Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Grand then.

But come on there are very smart people working for both governments. If there was a benefit to cooperation it wouldn't require a talk to determine what said benefit is.

If the republic of Ireland was genuine about making friends with NI Enda Kenny wouldn't have brought up reunification. They're like a guy holding out one hand to shake and clutching a kitchen knife in the other.

At least Kenny was honest, he didn't bite the hand that feeds and then slyly play to a bigoted minority and then go running back to the hand that feeds it looking for special treatment.

Iwasfrozen

swampgas wrote: »

The issue of reunification is always going to be there in the background. Enda has his domestic audience to think about just like Arlene.

True but you can't complain about the DUP being suspicious when their suspicion is justified.

That one remark ended any possible cooperation, for good reason.

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Border arrangements are Brexit negotiations.

They will be part of it and if you think Ireland won't have a primary role or is not going to be consulted, dream on.
Wouldn't be the first time a unionist sleepwalked into disaster.

Iwasfrozen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They will be part of it and if you think Ireland won't have a primary role or is not going to be consulted, dream on.
Wouldn't be the first time a unionist sleepwalked into disaster.

You keep repeating that like a mantra. What is it based on.

Merkel has said Jreland will have as much say as any other country.

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You keep repeating that like a mantra. What is it based on.

Merkel has said Jreland will have as much say as any other country.

Merkel was talking about the general Brexit negotiations.
Part of that will be about the imposition of a border. It is juvenile to think that Dublin won't have a say in that.

Iwasfrozen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Merkel was talking about the general Brexit negotiations.
Part of that will be about the imposition of a border. It is juvenile to think that Dublin won't have a say in that.

Border arrangements are general Brexit negotiations.

Dublin will certainly have a part. No one doubts that. But not the big part you think it will.

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Border arrangements are general Brexit negotiations.

Dublin will certainly have a part. No one doubts that. But not the big part you think it will.

Dream on.

Iwasfrozen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Dream on.

There's that mantra again. Based on nothing at all.

Junkyard Tom

A split the unionist vote led to the GFA which gave us assurances the British will get behind a UI when +50% of the people decide.

The Brexit split in the unionist vote gave us a majority in the northeast who wanted to remain in the EU. One method of the northeast remaining in the EU is to push for special status which I think many English politicians would be very receptive to. To some Tories the arrangements in the northeast are considered toxic. Consider conservatives like Michael Gove:

For the 1998 Belfast Agreement is a Trojan Horse for a variety of tactics and measures which New Labour plans to implement across the rest of the United Kingdom.

Not only does the Agreement introduce a form of proportional representation which inhibits democratic accountability, it also carries in its train much else that New Labour radicals wish to see entrenched across the UK For example, it enshrines a vision of human rights which privileges contending minorities at the expense of the democratic majority.

It supplants the notion of independent citizens with one of competing client groups. It offers social and economic rights: “positive rights” which legitimise a growing role for bureaucratic agencies in the re-distribution of resources, the running of companies, the regulation of civic life and the exercise of personal choice.

It turns the police force into a political plaything whose legitimacy depends on familiarity with fashionable social theories and precise ethnic composition and not effectiveness in maintaining order. It uproots justice from its traditions and makes it politically contentious. It demeans traditional expressions of British national identity. And it privileges those who wish to refashion or deconstruct that identity.

www.cps.org.uk

Make no mistake about it the northeast of Ireland is big ol' pain in the hole for the English and any way of dumping it will, I believe, be well received in London/England. Interesting times ahead.

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There's that mantra again. Based on nothing at all.

May cannot 'find a way' to avoid a hard border without
Ireland being a principal at the table. Don't be silly about the practicalities.

catbear

From wikipedia although there's plenty of more indepth detailed sources available.

Before the fall of the Berlin Wall, British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher told Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev that neither the United Kingdom nor Western Europe wanted the reunification of Germany. Thatcher also clarified that she wanted the Soviet leader to do what he could to stop it, telling Gorbachev "We do not want a united Germany". Although she welcomed East German democracy, Thatcher worried that a rapid reunification might weaken Gorbachev, and favoured Soviet troops staying in East Germany as long as possible to act as a counterweight to a united Germany

Ireland's Taoiseach, Charles Haughey supported German Reunification and he took advantage of Ireland's presidency of the European Economic Community by calling for an extraordinary European summit in Dublin in April 1990 to calm fears held by fellow members of the EEC. Haughey saw similarities between Ireland and Germany and cited "I have expressed a personal view that coming as we do from a country which is also divided many of us would have sympathy with any wish of the people of the two German States for unification"

Along with the bags of turf we have a fair heap of political capital in the lean to.

Haughey must have loved chairing that summit after Thatchers "Out, Out, Out" dismissals.

Iwasfrozen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

May cannot 'find a way' to avoid a hard border without
Ireland being a principal at the table. Don't be silly about the practicalities.

You better hope so. Historically Ireland has had very little voice in the EU and ultimately the EU's position will correlate to whatever is best for Germany and France, as always.

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You better hope so. Historically Ireland has had very little voice in the EU and ultimately the EU's position will correlate to whatever is best for Germany and France, as always.

Out comes the Brexit mantra - themuns :rolleyes:

Iwasfrozen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Out comes the Brexit mantra - themuns :rolleyes:

Yeah, good luck with that.

catbear

It is ironic how at one time France, Italy and the UK didn't want German reunification yet now Italy happily took the vacant UK position in the central triumphrat and France successfully persuaded Germany to adopt a single currency in a move that Napoleon would have applauded.

I've been coming to the conclusion that the UK never recovered from German reunification. Its coldwar position as the west watchdog for Europe had been a consolation after the loss of Empire.

In the 1930s when Churchill talked of a common european government to end wars on the continent he didn't envisage the UK being part of it as it already had an empire.

Once the UK dropped out of the ERM there was no going back. The past was rubbish and now finance would plug the gaps. London would go on a spending spree fueled by that last remnant of empire, reserve currency status. The party is over when that goes.

Its the same party that Renton joined two decades ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0D4ekTODuA

The truth is that I'm a bad person. But, that's gonna change - I'm going to change. This is the last of that sort of thing. Now I'm cleaning up and I'm moving on, going straight and choosing life. I'm looking forward to it already. I'm gonna be just like you. The job, the family, the ****ing big television. The washing machine, the car, the compact disc and electric tin opener, good health, low cholesterol, dental insurance, mortgage, starter home, leisure wear, luggage, three piece suite, DIY, game shows, junk food, children, walks in the park, nine to five, good at golf, washing the car, choice of sweaters, family Christmas, indexed pension, tax exemption, clearing gutters, getting by, looking ahead, the day you die.

Grayson

It's weird how this thread (or at least the first one) started with a lot of analysis and has devolved into bickering and sniping. I have a feeling the tory party conference next year will be similar

steddyeddy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We were talking about borders in the context of Brexit.

What do treaties have to do with a veto on brexit borders? Ireland gave up this sovereignty through treaties.

*also I'm not a brexiter thanks.

Yes you are a brexiter. Look through your earlier posts mate.

FrancieBrady

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes you are a brexiter. Look through your earlier posts mate.

If he isn't, I am not sure why he isn't.

fernrock

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You better hope so. Historically Ireland has had very little voice in the EU and ultimately the EU's position will correlate to whatever is best for Germany and France, as always.

Merkels aim is a united states of Europe with her or, her german successor at the top.
The brits were wise and spotted this .

FrancieBrady

fernrock wrote: »

Merkels aim is a united states of Europe with her or, her german successor at the top.
The brits were wise and spotted this .

So 'let's jump ship and allow a super state led by ze evil Germans develop to the West, South and East of us'?

That was smart eh?

The Rape of Lucretia

fernrock wrote: »

Merkels aim is a united states of Europe with her or, her german successor at the top.
The brits were wise and spotted this .

The aim of Merkel, and indeed all sensible continental Europeans, is indeed a United States of Europe. But with a German chancellor at the top is not an aim - that would not be a united states. All USoE citizens will contribute equally to its governance, and the nationality of those at the top at any given time will be an irrelevancy. That is the beauty of the USoE that we are moving towards.
It will be a huge superpower, which the UK, or possibly just the UK of England and Wales, at that time, will not share in its wealth an influence. Which is fair enough - it can choose to be poorer, but in direct control of its portion of that island.

FrancieBrady

I see Arlene was stirring it some more for the party faithful.
She criticised Dublin for sending out ministers to 'talk down the NI economy'

I think the bigger challenge or crime would be to 'talk up' the basket case NI economy, Arlene dear.

Anita Blow

Arlene is laughable. She thinks she is remotely as influential or powerful as Sturgeon/Kenny/May when it comes to British/Irish relations but in reality she presides over a parasitic statelet, unwanted by mainland Britain and unaffordable to Ireland. She would rather shoot herself than be seen to agree on anything with Ireland, and so campaigned for Brexit in public while begging May for special treatment in private. The UK (England) may be resilient enough to withstand the worst of Brexit, but NI won't. Their farmers will have lost their CAP payments, their deprived areas will have lost their cohesion funds, and none of this will be replaced by Westminster who could not justify pumping more than the 211 million pounds per week they already do into NI.

Iwasfrozen

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes you are a brexiter. Look through your earlier posts mate.

Oh am I? Oh well you clearly have a better idea of my mind through the window of posts on boards than I have. I must be wrong so.

Don't be stupid. I've supported the Lisbon treaty even though I was too young to vote in either referendum.

I was against the the Brexit referendum but now it's happened the democratic vote needs to be respected. I don't think it will be as bad as people here think (or hope) but I wouldn't have chosen it.

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh am I? Oh well you clearly have a better idea of my mind through the window of posts on boards than I have. I must be wrong so.

Don't be stupid. I've supported the Lisbon treaty even though I was too young to vote in either referendum.

I was against the the Brexit referendum but now it's happened the democratic vote needs to be respected. I don't think it will be as bad as people here think (or hope) but I wouldn't have chosen it.

I think the point is, based on your record of total defence here that you might as well become a Brexiter.

Iwasfrozen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think the point is, based on your record of total defence here that you might as well become a Brexiter.

No thanks, I'd still rather people had voted to stay in the EU.

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No thanks, I'd still rather people had voted to stay in the EU.

Such is the passion of your defence it amazes me how you found grounds to vote against.
Is there a closet near by?

Capt'n Midnight

catbear wrote:

London would go on a spending spree fueled by that last remnant of empire, reserve currency status. The party is over when that goes

oops

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/10/13/standard--poors-warns-on-uk-reserve-currency-status-as-brexit-ha/

Mr Bhatia said Britain will be deemed to have lost its reserve currency status - for the first time since the early 18th Century - if the share of sterling bonds in global central bank portfolios falls below 3pc, with a knock-on effect on the rating. It was 4.9pc at the end of last year.
...
S&P said the level of short-term external debt coming due over the next 12 months is over 800pc of current account receipts, the highest of 131 countries that it rates. The figure is less than 320pc for France and the US.

Iwasfrozen

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Such is the passion of your defence it amazes me how you found grounds to vote against.
Is there a closet near by?

I don't agree with Brexit but I respect democracy and the democratic will was clear.

I don't believe it will be as bad as some people think (or hope) but I wouldn't have chosen it.

FrancieBrady

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't agree with Brexit but I respect democracy and the democratic will was clear.

I don't believe it will be as bad as some people think (or hope) but I wouldn't have chosen it.

And you have argued against every criticism of the decision or against those who promoted it and have railed against anyone voicing a negative implication.

Just what convinced you not to vote for Brexit?