate as much catchment about two decades ago now, hence why they're so chocka during the daily rush hours. The population density has increased around the major towns in the commuter belts of our cities with no further plans, space or funding to expand the major road network therefore we need to look at rail to get more people to where they want to go as a viable and environmentally friendlier option.

end of the road

josip wrote: »

Can you explain what you mean by roads being deliberately designed to be quicker?
Do you mean that there's a conscious decision to make the road infrastructure quicker than rail or that it's designed to be quick and it just happens to be quicker than rail?[/QUOTE

they're is an effort to insure it's quicker yes. no expence spared when it comes to building a good road, yet the comparible railway is left with no speed improvements where possible. irish rail do have to take some of the blame however as when the money was there they didn't fight hard enough and what they got has only got us very little.

foggy_lad wrote: »

The Waterford line has good loadings from Kilkenny and Carlow with good commuter numbers and the trains from Waterford are usually well used at the weekends with day trippers shoppers match goers etc but the line from Kilkenny is single line and takes a lot to maintain.

Certainly something to consider, a lot of local traffic between Athy and Thomastown would be lost if the express trains were at the expense of stopping services.

definitely another what if here isn't it. had the line from kilkenny to portlaoise direct survived as well, you could have the express serve kilkenny and run straight out of it without reversing, followed later by a stopping train which i believe were able to by-pass it if not serving it, which could have done all stops via the carlow line bar kilkenny. i believe that line was fully 90 mph as well, and instead of just leaving it they ripped every single bit of it up and later demolished the bridge. ah well, what could have been.

BonnieSituation

end of the road wrote: »

josip wrote: »

Can you explain what you mean by roads being deliberately designed to be quicker?
Do you mean that there's a conscious decision to make the road infrastructure quicker than rail or that it's designed to be quick and it just happens to be quicker than rail?

they're is an effort to insure it's quicker yes. no expence spared when it comes to building a good road, yet the comparible railway is left with no speed improvements where possible. irish rail do have to take some of the blame however as when the money was there they didn't fight hard enough and what they got has only got us very little.




definitely another what if here isn't it. had the line from kilkenny to portlaoise direct survived as well, you could have the express serve kilkenny and run straight out of it without reversing, followed later by a stopping train which i believe were able to by-pass it if not serving it, which could have done all stops via the carlow line bar kilkenny. i believe that line was fully 90 mph as well, and instead of just leaving it they ripped every single bit of it up and later demolished the bridge. ah well, what could have been.

Stuff like that just makes my stomach tun.

It's okay though. We have a shopping centre out of it...

When you see how stupidly located some of our train stations are around the country (Naas/Sallins for example) it's beyond acceptable that a well located one like KK McDonagh has what happened to it happened to it!

Jamie2k9

The Waterford line has good loadings from Kilkenny and Carlow with good commuter numbers and the trains from Waterford are usually well used at the weekends with day trippers shoppers match goers etc but the line from Kilkenny is single line and takes a lot to maintain.

This is such a myth Waterford carries an average of 30-40$ more passengers daily than Kilkenny. It's Carlow, Athy (big jump in commuters recently) and Waterford in terms of higher passengers.

All stations have annual holders as well.

Kilkenny is much more weekend traffic than Waterford but it's repeated across the intercity network.

What the Waterford line needs is more direct services, via the Lavistown loop, stopping only at Carlow.

What we have at the moment, is hopelessly uncompetitive.

To be fair times are not bad at the minute, you have the morning one via the loop (getting busier ex Waterford) and an evening service will be happening. Modest investment to signal moves would really eat into times.

A big problem is standing room only at or before Carlow regularly.

As for DublinCoach comment a few pages back, it's Kilkenny I reckon where they are doing most damage.

Commotion Ocean

IMO, Dubin Bus is much better than Irish Rail

MrJones2013

This may be slightly off topic but I just listened back to 'The Last Word' where they discussed the fact that the M50 is at capacity and that there is no contingency plan to resolve this at any stage in the near future. This sums up the country in a nutshell, there is only a focus on the here and now and zero future proofing of projects being undertaken.

In the boom years we poured billions in to investing in our road network, which was badly needed, however the rail network was neglected to an extent. Now one of the largest capital investments (the M50) is being nullified as there is no viable, reliable public transport alternative. We invested in two LUAS lines which didn't connect and now further investment is needed with another large project which is required with the LUAS cross city, a prime example of poor planning and a lack of future proofing.

tabbey

foggy_lad wrote: »

The Waterford line has good loadings from Kilkenny and Carlow with good commuter numbers.

Certainly something to consider, a lot of local traffic between Athy and Thomastown would be lost if the express trains were at the expense of stopping services.

There is no reason why express trains should be at the expense of services via Kilkenny. A down express could take a direct route while the up train was in Kilkenny, and vice versa.
Given the increasing traffic to and from Athy and Carlow, it is time to revert to double track between Cheryville and Carlow. South of Carlow the alternate direct and via Kilkenny pattern would allow an hourly service.

It is now possible to drive between Dublin and Waterford in 80 minutes, quite legally. Faced with the typical times by rail, the route south of Kilkenny will continue to decline.

Waterford - Rosslare : closed already.
Waterford - Limerick Junction, to close 2018?
Waterford - Kilkenny , maybe closed by 2025?

If something is not done to improve Waterford to Dublin, the domino effect will continue.
The writing is on the wall also for the southeastern south of Enniscorthy / Gorey / maybe even Arklow, when the M11 gets past the Slaney valley.

Jamie2k9

tabbey wrote: »

There is no reason why express trains should be at the expense of services via Kilkenny. A down express could take a direct route while the up train was in Kilkenny, and vice versa.
Given the increasing traffic to and from Athy and Carlow, it is time to revert to double track between Cheryville and Carlow. South of Carlow the alternate direct and via Kilkenny pattern would allow an hourly service.

It is now possible to drive between Dublin and Waterford in 80 minutes, quite legally. Faced with the typical times by rail, the route south of Kilkenny will continue to decline.

Waterford - Rosslare : closed already.
Waterford - Limerick Junction, to close 2018?
Waterford - Kilkenny , maybe closed by 2025?

If something is not done to improve Waterford to Dublin, the domino effect will continue.
The writing is on the wall also for the southeastern south of Enniscorthy / Gorey / maybe even Arklow, when the M11 gets past the Slaney valley.

Waterford has it's problems but it's not as bad as you make out. As I said above an evening express will be extended from Friday only to daily soon. While double tracking would be great it's not realistic and any funding could be used better elsewhere on the line.

I'ts realistic to have a block time of 2h end to end via Kilkenny and 1h35-40 via Lavistown Loop over the next few years.

Do you use the services?

IE 222

Could a six car 2x3 set not be split at Muine Bheag or Carlow one runs express to Thomastown and Waterford and other direct to KilKenny.

On return they can recouple in Muine Bheag.

IE 222

IE 222 wrote: »

Could a six car 2x3 set not be split at Muine Bheag or Carlow one runs express to Thomastown and Waterford and other direct to KilKenny.

On return they can recouple in Muine Bheag.

That would offer a simple 10 / 15 min saving to Waterford passangers