Pro12 Final Build up thread: uppity westerners v their ladyboy brothers

freyners

Yeah_Right wrote: »

So I can't give a definition of what I meant by fitness? That's what I was doing. I think the pace of the game and the strength and ability of the opposition would leave Buckley struggling at test level. Sorry if that offends you.

Your not particularly backing up what your saying and the evidence is contradicting you in most aspects. You highlighted three areas, his height strength and fitness.

He on the shorter side. Its a double edged sword as it has its advantages when scrumming and the breakdown but has disadvantages in areas like lineouts or ball carrying. Its on what side of the fence your on and I doubt we will agree in this. I will concede that there are not many players his size at test level but size shouldn't disqualify anyone

However in fitness wise you have some pretty strong evidence against the claim. He may not have test experience but he has played some 80 mins games in interpro and European games (or vs Gloucester in last years playoff nearly 90) and was no passenger in it. He is consistently the last front rower off the field in any game. Fitness is you ability to keep performing at a high level over extended time vs a variety of opposition in my book. He does that to a t

My own take in his lack if call ups is until this season he was still fairly light for a prop. He spoke about the weight gain he had to do last preseason earlier this year. He was in camp pre world cup as cover but then had a bad injury before the 6Ns and didn't have the time to be up to speed with joes methods while his competition had once recovered.

Anyways I can agree to disagree here. hes not available sat so its prob not worth discussing more on the match thread. Happy to take it to the Connacht thread if you want to continue

Yeah_Right

ClanofLams wrote: »

Yeah we'll have to all start watching 8 games a week to reach your level. Some of us might have to give up playing and coaching but sure it'll be worth it.

When was he in good form this season? I'm saying that if a player has been injured or out of firm for a season and a half the they shouldn't be in contention.

8 plus mate. And obviously higher quality than any of us play or coach at.

I thought he was coming back into form for Leinster before his latest injury. Not top form but he was heading in the right direction. I've admitted in the past that I'm a big fan of Healy. He is one the best LHs I've ever seen and one of the few truly world class players that Ireland has produced this century. Sorry if my criticism of Buckley or the fact I can understand why he isn't in the national squad at the moment, upsets you. But to quote one of your fellow Connacht supporters, "it's my opinion"

This debate is probably better suited to the Irish/Connacht/Leinster rugby forums but I'm happy to keep discussing here until I told otherwise.

Billysays no

I want someone to finally admit that Madigan multifaceted is ****. I want somebody to understand that rob Kearney used to waltz through stuff, he can hardly stumble to his 22 these days. its embarrassing. full stop

Stheno

Billysays no wrote: »

I want someone to finally admit that Madigan multifaceted is ****. I want somebody to understand that rob Kearney used to waltz through stuff, he can hardly stumble to his 22 these days. its embarrassing. full stop

wtf?

On the Buckley question, I've said it on here before but I question his build (height/weight) and while he may have great endurance, I'm not sure he has the fitness to cope with an international game, look at how CJ Stander struggled with the step up, a guy who regularly did 80 mins for ULster but was fading in at least his first few international games for Ireland.

ClanofLams

Yeah_Right wrote: »

8 plus mate. And obviously higher quality than any of us play or coach at.

I thought he was coming back into form for Leinster before his latest injury. Not top form but he was heading in the right direction. I've admitted in the past that I'm a big fan of Healy. He is one the best LHs I've ever seen and one of the few truly world class players that Ireland has produced this century. Sorry if my criticism of Buckley or the fact I can understand why he isn't in the national squad at the moment, upsets you. But to quote one of your fellow Connacht supporters, "it's my opinion"

This debate is probably better suited to the Irish/Connacht/Leinster rugby forums but I'm happy to keep discussing here until I told otherwise.

You must be a big fan if you thought he showed form close to international level this season. As Leinster are pretty much on tv every week I catch their games more often than not and Healy didnt come within a distance of international level form.

Criticism of a player doesn't upset me, spurious reasoning does however. His height offers as many advantages as disadvantages and Samson Lee is only an inch taller. On his fitness that's just speculation based on no evidence whatsoever.

ClanofLams

Stheno wrote: »

wtf?

On the Buckley question, I've said it on here before but I question his build (height/weight) and while he may have great endurance, I'm not sure he has the fitness to cope with an international game, look at how CJ Stander struggled with the step up, a guy who regularly did 80 mins for ULster but was fading in at least his first few international games for Ireland.

Stander was man of the match on his international debut and one of Ireland's leading players throughout. That is a strange definition of struggling.

This is getting really off topic now so I am going to stop posting on Healey, Buckley, Stander, etc!

Stheno

ClanofLams wrote: »

Stander was man of the match on his international debut and one of Ireland's leading players throughout. That is a strange definition of struggling.

This is getting really off topic now so I am going to stop posting on Healey, Buckley, Stander, etc!

Fair enough, as regards the match on Saturday and as a die hard Leinster fan, much as I would congratulate Connacht if they win, I can't see it happening, and do see Leinster taking the cup.

If that does happen, the winner for me will be Cullen

CatFromHue

Hard to know how it's going to go but from the 7-6 loss in Galway Leinster will have DK, Sexton, J.Mcgrath starting, Ross starting, Toner, M. Kearney, Murphy, and Heaslip coming into the team for this weekend's game in the place of McFadden, Madigan, Healy, Furlong, Moloney, Triggs, Ryan and V der Flier

That's a big change in playing personal where I think the Connacht team that day will have Henshaw, Dillane, and Heenan to strengthen the team coming in and have a few strong guys like Buckley and White, though Bealham is looking good, going out.

Frankly just Sexton coming in in place of Madigan is a big boost to the Leinster team that lost in Galway.

Billysays no

CatFromHue wrote: »

Hard to know how it's going to go but from the 7-6 loss in Galway Leinster will have DK, Sexton, J.Mcgrath starting, Ross starting, Toner, M. Kearney, Murphy, and Heaslip coming into the team for this weekend's game in the place of McFadden, Madigan, Healy, Furlong, Moloney, Triggs, Ryan and V der Flier

That's a big change in playing personal where I think the Connacht team that day will have Henshaw, Dillane, and Heenan to strengthen the team coming in and have a few strong guys like Buckley and White, though Bealham is looking good, going out.

Frankly just Sexton coming in in place of Madigan is a big boost to the Leinster team that lost in Galway.

buckley and white haven't been available to Connacht for ages nor will they be available this weekend? have you been watching Connacht in the last two months?

Hagz

Billysays no wrote: »

buckley and white haven't been available to Connacht for ages nor will they be available this weekend? have you been watching Connacht in the last two months?

I think the more appropriate question is did you read his post?

Adbrowne

ClanofLams wrote: »

Stander was man of the match on his international debut and one of Ireland's leading players throughout. That is a strange definition of struggling.

This is getting really off topic now so I am going to stop posting on Healey, Buckley, Stander, etc!

Stander did struggle in the last quarter of games he finished. Not a criticism of him either just the reality of the step up.

molloyjh

Jesus this place really is going to the dogs. It seems people aren't entitled to their own opinions anymore, especially when it comes to Connacht players.

At the end of the day Buckley isn't getting selected because he has struggled with fitness at critical times and combine that with his lack of experience against top sides and you can see Joes logic. Especially when he has so many other LHs who are fit and/or proven at higher levels. Given that he won't be involved this weekend though I really have no idea why we're talking about him.

The selection of Nige as ref is good, and it's great to see Whitehouse on touch as well. I think he's had a very good season. It's hard to know who, if anyone, benefits most from the officials though. Nige likes a game to flow and can be somewhat forgiving at the breakdown to facilitate. A good fast game may sound like it suits Connacht but we saw Leinster thrive last week on quick ball too.

As to typhoonys point on playing a wide game, well I reckon we'll see Isa and Luke on the wing so good luck there. I'd hardly call Healy and Niyi rock solid defenders tbh and if anyone is likely to make hay out wide I'd say it's Leinster more than Connacht. Where Connacht might be best to target is midfield and broken play, where Aki seems to really excel. I reckon the big question is can Connachts pack go toe to toe with Leinster's for the full 80? With athletic guys like Dooley, Cronin, Furlong, Molony and Conan on Leinster's bench that's a big ask in fairness.

dub_skav

I'm probably on my own here but I haven't liked owens's performances recently. Most notably the h cup final. He missed a lot and made some odd decisions. I hope it is not the beginning of a decline and he remains the best for some time.
However, as always both teams should be looking to win without needing the ref involved

ionadnapokot

No fear of Owens decline.
By some distance still the best referee in the world.
44 now another 5 good years in him if he keeps the fitness.

wp_rathead

molloyjh wrote: »

Jesus this place really is going to the dogs. It seems people aren't entitled to their own opinions anymore, especially when it comes to Connacht players..

Ah c'mon molloyjh, you're better than using this auld chestnut
Ofcourse everyone is entitled to their opinion, however they are not entitled to their opinion not being challenged
Poster said something about a player that alot of people disagree with, will always cause discussion

Buer

dub_skav wrote: »

I'm probably on my own here but I haven't liked owens's performances recently. Most notably the h cup final. He missed a lot and made some odd decisions. I hope it is not the beginning of a decline and he remains the best for some time.

He has been around a long time and refereed at the top for quite some time. Referees decline just like anyone. I think he's still the top referee in the league but that is probably down to the fact that he commands such respect from those on the field.

Some of his decisions in the ECC final were poor particularly a crucial penalty under the posts for Saracens where he made a complete mess of it and backtracked on what he had indicated. That was Clancy-esque.

razorblunt

Bit of a shambles it's on the same day as the Edinburgh Marathon Festival, apparently hotel rooms are an awful price.
Was half thinking of sticking the murrayfield gaff up on air b'n'b but stuck doing painting in one of the rooms for the weekend.

Picking up a Connaught jersey off a lad from Mayo in work, just need to make sure I'm not wearing any blue on the day ;-)

former total

Buer wrote: »

He has been around a long time and refereed at the top for quite some time. Referees decline just like anyone. I think he's still the top referee in the league but that is probably down to the fact that he commands such respect from those on the field.

Some of his decisions in the ECC final were poor particularly a crucial penalty under the posts for Saracens where he made a complete mess of it and backtracked on what he had indicated. That was Clancy-esque.

Totally agree with this. He escapes abuse that other refs would get for the same decisions/performances because of his past record, but certainly he's left me scratching my head a few times this season. Still a great ref, of course.

Whitehouse and Davies are running the line, they have both really impressed me. Davies has been very strong both in the first Connacht v Glasgow game and in Leinster v Ulster.

molloyjh

wp_rathead wrote: »

Ah c'mon molloyjh, you're better than using this auld chestnut
Ofcourse everyone is entitled to their opinion, however they are not entitled to their opinion not being challenged
Poster said something about a player that alot of people disagree with, will always cause discussion

That point wasn't aimed at yourself wp, discussion is fine. There was a slightly over the top reaction from others on it is all. The OPs comments being called things like "laughable" isn't discussion. I get what YR was saying regarding fitness, i.e. Buckleys ability to keep pace with international rugby which is played at a massively different pace from anything he is used to. I don't have an opinion either way tbh, but instead of discussing that point a few people just decided to take umbrage and have a go. They were talking about him lasting 80 mins in a Pro12 game, which was irrelevant to what YR was talking about. Some just seemed to go looking for the offensive remark and latch onto that rather than rationally identify what the actual point was.

And it's not the first time some of those people have done that kind of thing. It makes discussion amongst those of us who want to have it all the more difficult.

DGRulz

wp_rathead wrote: »

Ah c'mon molloyjh, you're better than using this auld chestnut
Ofcourse everyone is entitled to their opinion, however they are not entitled to their opinion not being challenged
Poster said something about a player that alot of people disagree with, will always cause discussion

Yea, thats great and all but theres challenging an opinion and theres being incredible precious about that opinion and being a bit of a dick to the poster who gave it. To be honest theres been a number of times this season that these boards have been downright painful to read and I don't think its any coincidence that its coinciding with Connacht's rise. I don't know if the posters in question have always been here and just contained themselves to the Connacht thread or if they're pure bangwagoners and I don't really care, it just needs to stop. I'm very happy to see Connacht as a team finally step up and I hope it continues next season, and I don't mean tar all a teams supporters with the same brush but lads, quite frankly, having seen what this place has become over the last season theres a siazable part of me that wants to see Connacht absolutely thrashed because of some of the posters on here.

ionadnapokot

Bazzo wrote: »

I don't think anybody said that.

Personally I'd be happy for him to get the nod ahead of Kilcoyne and Cronin who I think he has consistently outperformed against the same opposition.

Agreed. He is without doubt the 2nd best LH in Ireland(CH is simply a shadow of the player he was). But would also doubt his fitness for 60 min at Int level.
But the 80 mins that JMcG played v Wal and 74 v Fra 6 days later with Cronin sitting on the bench was just weird.
Buckley was more than capable of at least 15 mins in each.

His injury tips the balance towards Leinster

swiwi_

swiwi_ wrote: »

Buckley is a big loss for Connacht, although maybe I'm missing something, because there hasn't been sniff of an Irish call up for him at any point this season.

My sincere apologies to the forum for this post.

Could I suggest bringing the thread back on topic by debating (in a theoretical world where he played for Leinster rather than Munster) whether Zebo would start on the wing ahead of Dave Kearney.

Also, for good measure whether Earls would start ahead of Henshaw at centre if he played for Connacht.

And just because - "Heaslip".

.ak

There's a bit of hostility in the air here lately...

Brilliant, now I won't feel so bad when Leinster beat Connacht in their first play off final.

Quint2010

Interesting to hear comments saying that if Connacht lose that it wont change their season and they will still be proud. How many stories have I read over the years of top players "proven winners" saying that it's the fear of losing that drives them on? If Connacht go into the final thinking that losing doesn't matter and that it won't change their season-they will definitely lose!

irishgrover

molloyjh wrote: »

Jesus this place really is going to the dogs. It seems people aren't entitled to their own opinions anymore, especially when it comes to Connacht players..........
QUOTE]

In fairness, this is, at a minimum, a questionable statement, and not very representative of reality ....
1. Buckley is injured and has been for a while
2. Yeah_Right gave an opinion on Buckley and then backed it up with some "questionable" rationale in the eyes of many which was challenged by a number of people who clearly had a different view, based on maybe not watching up to 8 games a week, but possibly on watching more games where Buckley was actually playing....
3. Just because someone has a different opinion than you does not mean you don't have a right to that view. Respect and good manners should prevail..

Quint2010

Jesus half the posts on here are about a player who isn't even playing on Saturday...

irishgrover

Quint2010 wrote: »

Interesting to hear comments saying that if Connacht lose that it wont change their season and they will still be proud. How many stories have I read over the years of top players "proven winners" saying that it's the fear of losing that drives them on? If Connacht go into the final thinking that losing doesn't matter and that it won't change their season-they will definitely lose!

I guessing that that the professional players would have a slightly different view on this then us amateur fans :-)

How many times has Muldoon stated after a big win..."We have won nothing yet, we have a lot to improve on etc..."

I think the same applies to the discussion on how much they celebrated at the weekend... there had always been very fired up throughout the season...

Personally I'm more concerned about their ability to replicate that manic style that they have displayed in closing out games in Galway this year... I think that the mentality they display in the sports ground has not always travelled....

Either way, especially if the weather is good, it has the potential to be epic...

ionadnapokot

Quint2010 wrote: »

Jesus half the posts on here are about a player who isn't even playing on Saturday...

sob a big loss!
Happy?

irishgrover

ionadnapokot wrote: »

sob a big loss!
Happy?

sob is not injured though? fully expect him to be on the bench!

sydthebeat

ionadnapokot wrote: »

sob a big loss!
Happy?

he'll probably be benching on saturday