Pro 12 semi final - Leinster v Ulster 20/05/2016, 19:45. Live on Sky, TG4, BBCNI

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 21-05-2016 12:50pm

bilston wrote: »

The question I have is why does Fitzgerald not score more tries? Is he just unlucky? Is he a poor finisher? Is it the way the teams he plays in go about their business? He has played mostly in Schmidt coached teams and we know Joe has his own views on what a winger should bring to the party so maybe that is something to do with it.

Very possible. This point has been made a number of times in regards to Irish wingers. They don't have a lot to do, in an attacking sense, in the Irish team, so players that would be considered average in other countries/systems rack up considerable playing time. Trimble looked a mile off the pace in the 6 nations but defensively he's a big unit and offers more in that respect than someone like Gilroy or Matt Healy might.
Fitzgerald seems like the kind of winger that could do an awful lot more than he's ever asked to do. His try against Argentina in the WC is a perfect example. He pretty much made that one himself, if I'm remembering it correctly. At the same time I can see the benefit of having the whole team on the same page at all times. A winger makes a break that takes his own team by surprise and the ball ends up getting turned over, not a good look.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 21-05-2016 12:52pm

former total wrote: »

I was really impressed with Reddan's kicking last night and it's not always his strongest suit.

He's still second choice for Ireland, I'd be pretty sure of that.

Is Murray injured or was it just a precautionary substitution in the last Munster match?

21-05-2016 1:03pm

bilston wrote: »

The question I have is why does Fitzgerald not score more tries? Is he just unlucky? Is he a poor finisher? Is it the way the teams he plays in go about their business? He has played mostly in Schmidt coached teams and we know Joe has his own views on what a winger should bring to the party so maybe that is something to do with it.

None of the Leinster wingers seem to score many. With Fitz, if he keeps playing like he did last night then I don't care, he makes a huge difference to the team when fit and in form.

awec · 21-05-2016 1:36pm

Faith Hallowed Nectar wrote: »

None of the Leinster wingers seem to score many. With Fitz, if he keeps playing like he did last night then I don't care, he makes a huge difference to the team when fit and in form.

Nacewa has 9, second only to Gilroy in the pro12 try scoring table.

irishbucsfan · 21-05-2016 1:43pm

awec wrote: »

Nacewa has 9, second only to Gilroy in the pro12 try scoring table.

Our wingers have generally not scored many tries going all the way back to the Schmidt days. Just the way we play really. Fitzgerald actually was a very regular try scorer in his first couple of seasons and ended up going on the Lions tour in 2009 based on that, in fact was a test Lion starting on the left wing. After that Leinster changed.

thomond2006 · 21-05-2016 1:47pm

Keith Earls only scored 1 try this season for Munster FWIW.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 21-05-2016 1:53pm

awec wrote: »

Nacewa has 9, second only to Gilroy in the pro12 try scoring table.

How many of Nacewa's tries have come from the wing?

Buer · 21-05-2016 2:20pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

How many of Nacewa's tries have come from the wing?

4. Zebre, Treviso, Cardiff and Munster.

Only the Treviso and Cardiff tries were scored with him actually in the position of a winger though.

Bazzo · 21-05-2016 3:47pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Our wingers have generally not scored many tries going all the way back to the Schmidt days. Just the way we play really. Fitzgerald actually was a very regular try scorer in his first couple of seasons and ended up going on the Lions tour in 2009 based on that, in fact was a test Lion starting on the left wing. After that Leinster changed.

I'm a big Fitzgerald fan and for me he's a cert for the 11 Irish jersey, but I do wonder if Irish wingers not being prolific try scorers contributes to our lacklustre attacking efforts.

molloyjh · 21-05-2016 4:00pm

I think this obsession with wingers scoring tries is bizarre. The game has moved on and tries will come from all over these days. Leinster scored more tries than Ulster last night, none of which were scored by a winger. That goes to show you just how important having your wingers scoring tries is. In other words it's not. At all. It's important that your team are scoring tries.

Look back at that Drico try against Cardiff in the HEC QF in 2012. Fitz ran a perfect line to set it up. Are we going to knock the guy for not scoring the try himself or applaud him for his involvement in getting the score?

It just seems daft to obsess over strike rate in what is quite obviously a truly team sport. It's not like soccer where you have your striker whose primary job is to score goals. A winger is part of a unit. If the unit is scoring tries then who bloody cares as long as the winger is doing his bit to make it happen.

Non-wingers last night scored tries more than wingers. And the team that was able to get scores from more than just their wingers won. Spin Fitzys try count whatever way you want, he was excellent in that first 40 and that's the end of it.

molloyjh · 21-05-2016 4:01pm

Bazzo wrote: »

I'm a big Fitzgerald fan and for me he's a cert for the 11 Irish jersey, but I do wonder if Irish wingers not being prolific try scorers contributes to our lacklustre attacking efforts.

When Leinster were at their peak their wingers weren't the main source of their tries either. I don't think it's relevant tbh.

sydthebeat · 21-05-2016 4:03pm

Bazzo wrote: »

I'm a big Fitzgerald fan and for me he's a cert for the 11 Irish jersey, but I do wonder if Irish wingers not being prolific try scorers contributes to our lacklustre attacking efforts.

I think it's the other way round

Our attacking patterns don't lend themselves towards prolific wing tries.

We seem to end up with more back row scorers than other comparable teams, but maybe that's just my skewed vision.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 21-05-2016 4:08pm

Bazzo wrote: »

I'm a big Fitzgerald fan and for me he's a cert for the 11 Irish jersey, but I do wonder if Irish wingers not being prolific try scorers contributes to our lacklustre attacking efforts.

There are try scoring wingers available to the Irish team though. Gilroy and Healy (tied with Isa) are the top 2 try scorers in the Pro12 this season, so far. Gilroy and Zebo were 2 and 3 last season.
If we wanted to play try scoring wingers just because they score tries we could.

salmocab · 21-05-2016 4:55pm

Oh god another debate about Irish wingers, great.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 21-05-2016 4:56pm

salmocab wrote: »

Oh god another debate about Irish wingers, great.

It's not a debate, it's a discussion.

salmocab · 21-05-2016 4:57pm

oh god another discussion about Irish wingers, great.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 21-05-2016 4:58pm

salmocab wrote: »

oh god another discussion about Irish wingers, great.

Imagine, on a website made for discussion too.

thomond2006 · 21-05-2016 5:07pm

Garry Bastareaud put in some good hits yesterday.

Ardillaun · 21-05-2016 5:15pm

bilston wrote: »

awec wrote: »

Reddan's kicking was great except for one bizarre penalty in the first half where he just hoofed it down field.

Yeah, I think he was trying to be Ruan on that one.

Edit - On that did you notice in the 1st half Ulster had won a penalty just outside their 22 and Ruan wanted to take his trademark quick amd I think it was Ruddock grabbed him and wouldn't let go of him. Streetwise stuff by Leinster. Just like McGrath pulling Henry back into a ruck and winning a penalty for Henry not moving away. You can tell Cullen is their coach!

I saw a few of those incidents e.g. Sexton holding onto Pienaar long after a tackle. It must become an offence at some point?

.ak · 21-05-2016 5:58pm

Ardillaun wrote: »

I saw a few of those incidents e.g. Sexton holding onto Pienaar long after a tackle. It must become an offence at some point?

Only if you get caught!

molloyjh · 21-05-2016 8:58pm

Ardillaun wrote: »

I saw a few of those incidents e.g. Sexton holding onto Pienaar long after a tackle. It must become an offence at some point?

Ah there's always stuff like that. Ulster went beyond rucks to prevent guys joining them and then held on to them for a bit to take them out of the game. It's not a professional game if you don't see that sort of stuff being attempted. It's down to the officials to call that kind of thing but Davies seemed to let a fair bit slide around the breakdown in particular. Don't think it was material in the end though, and in some ways it probably added to the game because we weren't stopping at every second ruck.

awec · 21-05-2016 9:08pm

molloyjh wrote: »

I think this obsession with wingers scoring tries is bizarre. The game has moved on and tries will come from all over these days. Leinster scored more tries than Ulster last night, none of which were scored by a winger. That goes to show you just how important having your wingers scoring tries is. In other words it's not. At all. It's important that your team are scoring tries.

Look back at that Drico try against Cardiff in the HEC QF in 2012. Fitz ran a perfect line to set it up. Are we going to knock the guy for not scoring the try himself or applaud him for his involvement in getting the score?

It just seems daft to obsess over strike rate in what is quite obviously a truly team sport. It's not like soccer where you have your striker whose primary job is to score goals. A winger is part of a unit. If the unit is scoring tries then who bloody cares as long as the winger is doing his bit to make it happen.

Non-wingers last night scored tries more than wingers. And the team that was able to get scores from more than just their wingers won. Spin Fitzys try count whatever way you want, he was excellent in that first 40 and that's the end of it.

A wingers job is to finish tries. A winger who cannot score tries is like a hooker who cannot hook. Saying we shouldn't obsess over it doesn't make sense. Should we not care when hookers fail to hook? When props fail to scrum? When lineout jumpers fail to win the ball? When 9s pass poorly?

Strike rate is a very valid metric to measure any winger against. I don't care how many tries my props score but a winger who doesn't score tries is at a disadvantage to one who does. Finishing is a fundemental job for a winger and it is Fitzgerald's biggest problem.

Can anyone name me some top quality wingers with a strike rate as poor as Fitzgerald's?

Nobody is saying he didn't have a good 40 minutes. I just would not be so dismissive of his try scoring problems. I would rather have wingers on my team who can score tries rather than wingers who can't.

Obviously they will not score every time they get the ball, but by and large they should be scoring a lot more tries than other positions on the pitch because really that's what they are there for. This is why it's pointless to look at it in isolation of one or two specific games, you have to look at the bigger picture. How does Fitzgerald stack up against other wingers over the course of a season, or a couple of seasons, or his entire career? He doesn't stack up too well when you look at his direct contribution to the scoreboard and that is the point. Great, he can break the line and pass to other players to score, but so can the other wingers who score a lot themselves too.

pickarooney · 21-05-2016 9:13pm

Fitzgerald is like the Emile Heskey of Leinster.

irishbucsfan · 21-05-2016 9:19pm

awec wrote: »

A wingers job is to finish tries.

Is it?

awec · 21-05-2016 9:20pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Is it?

Yes.

irishbucsfan · 21-05-2016 9:23pm

awec wrote: »

Yes.

Andrew Trimble must have been pretty brutal the last three seasons in that case.

thomond2006 · 21-05-2016 9:24pm

awec wrote: »

Yes.

So every attack must end in the winger's hands if this is your argument. Keith Earls only scored one try this season for Munster, is he a poor winger too?

pickarooney · 21-05-2016 9:26pm

PSA seemed to work off this logic. Whichever flavour of the month winger was scoring the most tries tended to get capped.

molloyjh · 21-05-2016 10:09pm

A wingers job was traditionally to finish tries. But things have changed. The game has changed. Traditionally forwards didn't have to worry about ball handling. If Leinster score 10 tries in a game does anyone care who scored them? Of course not. Some teams will still use their wingers to finish tries off. Gilroy and Healy are finishers. And that's fine. But in this day and age it really doesn't matter if the winger isn't dotting the ball down if they are facilitating the try being scored.

Comparing that to a hooker not hooking is just completely disingenuous. If a hooker doesn't hook then nobody else will. If a winger doesn't score there's still another 13 people who could. Apples and oranges.

Adbrowne · 21-05-2016 10:14pm

molloyjh wrote: »

A wingers job was traditionally to finish tries. But things have changed. The game has changed. Traditionally forwards didn't have to worry about ball handling. If Leinster score 10 tries in a game does anyone care who scored them? Of course not. Some teams will still use their wingers to finish tries off. Gilroy and Healy are finishers. And that's fine. But in this day and age it really doesn't matter if the winger isn't dotting the ball down if they are facilitating the try being scored.

Comparing that to a hooker not hooking is just completely disingenuous. If a hooker doesn't hook then nobody else will. If a winger doesn't score there's still another 13 people who could. Apples and oranges.

HEC final 2012. Not too many wingers scored that day. Is sexton the only back to score in a final for Leinster?

molloyjh · 21-05-2016 10:35pm

Adbrowne wrote: »

HEC final 2012. Not too many wingers scored that day. Is sexton the only back to score in a final for Leinster?

Very good point actually. Heaslip in 2009, Sexton & Hines in 2011, SOB & Healy & penalty try & VDM & Cronin in 2012 IIRC. No outside back, never mind winger, has ever scored a try for Leinster in a HEC final. It hasn't stopped us winning 3 of them.

In fact of all the 6 finals Leinster have won only 1 of them saw a winger score a try. The evidence is fairly overwhelming that wingers are not required to score tries by any means. Teams can be hugely successful without a winger scoring loads of tries. And if wingers don't need to score loads of tries then you're going to look for them to do other things. Tries scored these days is about as useful a metric as flankers scoring tries. It has a bearing, but it's not the be all and end all.

ionadnapokot · 21-05-2016 10:50pm

rugby hasn't changed that much that wingers aren't the ones most likely to score tries!
Luke Fitzgerald is prob the best all round winger in Ireland (when not injured or coming back from one). But you do need a finisher on every team and that is really not his forte.
Point of Order. Wingers are supposed to score 5 pointers!
In Every WC a winger has topped the try scoring charts.
For the last 6-7 seasons in the pro12, Top 14, Super Rugby, ERC Cup, 6N and Rugby Chmpionship 90%+ of the time the top try scorer in those competitions are wingers.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 21-05-2016 10:54pm

Just as a matter of interest, has every top scorer in the WC come from a SH team?

ionadnapokot · 21-05-2016 10:58pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest, has every top scorer in the WC come from a SH team?

French unmentionable and English unmentionable were joint top in 11
French lad tied with SH in 91

molloyjh · 21-05-2016 11:16pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

rugby hasn't changed that much that wingers aren't the ones most likely to score tries!
Luke Fitzgerald is prob the best all round winger in Ireland (when not injured or coming back from one). But you do need a finisher on every team and that is really not his forte.
Point of Order. Wingers are supposed to score 5 pointers!
In Every WC a winger has topped the try scoring charts.
For the last 6-7 seasons in the pro12, Top 14, Super Rugby, ERC Cup, 6N and Rugby Chmpionship 90%+ of the time the top try scorer in those competitions are wingers.

There's a difference between wingers being most likely to score and being required to as a major part of measuring their performance. If a winger breaks the line numerous times in every game and sets up at least 1 try a match but never actually scores one is he a bad winger? Of course not, and anyone who thinks that is just wrong. And that's not something I say lightly. A winger is a cog in a bigger machine. Often times he'll be the one in space to score due the the nature of the game but as long as he's doing his part to make sure the team is scoring it really doesn't matter one iota whether it's him or someone else getting the actual 5 pointers.

In 2011-12 when Leinster were at their peak and everyone was talking about how great they were playing only 3 of their 28 tries in the HEC came from wingers. 2 of which ironically came from Luke and the other from Nacewa. So 90% of Leinsters tries came from someone other than a winger. That pretty conclusively proves that wingers are not required to score tries in order to not just be successful, but also to play an attractive brand of rugby as well.

Some teams will use their wingers as finishers and others won't. If a winger is there to be a finisher then the tries scored metric is more important than if he isn't. And at Leinster we haven't really been using wingers as finishers in a while. It hasn't stopped us from being successful because it isn't a requirement for wingers to score tries.

ionadnapokot · 21-05-2016 11:37pm

molloyjh wrote: »

There's a difference between wingers being most likely to score and being required to as a major part of measuring their performance. If a winger breaks the line numerous times in every game and sets up at least 1 try a match but never actually scores one is he a bad winger? Of course not, and anyone who thinks that is just wrong. And that's not something I say lightly. A winger is a cog in a bigger machine. Often times he'll be the one in space to score due the the nature of the game but as long as he's doing his part to make sure the team is scoring it really doesn't matter one iota whether it's him or someone else getting the actual 5 pointers.

In 2011-12 when Leinster were at their peak and everyone was talking about how great they were playing only 3 of their 28 tries in the HEC came from wingers. 2 of which ironically came from Luke and the other from Nacewa. So 90% of Leinsters tries came from someone other than a winger. That pretty conclusively proves that wingers are not required to score tries in order to not just be successful, but also to play an attractive brand of rugby as well.

Some teams will use their wingers as finishers and others won't. If a winger is there to be a finisher then the tries scored metric is more important than if he isn't. And at Leinster we haven't really been using wingers as finishers in a while. It hasn't stopped us from being successful because it isn't a requirement for wingers to score tries.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make to me here?
I am obv tipping my hat to Luke Fitz performance in this match and his overall contributions as a winger. You like Fitz on the wing?
I pointed out that wingers have always been and continue to be the players on the pitch who will more than likely score. The game hasn't changed in that regard.

The Leinster example is explained in two words. Joe Schmidt! ....& Leicester final!

ionadnapokot · 21-05-2016 11:45pm

Just for the record, and I'm not been smart, but i do get that wingers don't just stand out in space on the wing trying to keep their gear clean, get on the end of a few passes and dot it down in the corner. Fix the hair and trot back over to the wing again!

irishbucsfan · 22-05-2016 12:37am

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make to me here?
I am obv tipping my hat to Luke Fitz performance in this match and his overall contributions as a winger. You like Fitz on the wing?
I pointed out that wingers have always been and continue to be the players on the pitch who will more than likely score. The game hasn't changed in that regard.

The Leinster example is explained in two words. Joe Schmidt! ....& Leicester final!

How is Joe Schmidt an example in that regard? Maybe I'm missing it

bilston · 22-05-2016 12:38am

FWIW 5 of Ireland's top 10 try scorers in history are wingers, 6 if you were to include Geordan Murphy who played a decent bit on the wing. Given three of those wingers are still currently playing, (Bowe, Trimble and Earls), it would suggest that our wingers still score plenty of tries. Of course some of Earls's tries will have come from the centre (Italy in the WC springs to mind for one).

irishbucsfan · 22-05-2016 12:51am

bilston wrote: »

FWIW 5 of Ireland's top 10 try scorers in history are wingers, 6 if you were to include Geordan Murphy who played a decent bit on the wing. Given three of those wingers are still currently playing, (Bowe, Trimble and Earls), it would suggest that our wingers still score plenty of tries. Of course some of Earls's tries will have come from the centre (Italy in the WC springs to mind for one).

Trimble played a chunk at center as well but yeah that's not very surprising. No one would argue wingers don't score quite often, but it doesn't mean it's always going to be the primary expectation of every winger.

ionadnapokot · 22-05-2016 8:17am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

How is Joe Schmidt an example in that regard? Maybe I'm missing it

Joe Schmidt defining role of the winger
"Ruck, Ruck and ruck some more. That's to key to scoring more"

Edit.....can't think of a rhyme for Contestable and Kick chase!

MarinersBlues · 22-05-2016 9:20am

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Joe Schmidt defining role of the winger
"Ruck, Ruck and ruck some more. That's to key to scoring more"

Edit.....can't think of a rhyme for Contestable and Kick chase!

Detestable and face

Yeah_Right · 22-05-2016 3:45pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Point of Order. Wingers are supposed to score 5 pointers!
In Every WC a winger has topped the try scoring charts.

Point of order: In two RWCs a centre and centre/FB have been joint top try scorers with a winger.

Ardillaun · 22-05-2016 9:51pm

So what are the stats of top international teams in this regard e.g. NZ, Oz? Are their wings no longer among the top try scorers on the team?

molloyjh · 22-05-2016 11:09pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make to me here?
I am obv tipping my hat to Luke Fitz performance in this match and his overall contributions as a winger. You like Fitz on the wing?
I pointed out that wingers have always been and continue to be the players on the pitch who will more than likely score. The game hasn't changed in that regard.

The Leinster example is explained in two words. Joe Schmidt! ....& Leicester final!

My point is a simple one. Using tries scored as a definitive metric for a winger like awec was isn't a true measure of a wingers quality. A winger doesn't have to score tries to be a good winger. Not anymore at least.

ionadnapokot · 23-05-2016 7:20am

molloyjh wrote: »

My point is a simple one. Using tries scored as a definitive metric for a winger like awec was isn't a true measure of a wingers quality. A winger doesn't have to score tries to be a good winger. Not anymore at least.

& I doubt many, if any, would argue against Fitz start in on the wing for Leinster, or Ireland based on that performance.
I do feel it's definitely his best position

MattD · 23-05-2016 11:36am

So we'll just start Sean Cronin and Jamie Heaslip on the wings then!

Leinstertainment reigns once again!

CatFromHue · 23-05-2016 2:11pm

Stephen Ferris

ESPN have gotten very exact on the player details nowadays

Isikeli Kurimavua Nacewa(5') James Peter Richard Heaslip(48') Sean M. Cronin(65')
Jonathan Jeremiah Sexton(6', 49', 66')
Jonathan Jeremiah Sexton(11', 16', 57')

Craig James Hunter Gilroy(39', 70')
David Patrick Lindsay James Jackson(70')
David Patrick Lindsay James Jackson(27', 32')

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/playerstats?gameId=269549&league=270557

Buer · 23-05-2016 2:13pm

Hunter and Lindsay?

No wonder they're mentally weak.

irishbucsfan · 23-05-2016 2:16pm

Sean Cronin's middle name is actually M.

After the Bond character I presume.

Pro 12 semi final - Leinster v Ulster 20/05/2016, 19:45. Live on Sky, TG4, BBCNI

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