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Pro 12 semi final - Leinster v Ulster 20/05/2016, 19:45. Live on Sky, TG4, BBCNI

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    #302
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,931 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    bilston wrote: »
    The question I have is why does Fitzgerald not score more tries? Is he just unlucky? Is he a poor finisher? Is it the way the teams he plays in go about their business? He has played mostly in Schmidt coached teams and we know Joe has his own views on what a winger should bring to the party so maybe that is something to do with it.

    Very possible. This point has been made a number of times in regards to Irish wingers. They don't have a lot to do, in an attacking sense, in the Irish team, so players that would be considered average in other countries/systems rack up considerable playing time. Trimble looked a mile off the pace in the 6 nations but defensively he's a big unit and offers more in that respect than someone like Gilroy or Matt Healy might.
    Fitzgerald seems like the kind of winger that could do an awful lot more than he's ever asked to do. His try against Argentina in the WC is a perfect example. He pretty much made that one himself, if I'm remembering it correctly. At the same time I can see the benefit of having the whole team on the same page at all times. A winger makes a break that takes his own team by surprise and the ball ends up getting turned over, not a good look.


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    #303
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,931 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    former total wrote: »
    I was really impressed with Reddan's kicking last night and it's not always his strongest suit.

    He's still second choice for Ireland, I'd be pretty sure of that.

    Is Murray injured or was it just a precautionary substitution in the last Munster match?


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    #304
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,051 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    bilston wrote: »
    The question I have is why does Fitzgerald not score more tries? Is he just unlucky? Is he a poor finisher? Is it the way the teams he plays in go about their business? He has played mostly in Schmidt coached teams and we know Joe has his own views on what a winger should bring to the party so maybe that is something to do with it.

    None of the Leinster wingers seem to score many. With Fitz, if he keeps playing like he did last night then I don't care, he makes a huge difference to the team when fit and in form.


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    #305
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,557 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    None of the Leinster wingers seem to score many. With Fitz, if he keeps playing like he did last night then I don't care, he makes a huge difference to the team when fit and in form.

    Nacewa has 9, second only to Gilroy in the pro12 try scoring table.


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    #306
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    Nacewa has 9, second only to Gilroy in the pro12 try scoring table.

    Our wingers have generally not scored many tries going all the way back to the Schmidt days. Just the way we play really. Fitzgerald actually was a very regular try scorer in his first couple of seasons and ended up going on the Lions tour in 2009 based on that, in fact was a test Lion starting on the left wing. After that Leinster changed.


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    #307
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Keith Earls only scored 1 try this season for Munster FWIW.


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    #308
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,931 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    awec wrote: »
    Nacewa has 9, second only to Gilroy in the pro12 try scoring table.

    How many of Nacewa's tries have come from the wing?


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    #309
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,200 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »
    How many of Nacewa's tries have come from the wing?

    4. Zebre, Treviso, Cardiff and Munster.

    Only the Treviso and Cardiff tries were scored with him actually in the position of a winger though.


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    #310
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Our wingers have generally not scored many tries going all the way back to the Schmidt days. Just the way we play really. Fitzgerald actually was a very regular try scorer in his first couple of seasons and ended up going on the Lions tour in 2009 based on that, in fact was a test Lion starting on the left wing. After that Leinster changed.

    I'm a big Fitzgerald fan and for me he's a cert for the 11 Irish jersey, but I do wonder if Irish wingers not being prolific try scorers contributes to our lacklustre attacking efforts.


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    #311
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    I think this obsession with wingers scoring tries is bizarre. The game has moved on and tries will come from all over these days. Leinster scored more tries than Ulster last night, none of which were scored by a winger. That goes to show you just how important having your wingers scoring tries is. In other words it's not. At all. It's important that your team are scoring tries.

    Look back at that Drico try against Cardiff in the HEC QF in 2012. Fitz ran a perfect line to set it up. Are we going to knock the guy for not scoring the try himself or applaud him for his involvement in getting the score?

    It just seems daft to obsess over strike rate in what is quite obviously a truly team sport. It's not like soccer where you have your striker whose primary job is to score goals. A winger is part of a unit. If the unit is scoring tries then who bloody cares as long as the winger is doing his bit to make it happen.

    Non-wingers last night scored tries more than wingers. And the team that was able to get scores from more than just their wingers won. Spin Fitzys try count whatever way you want, he was excellent in that first 40 and that's the end of it.


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    #312
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Bazzo wrote: »
    I'm a big Fitzgerald fan and for me he's a cert for the 11 Irish jersey, but I do wonder if Irish wingers not being prolific try scorers contributes to our lacklustre attacking efforts.

    When Leinster were at their peak their wingers weren't the main source of their tries either. I don't think it's relevant tbh.


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    #313
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,291 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Bazzo wrote: »
    I'm a big Fitzgerald fan and for me he's a cert for the 11 Irish jersey, but I do wonder if Irish wingers not being prolific try scorers contributes to our lacklustre attacking efforts.

    I think it's the other way round

    Our attacking patterns don't lend themselves towards prolific wing tries.

    We seem to end up with more back row scorers than other comparable teams, but maybe that's just my skewed vision.


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    #314
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,931 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    Bazzo wrote: »
    I'm a big Fitzgerald fan and for me he's a cert for the 11 Irish jersey, but I do wonder if Irish wingers not being prolific try scorers contributes to our lacklustre attacking efforts.

    There are try scoring wingers available to the Irish team though. Gilroy and Healy (tied with Isa) are the top 2 try scorers in the Pro12 this season, so far. Gilroy and Zebo were 2 and 3 last season.
    If we wanted to play try scoring wingers just because they score tries we could.


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    #315
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,314 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Oh god another debate about Irish wingers, great.


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    #316
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,931 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    salmocab wrote: »
    Oh god another debate about Irish wingers, great.

    It's not a debate, it's a discussion.


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    #317
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,314 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    oh god another discussion about Irish wingers, great.


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    #318
    TICKLE_ME_ELMO
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 23,931 Mod ✭✭✭✭TICKLE_ME_ELMO


    salmocab wrote: »
    oh god another discussion about Irish wingers, great.

    Imagine, on a website made for discussion too.


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    #319
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Garry Bastareaud put in some good hits yesterday.


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    #320
    Ardillaun
    Registered Users Posts: 2,550 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    bilston wrote: »
    awec wrote: »
    Reddan's kicking was great except for one bizarre penalty in the first half where he just hoofed it down field.

    Yeah, I think he was trying to be Ruan on that one.

    Edit - On that did you notice in the 1st half Ulster had won a penalty just outside their 22 and Ruan wanted to take his trademark quick amd I think it was Ruddock grabbed him and wouldn't let go of him. Streetwise stuff by Leinster. Just like McGrath pulling Henry back into a ruck and winning a penalty for Henry not moving away. You can tell Cullen is their coach!

    I saw a few of those incidents e.g. Sexton holding onto Pienaar long after a tackle. It must become an offence at some point?


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    #321
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Ardillaun wrote: »
    I saw a few of those incidents e.g. Sexton holding onto Pienaar long after a tackle. It must become an offence at some point?

    Only if you get caught!


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    #322
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Ardillaun wrote: »
    I saw a few of those incidents e.g. Sexton holding onto Pienaar long after a tackle. It must become an offence at some point?

    Ah there's always stuff like that. Ulster went beyond rucks to prevent guys joining them and then held on to them for a bit to take them out of the game. It's not a professional game if you don't see that sort of stuff being attempted. It's down to the officials to call that kind of thing but Davies seemed to let a fair bit slide around the breakdown in particular. Don't think it was material in the end though, and in some ways it probably added to the game because we weren't stopping at every second ruck.


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    #323
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,557 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    molloyjh wrote: »
    I think this obsession with wingers scoring tries is bizarre. The game has moved on and tries will come from all over these days. Leinster scored more tries than Ulster last night, none of which were scored by a winger. That goes to show you just how important having your wingers scoring tries is. In other words it's not. At all. It's important that your team are scoring tries.

    Look back at that Drico try against Cardiff in the HEC QF in 2012. Fitz ran a perfect line to set it up. Are we going to knock the guy for not scoring the try himself or applaud him for his involvement in getting the score?

    It just seems daft to obsess over strike rate in what is quite obviously a truly team sport. It's not like soccer where you have your striker whose primary job is to score goals. A winger is part of a unit. If the unit is scoring tries then who bloody cares as long as the winger is doing his bit to make it happen.

    Non-wingers last night scored tries more than wingers. And the team that was able to get scores from more than just their wingers won. Spin Fitzys try count whatever way you want, he was excellent in that first 40 and that's the end of it.

    A wingers job is to finish tries. A winger who cannot score tries is like a hooker who cannot hook. Saying we shouldn't obsess over it doesn't make sense. Should we not care when hookers fail to hook? When props fail to scrum? When lineout jumpers fail to win the ball? When 9s pass poorly?

    Strike rate is a very valid metric to measure any winger against. I don't care how many tries my props score but a winger who doesn't score tries is at a disadvantage to one who does. Finishing is a fundemental job for a winger and it is Fitzgerald's biggest problem.

    Can anyone name me some top quality wingers with a strike rate as poor as Fitzgerald's?

    Nobody is saying he didn't have a good 40 minutes. I just would not be so dismissive of his try scoring problems. I would rather have wingers on my team who can score tries rather than wingers who can't.

    Obviously they will not score every time they get the ball, but by and large they should be scoring a lot more tries than other positions on the pitch because really that's what they are there for. This is why it's pointless to look at it in isolation of one or two specific games, you have to look at the bigger picture. How does Fitzgerald stack up against other wingers over the course of a season, or a couple of seasons, or his entire career? He doesn't stack up too well when you look at his direct contribution to the scoreboard and that is the point. Great, he can break the line and pass to other players to score, but so can the other wingers who score a lot themselves too.


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    #324
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Fitzgerald is like the Emile Heskey of Leinster.


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    #325
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    A wingers job is to finish tries.

    Is it?


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    #326
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,557 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Is it?

    Yes.


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    #327
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    Yes.

    Andrew Trimble must have been pretty brutal the last three seasons in that case.


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    #328
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    awec wrote: »
    Yes.

    So every attack must end in the winger's hands if this is your argument. Keith Earls only scored one try this season for Munster, is he a poor winger too?


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    #329
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,266 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    PSA seemed to work off this logic. Whichever flavour of the month winger was scoring the most tries tended to get capped.


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    #330
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    A wingers job was traditionally to finish tries. But things have changed. The game has changed. Traditionally forwards didn't have to worry about ball handling. If Leinster score 10 tries in a game does anyone care who scored them? Of course not. Some teams will still use their wingers to finish tries off. Gilroy and Healy are finishers. And that's fine. But in this day and age it really doesn't matter if the winger isn't dotting the ball down if they are facilitating the try being scored.

    Comparing that to a hooker not hooking is just completely disingenuous. If a hooker doesn't hook then nobody else will. If a winger doesn't score there's still another 13 people who could. Apples and oranges.


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    #331
    Adbrowne
    Site Banned Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭Adbrowne


    molloyjh wrote: »
    A wingers job was traditionally to finish tries. But things have changed. The game has changed. Traditionally forwards didn't have to worry about ball handling. If Leinster score 10 tries in a game does anyone care who scored them? Of course not. Some teams will still use their wingers to finish tries off. Gilroy and Healy are finishers. And that's fine. But in this day and age it really doesn't matter if the winger isn't dotting the ball down if they are facilitating the try being scored.

    Comparing that to a hooker not hooking is just completely disingenuous. If a hooker doesn't hook then nobody else will. If a winger doesn't score there's still another 13 people who could. Apples and oranges.

    HEC final 2012. Not too many wingers scored that day. Is sexton the only back to score in a final for Leinster?


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