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Pro12 Final Build up thread: uppity westerners v their ladyboy brothers

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    #182
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,069 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    That's my point. Healy in form is better than Buckley by miles. I wouldn't pick props purely on form. I believe therefore that Healy and McGrath are still the top 2 LHs in Ireland.

    Height is a weakness in scrums and lifting in line outs.

    There is a massive difference between Pro 12 and test rugby. I don't know if he can make the step up.

    He uses his height to his advantage at the breakdown and never seems to be weak link in scrum or operating lineouts even when up against internationals- add in fact he is easily the best ball handling front row player on the island and I don't understand where you got this opinion from..
    I mean, no he will never be a bulldozing Cian Healy in his prime (few are), but that is not his game and Healy hasn't been in form a for a long long time unfortunately


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    #183
    lostboy75
    Registered Users Posts: 485 ✭✭lostboy75


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    I wouldn't pick props purely on form.
    Interesting opinion.


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    #184
    Billysays no
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭Billysays no


    LEIN wrote: »
    Connacht need to make Connacht winning team. ;)

    Can't argue that. Already winning team. Maybe you simply failed to notice. God I love the blinkered vision. Joe is quite enough on that.


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    #185
    former total
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    Can't wait for Healy v Buckley on Saturday. Gonna be EPIC.


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    #186
    connemara man
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 6,773 Mod ✭✭✭✭connemara man


    former total wrote: »
    Can't wait for Healy v Buckley on Saturday. Gonna be EPIC.

    whose shirt looks the best. Best position in stands etc....


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    #187
    bobo the clown
    Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭bobo the clown


    Well lads. I have a 4 bed private hostel room booked just off grassmarket. It is €280 for Saturday and Sunday night. Let me know if you are interested. Not sure about transferring name but I will be heading over myself so I can check in with you if needed. Any interest in it please PM me.


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    #188
    Adbrowne
    Site Banned Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭Adbrowne


    Billysays no wrote: »
    Can't argue that. Already winning team. Maybe you simply failed to notice. God I love the blinkered vision. Joe is quite enough on that.

    Joe = multiple title winner. That sort of Blinkered is good ;)


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    #189
    Billysays no
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭Billysays no


    lostboy75 wrote: »
    Interesting opinion.

    In Ireland you wouldn't pick anything on form. You base your decisions on injury. Joe Schmidt sucks. Lvg


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    #190
    ClanofLams
    Registered Users Posts: 4,214 ✭✭✭ClanofLams


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    I reached that conclusion through watching him. He's a very good rugby player but I don't think he's an international level prop. Too short and not strong or fit enough for test rugby IMO.

    Very good club player but that's his ceiling. Yes he was in the Pro 12 team of the year but that's a made up team that doesn't actually play tests so it doesn't mean ****.*

    *i know you (ClanofLams) didn't say anything about the Pro 12 team of the year, I'm responding to typhoony in this post as well.

    Buckley has come up against top level tightheads and rarely been found wanting. Questioning his fitness is baffling and suggests you haven't watched him enough.

    Your assertion that Healy is currently in the top two looseheads in the country is laughable, he was world class at one point but on his form over the last 18 months or so he's not in the top four in Ireland.


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    #191
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 5,972 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    lostboy75 wrote: »
    Interesting opinion.

    Yeah interesting opinion developed from watching props like Woodcock, Franks x2, Hayman, Faumauina, Crockett, Tameifuna etc over the last decade or so.


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    #192
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 5,972 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    ClanofLams wrote: »
    Buckley has come up against top level tightheads and rarely been found wanting. Questioning his fitness is baffling and suggests you haven't watched him enough.

    Your assertion that Healy is currently in the top two looseheads in the country is laughable, he was world class at one point but on his form over the last 18 months or so he's not in the top four in Ireland.

    No one said currently. He is carrying injuries and is therefore off form but he is still one of the best props in the country.

    Fitness doesn't mean endurance it relates to his all round fitness in a test match.


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    #193
    ClanofLams
    Registered Users Posts: 4,214 ✭✭✭ClanofLams


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    No one said currently. He is carrying injuries and is therefore off form but he is still one of the best props in the country.

    No, he's really not. He was and possibly will be again (though that looks increasingly doubtful) but at the moment, no and that is quite obvious.


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    #194
    Billysays no
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭Billysays no


    What a laugh. Go witness rugby


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    #195
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 5,972 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Billysays no wrote: »
    What a laugh. Go witness rugby

    I watch 8 plus games every week. What do I need to "witness"?


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    #196
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    ClanofLams wrote: »
    Your assertion that Healy is currently in the top two looseheads in the country is laughable, he was world class at one point but on his form over the last 18 months or so he's not in the top four in Ireland.

    Purely on form? Sure. But that's not how it works. You are not only as good as your last game. Or your last 10-15 games. The notion that Denis Buckley is ahead of Cian Healy in the pecking order is laughable. It's fart in the wind stuff. It's the same as when you had people calling for Paddy Jackson to start ahead of Jonathan Sexton because 'on form' Sexton was having a rough time of it. Denis Buckley is going to have to move mountains to get an honest look into the national scene whilst Cian Healy and Jack McGrath are still available options. It sucks for him but that's the reality of it.


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    #197
    ClanofLams
    Registered Users Posts: 4,214 ✭✭✭ClanofLams


    Hagz wrote: »
    Purely on form? Sure. But that's not how it works. You are not only as good as your last game. Or your last 10-15 games. The notion that Denis Buckley is ahead of Cian Healy in the pecking order is laughable. It's fart in the wind stuff. It's the same as when you had people calling for Paddy Jackson to start ahead of Jonathan Sexton because 'on form' Sexton was having a rough time of it. Denis Buckley is going to have to move mountains to get an honest look into the national scene whilst Cian Healy and Jack McGrath are still available options. It sucks for him but that's the reality of it.

    When was Healy last on form as a matter of interest? Genuine question. I'm not talking about a few bad games here, to the best of my recollection he has been a shadow of himself for about two years now.

    Professional rugby careers are becoming increasingly short, heard Gordon D'Arcy saying last night on against the head the average in Ireland is 7 years. Healy is around for a decade at this stage, I don't think it's wild to suggest he may not get back to his best and hopefully that is proven wrong because Ireland could really do with his best.


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    #198
    typhoony
    Registered Users Posts: 1,495 ✭✭✭typhoony


    Hagz wrote: »
    Purely on form? Sure. But that's not how it works. You are not only as good as your last game. Or your last 10-15 games. The notion that Denis Buckley is ahead of Cian Healy in the pecking order is laughable. It's fart in the wind stuff. It's the same as when you had people calling for Paddy Jackson to start ahead of Jonathan Sexton because 'on form' Sexton was having a rough time of it. Denis Buckley is going to have to move mountains to get an honest look into the national scene whilst Cian Healy and Jack McGrath are still available options. It sucks for him but that's the reality of it.

    so bringing Healy to the world cup was the correct decision?


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    #199
    freyners
    Registered Users Posts: 4,300 ✭✭✭freyners


    "Yeah_Right' wrote:

    Fitness doesn't mean endurance it relates to his all round fitness in a test match.

    Sorry mate but that is pure and utter waffle


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    #200
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 5,972 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Hagz wrote: »
    Purely on form? Sure. But that's not how it works. You are not only as good as your last game. Or your last 10-15 games. The notion that Denis Buckley is ahead of Cian Healy in the pecking order is laughable. It's fart in the wind stuff. It's the same as when you had people calling for Paddy Jackson to start ahead of Jonathan Sexton because 'on form' Sexton was having a rough time of it. Denis Buckley is going to have to move mountains to get an honest look into the national scene whilst Cian Healy and Jack McGrath are still available options. It sucks for him but that's the reality of it.

    Thank you. Glad someone else can see beyond "he was awesome against Glasgow, Munster, Treviso and Cardiff etc. so he should start against the Boks!"


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    #201
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    Thank you. Glad someone else can see beyond "he was awesome against Glasgow, Munster, Treviso and Cardiff etc. so he should start against the Boks!"

    I don't think anybody said that.

    Personally I'd be happy for him to get the nod ahead of Kilcoyne and Cronin who I think he has consistently outperformed against the same opposition.


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    #202
    former total
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    Without getting into the rights and wrongs of it... people are talking as though Cian Healy is keeping Buckley out of the national side. That's not correct at all. Buckley is not competing with Healy and he's definitely not competing with Jack McGrath. His rivals are Kilcoyne, Cronin and Bealham and he's not making any headway against them. Even Michael Bent was capped at loosehead last year. So that's six looseheads (seven, if you count Furlong) in 12 months and Buckley wasn't one of them.

    You can rubbish Yeah_Right's explanations if you like but there must be something that is keeping him out of contention.


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    #203
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 5,972 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    freyners wrote: »
    Sorry mate but that is pure and utter waffle

    So I can't give a definition of what I meant by fitness? That's what I was doing. I think the pace of the game and the strength and ability of the opposition would leave Buckley struggling at test level. Sorry if that offends you.


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    #204
    ClanofLams
    Registered Users Posts: 4,214 ✭✭✭ClanofLams


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    Thank you. Glad someone else can see beyond "he was awesome against Glasgow, Munster, Treviso and Cardiff etc. so he should start against the Boks!"

    If only we were all as knowledgeable as you eh? Did anyone suggest Buckley should be starting for Ireland? The discussion centred on if he merits a place in the 23.

    You stated quite categorically Buckley wasn't up to test level then later stated you 'didn't know' if he could make the step up. Questioned Buckley''s fitness then clarified you meant his all round fitness in a test match, without offering any grounds for doing so or indeed even explaining what you meant. Don't suppose you work in PR or Sales?

    I note my question on when Healy was last on form has gone unanswered. Still best to keep picking him for Ireland. I'm sure he will magically find what's he been missing for 2 years now down at Carton house one of these days...


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    #205
    Billysays no
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭Billysays no


    ClanofLams wrote: »
    Still best to keep picking him for Ireland.
    Sums up the Irish squad. No matter the ability let's pick the same. Go joe. Big feckers. Eventually we'll win. Brainless


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    #206
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    ClanofLams wrote: »
    If only we were all as knowledgeable as you eh? Did anyone suggest Buckley should be starting for Ireland? The discussion centred on if he merits a place in the 23.

    Discipline maybe the issue. Think Kilcoyne is ahead of him because he is a more like-for-like player for Cian Healy.


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    #207
    Hagz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    ClanofLams wrote: »
    I note my question on when Healy was last on form has gone unanswered. Still best to keep picking him for Ireland. I'm sure he will magically find what's he been missing for 2 years now down at Carton house one of these days...

    Yeah you're not going to get an answer to that question from me. I may be a rugby enthusiast, but I don't preserve or keep track of that level of information. What does 'on form' even mean in this context? Very often 'in form' is used to describe when a player is playing at their peak. Which a player rarely ever does. A player plays to their peak maybe 2-3 seasons out of their whole careers if they're lucky. On the other hand it could be used to describe a player when they are playing at the consistent standard they've set themselves, or in other words when a player is not out of form. When was the last time Cian Healy wasn't out of form? I can't give an honest answer. When a player is playing to their accepted standard it very often goes unnoticed and isn't acknowledged.

    Eventually a player plays out of form long enough that it overshadows the standard they've set in the past. All I can say is that I don't believe Cian Healy has reached that stage in his career. It's not an answer to your question, but if I can't give an honest answer to your question then I'm not going to answer it.


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    #208
    Utopia Parkway
    Registered Users Posts: 17,335 ✭✭✭✭Utopia Parkway


    I truly hope Healy gets back to his best but his form the last 18 months or so has been dismal. He's been nowhere near one of the best props in Ireland. It's a shame as it's all injury related but he had such a physical abrasive style of play that his shelf-life at the top level could end up being shorter than most other props. Hopefully it all comes back for him but you'd have to have your doubts at this stage. The wear and tear on players of his type these days is horrifying.


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    #209
    ClanofLams
    Registered Users Posts: 4,214 ✭✭✭ClanofLams


    Hagz wrote: »
    Yeah you're not going to get an answer to that question from me. I may be a rugby enthusiast, but I don't preserve or keep track of that level of information. What does 'on form' even mean in this context? Very often 'in form' is used to describe when a player is playing at their peak. Which a player rarely ever does. A player plays to their peak maybe 2-3 seasons out of their whole careers if they're lucky. On the other hand it could be used to describe a player when they are playing at the consistent standard they've set themselves, or in other words when a player is not out of form. When was the last time Cian Healy wasn't out of form? I can't give an honest answer. When a player is playing to their accepted standard it very often goes unnoticed and isn't acknowledged.

    Eventually a player plays out of form long enough that it overshadows the standard they've set in the past. All I can say is that I don't believe Cian Healy has reached that stage in his career. It's not an answer to your question, but if I can't give an honest answer to your question then I'm not going to answer it.

    That's a fair comment. All I would say in response is that I think he's been off form or injured for at least a season and a half, by that I don't mean poor by his previous high standard but poor by top tier international standard.

    I can understand why Leinster supporters would think he hasn't been off form long enough to merit losing his place in the Irish squad but I think if someone hasn't played up to standard for that length then it's time to let them focus on their club and hopefully they will progress back to the required level.


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    #210
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 5,972 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    ClanofLams wrote: »
    If only we were all as knowledgeable as you eh? Did anyone suggest Buckley should be starting for Ireland? The discussion centred on if he merits a place in the 23.

    You stated quite categorically Buckley wasn't up to test level then later stated you 'didn't know' if he could make the step up. Questioned Buckley''s fitness then clarified you meant his all round fitness in a test match, without offering any grounds for doing so or indeed even explaining what you meant. Don't suppose you work in PR or Sales?

    I note my question on when Healy was last on form has gone unanswered. Still best to keep picking him for Ireland. I'm sure he will magically find what's he been missing for 2 years now down at Carton house one of these days...

    If you were all as knowledgeable as me then this would be a boring forum as I wouldn't have anyone to correct.

    Start or bench for Ireland, I have always said I have my doubts. Sorry I didn't realise I wasn't allowed to clarify if there was a misunderstanding over a statement I made. Apologies. I think he is too short and doesn't have the all round fitness (that's more than endurance) for test matches. Discipline is May also be an issue possibly due to fitness.

    Healy was last in top form 2 years ago. He was in good form in the middle of this season before he got injured (again). Also I don't rate Cronin that highly either. I wouldn't want him starting against the Boks in June because he has looked shaky in his test appearances so far.

    Are you saying that no proven international prop has ever been selected for a test side, despite their lack of club form and they've come good?


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    #211
    ClanofLams
    Registered Users Posts: 4,214 ✭✭✭ClanofLams


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    If you were all as knowledgeable as me then this would be a boring forum as I wouldn't have anyone to correct.

    Start or bench for Ireland, I have always said I have my doubts. Sorry I didn't realise I wasn't allowed to clarify if there was a misunderstanding over a statement I made. Apologies. I think he is too short and doesn't have the all round fitness (that's more than endurance) for test matches. Discipline is May also be an issue possibly due to fitness.

    Healy was last in top form 2 years ago. He was in good form in the middle of this season before he got injured (again). Also I don't rate Cronin that highly either. I wouldn't want him starting against the Boks in June because he has looked shaky in his test appearances so far.

    Are you saying that no proven international prop has ever been selected for a test side, despite their lack of club form and they've come good?

    Yeah we'll have to all start watching 8 games a week to reach your level. Some of us might have to give up playing and coaching but sure it'll be worth it.

    When was he in good form this season? I'm saying that if a player has been injured or out of firm for a season and a half the they shouldn't be in contention.


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