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Pro 12 semi final - Leinster v Ulster 20/05/2016, 19:45. Live on Sky, TG4, BBCNI

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    #332
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Adbrowne wrote: »
    HEC final 2012. Not too many wingers scored that day. Is sexton the only back to score in a final for Leinster?

    Very good point actually. Heaslip in 2009, Sexton & Hines in 2011, SOB & Healy & penalty try & VDM & Cronin in 2012 IIRC. No outside back, never mind winger, has ever scored a try for Leinster in a HEC final. It hasn't stopped us winning 3 of them.

    In fact of all the 6 finals Leinster have won only 1 of them saw a winger score a try. The evidence is fairly overwhelming that wingers are not required to score tries by any means. Teams can be hugely successful without a winger scoring loads of tries. And if wingers don't need to score loads of tries then you're going to look for them to do other things. Tries scored these days is about as useful a metric as flankers scoring tries. It has a bearing, but it's not the be all and end all.


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    #333
    ionadnapokot
    Registered Users Posts: 4,764 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    rugby hasn't changed that much that wingers aren't the ones most likely to score tries!
    Luke Fitzgerald is prob the best all round winger in Ireland (when not injured or coming back from one). But you do need a finisher on every team and that is really not his forte.
    Point of Order. Wingers are supposed to score 5 pointers!
    In Every WC a winger has topped the try scoring charts.
    For the last 6-7 seasons in the pro12, Top 14, Super Rugby, ERC Cup, 6N and Rugby Chmpionship 90%+ of the time the top try scorer in those competitions are wingers.


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    #334
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,929 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    Just as a matter of interest, has every top scorer in the WC come from a SH team?


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    #335
    ionadnapokot
    Registered Users Posts: 4,764 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    Just as a matter of interest, has every top scorer in the WC come from a SH team?

    French unmentionable and English unmentionable were joint top in 11
    French lad tied with SH in 91


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    #336
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    ionadnapokot wrote: »
    rugby hasn't changed that much that wingers aren't the ones most likely to score tries!
    Luke Fitzgerald is prob the best all round winger in Ireland (when not injured or coming back from one). But you do need a finisher on every team and that is really not his forte.
    Point of Order. Wingers are supposed to score 5 pointers!
    In Every WC a winger has topped the try scoring charts.
    For the last 6-7 seasons in the pro12, Top 14, Super Rugby, ERC Cup, 6N and Rugby Chmpionship 90%+ of the time the top try scorer in those competitions are wingers.

    There's a difference between wingers being most likely to score and being required to as a major part of measuring their performance. If a winger breaks the line numerous times in every game and sets up at least 1 try a match but never actually scores one is he a bad winger? Of course not, and anyone who thinks that is just wrong. And that's not something I say lightly. A winger is a cog in a bigger machine. Often times he'll be the one in space to score due the the nature of the game but as long as he's doing his part to make sure the team is scoring it really doesn't matter one iota whether it's him or someone else getting the actual 5 pointers.

    In 2011-12 when Leinster were at their peak and everyone was talking about how great they were playing only 3 of their 28 tries in the HEC came from wingers. 2 of which ironically came from Luke and the other from Nacewa. So 90% of Leinsters tries came from someone other than a winger. That pretty conclusively proves that wingers are not required to score tries in order to not just be successful, but also to play an attractive brand of rugby as well.

    Some teams will use their wingers as finishers and others won't. If a winger is there to be a finisher then the tries scored metric is more important than if he isn't. And at Leinster we haven't really been using wingers as finishers in a while. It hasn't stopped us from being successful because it isn't a requirement for wingers to score tries.


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    #337
    ionadnapokot
    Registered Users Posts: 4,764 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    molloyjh wrote: »
    There's a difference between wingers being most likely to score and being required to as a major part of measuring their performance. If a winger breaks the line numerous times in every game and sets up at least 1 try a match but never actually scores one is he a bad winger? Of course not, and anyone who thinks that is just wrong. And that's not something I say lightly. A winger is a cog in a bigger machine. Often times he'll be the one in space to score due the the nature of the game but as long as he's doing his part to make sure the team is scoring it really doesn't matter one iota whether it's him or someone else getting the actual 5 pointers.

    In 2011-12 when Leinster were at their peak and everyone was talking about how great they were playing only 3 of their 28 tries in the HEC came from wingers. 2 of which ironically came from Luke and the other from Nacewa. So 90% of Leinsters tries came from someone other than a winger. That pretty conclusively proves that wingers are not required to score tries in order to not just be successful, but also to play an attractive brand of rugby as well.

    Some teams will use their wingers as finishers and others won't. If a winger is there to be a finisher then the tries scored metric is more important than if he isn't. And at Leinster we haven't really been using wingers as finishers in a while. It hasn't stopped us from being successful because it isn't a requirement for wingers to score tries.

    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make to me here?
    I am obv tipping my hat to Luke Fitz performance in this match and his overall contributions as a winger. You like Fitz on the wing?
    I pointed out that wingers have always been and continue to be the players on the pitch who will more than likely score. The game hasn't changed in that regard.

    The Leinster example is explained in two words. Joe Schmidt! ....& Leicester final!


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    #338
    ionadnapokot
    Registered Users Posts: 4,764 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    Just for the record, and I'm not been smart, but i do get that wingers don't just stand out in space on the wing trying to keep their gear clean, get on the end of a few passes and dot it down in the corner. Fix the hair and trot back over to the wing again!


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    #339
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    ionadnapokot wrote: »
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make to me here?
    I am obv tipping my hat to Luke Fitz performance in this match and his overall contributions as a winger. You like Fitz on the wing?
    I pointed out that wingers have always been and continue to be the players on the pitch who will more than likely score. The game hasn't changed in that regard.

    The Leinster example is explained in two words. Joe Schmidt! ....& Leicester final!

    How is Joe Schmidt an example in that regard? Maybe I'm missing it


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    #340
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,758 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    FWIW 5 of Ireland's top 10 try scorers in history are wingers, 6 if you were to include Geordan Murphy who played a decent bit on the wing. Given three of those wingers are still currently playing, (Bowe, Trimble and Earls), it would suggest that our wingers still score plenty of tries. Of course some of Earls's tries will have come from the centre (Italy in the WC springs to mind for one).


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    #341
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    bilston wrote: »
    FWIW 5 of Ireland's top 10 try scorers in history are wingers, 6 if you were to include Geordan Murphy who played a decent bit on the wing. Given three of those wingers are still currently playing, (Bowe, Trimble and Earls), it would suggest that our wingers still score plenty of tries. Of course some of Earls's tries will have come from the centre (Italy in the WC springs to mind for one).


    Trimble played a chunk at center as well but yeah that's not very surprising. No one would argue wingers don't score quite often, but it doesn't mean it's always going to be the primary expectation of every winger.


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    #342
    ionadnapokot
    Registered Users Posts: 4,764 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    How is Joe Schmidt an example in that regard? Maybe I'm missing it

    Joe Schmidt defining role of the winger
    "Ruck, Ruck and ruck some more. That's to key to scoring more"

    Edit.....can't think of a rhyme for Contestable and Kick chase!


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    #343
    MarinersBlues
    Registered Users Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭MarinersBlues


    ionadnapokot wrote: »
    Joe Schmidt defining role of the winger
    "Ruck, Ruck and ruck some more. That's to key to scoring more"

    Edit.....can't think of a rhyme for Contestable and Kick chase!

    Detestable and face


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    #344
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 5,970 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    ionadnapokot wrote: »
    Point of Order. Wingers are supposed to score 5 pointers!
    In Every WC a winger has topped the try scoring charts.

    Point of order: In two RWCs a centre and centre/FB have been joint top try scorers with a winger.


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    #345
    Ardillaun
    Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    So what are the stats of top international teams in this regard e.g. NZ, Oz? Are their wings no longer among the top try scorers on the team?


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    #346
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    ionadnapokot wrote: »
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make to me here?
    I am obv tipping my hat to Luke Fitz performance in this match and his overall contributions as a winger. You like Fitz on the wing?
    I pointed out that wingers have always been and continue to be the players on the pitch who will more than likely score. The game hasn't changed in that regard.

    The Leinster example is explained in two words. Joe Schmidt! ....& Leicester final!

    My point is a simple one. Using tries scored as a definitive metric for a winger like awec was isn't a true measure of a wingers quality. A winger doesn't have to score tries to be a good winger. Not anymore at least.


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    #347
    ionadnapokot
    Registered Users Posts: 4,764 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    molloyjh wrote: »
    My point is a simple one. Using tries scored as a definitive metric for a winger like awec was isn't a true measure of a wingers quality. A winger doesn't have to score tries to be a good winger. Not anymore at least.

    & I doubt many, if any, would argue against Fitz start in on the wing for Leinster, or Ireland based on that performance.
    I do feel it's definitely his best position


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    #348
    MattD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭MattD


    So we'll just start Sean Cronin and Jamie Heaslip on the wings then!

    Leinstertainment reigns once again!


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    #349
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,145 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Stephen Ferris
    ESPN have gotten very exact on the player details nowadays

    Isikeli Kurimavua Nacewa(5') James Peter Richard Heaslip(48') Sean M. Cronin(65')
    Jonathan Jeremiah Sexton(6', 49', 66')
    Jonathan Jeremiah Sexton(11', 16', 57')

    Craig James Hunter Gilroy(39', 70')
    David Patrick Lindsay James Jackson(70')
    David Patrick Lindsay James Jackson(27', 32')

    http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=269549&league=270557


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    #350
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,189 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Hunter and Lindsay?

    No wonder they're mentally weak.


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    #351
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Sean Cronin's middle name is actually M.

    After the Bond character I presume.


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    #352
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Paddy Jackson is a Dave?


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    #353
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,929 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    Jonathan Jeremiah Sexton sounds like someone that would have been burning witches in the late 1600's.


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    #354
    MarinersBlues
    Registered Users Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭MarinersBlues


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Paddy Jackson is a Dave?
    That's going to get very confusing when Rodney moves up to ye.


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    #355
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Posted in the Connacht thread, seems like a cheap albeit long option! http://www.celtichorizontours.com/packages/4620/rugby/pro-12/connaught-v-leinster/day-trip-by-coach-by-ferry.aspx


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    #356
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    The Folks were saying that small sections of the Ulster fans were booing as Leinster ran onto the pitch. I'm guessing these fans were just taking the piss, or are Ulster attracting a few boys from Windsor Park these days?


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    #357
    Teferi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    The Folks were saying that small sections of the Ulster fans were booing as Leinster ran onto the pitch. I'm guessing these fans were just taking the piss, or are Ulster attracting a few boys from Windsor Park these days?

    There are a small section of Ulster fans that I've seen a variety of bad behaviours from over the last number of years. Not just your run-of-the-mill type general arseholery either. Luckily, the vast majority are fantastic fans. It's best to ignore the bad ones.


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    #358
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,016 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Teferi wrote: »
    There are a small section of Ulster fans that I've seen a variety of bad behaviours from over the last number of years. Not just your run-of-the-mill type general arseholery either. Luckily, the vast majority are fantastic fans. It's best to ignore the bad ones.

    Oh for sure, I've always been of the opinion that Ulster fans are great craic, so was surprised to hear this from my folks.


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    #359
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,459 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Ah there were people booing as a joke.

    Some boos when the teams were read out too.


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    #360
    Synode
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,967 ✭✭✭Synode


    Yeah there was a few up where we were booing and laughing. Was certainly in jest


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    #361
    Digifriendly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,020 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    I'm an Ulster supporter but I get increasingly irritated by some of the myopic and extremely biased shouts from certain sections of the Kingspan crowd, some of whom give the impression that they don't really know the rules of the game at all. I know that all fans are partisan to a certain degree (and I'm one of them) but sometimes the abuse shouted at the referee in particular makes me feel embarrassed.


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