Why do you hate Irish?

thattequilagirl

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Another figure plucked from nowhere. It's barely above 1% of the population which seems small for a supposed national language.

It's not a figure plucked from nowhere, it's roughly the number of leaving cert students who sat ordinary or honours level Irish exams, which involve the testing of oral, aural and written fluency

ancapailldorcha

thattequilagirl wrote: »

It's not a figure plucked from nowhere, it's roughly the number of leaving cert students who sat ordinary or honours level Irish exams, which involve the testing of oral, aural and written fluency

Which the vast majority will completely forget in a matter of months.

Wibbs

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's a waste because the vast majority of the population is not fluent.

This is my problem with it too. It has become very expensive cultural window dressing. As a project to revive the language it has failed miserably. In this centenary year it's sobering to reflect that there were far more fluent Irish speakers as the GPO was being shelled to hell than there are today even with what must be billions spent in the interim.

Comparisons to other minority languages are often dragged out in support of the Irish experiment, but for me such examples say much and not much that supports the idea that we have anything beyond a lip service attachment to the language. Look at Basque. In Spain it was hammered for centuries and under Franco was aggressively stamped out. To the degree that at one point it was illegal to give your kid a Basque name. Post Franco the uptake of the language took off and consolidated. Indeed I've heard more Basque spoken on the streets of northern Spain in a couple of weeks holidays than I've heard Irish in my entire life living here. Look at how fast the various languages of the former Soviet Union nations sprang back after many decades of Russian being forced on them from birth.

Since the foundation of the state the language was a positive advantage to have in life. It opened doors in government and the public service. We were "taught" it from our first schooldays and yet…

The fact is we simply don't care enough about the language and until that changes then all the money in the world won't increase the levels of the language in everyday life.

thattequilagirl

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Which the vast majority will completely forget in a matter of months.

If they're anything like me, they'll also forget most of the math, geography, and French they were taught. That proves nothing.

ancapailldorcha

thattequilagirl wrote: »

If they're anything like me, they'll also forget most of the math, geography, and French they were taught. That proves nothing.

It speaks volumes that the pro-compulsory Irish brigade needs to continually deflect like this. We have a centralised, state-controlled education system. Until personalised education attains widespread coverage then the best approach is to have children learn subjects based on probability of employment and career prospects. I don't use woodwork, technical drawing or French but I'm extremely glad that I studied those subjects as they contain transferable skills. Irish has none whereas learning a modern language has several.

recipio

The teaching of Irish gets more funding than any other language. There are about 4000 Irish teachers. This is a direct legacy of the Nationalist agenda started in earnest by DeValera in the 1930s and has been a rite of passage to State jobs ever since.
In fact, English has been out native language since about 1850 and the greatest asset of the millions we have lost to emigration.
I resent the enforced teaching of Irish and its role in accessing the inner sanctum of State administration.
It is time to de-politicise the role of Irish in our society and divert funds to boosting badly needed European literacy.;)

Wibbs

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It speaks volumes that the pro-compulsory Irish brigade needs to continually deflect like this.

Indeed. Comparing maths(with an s Dammit >< ) and geography and the loss of same post schooling with what is supposed to be our "native language" always seems utterly daft an argument to me.

We have a centralised, state-controlled education system. Until personalised education attains widespread coverage then the best approach is to have children learn subjects based on probability of employment and career prospects.

This is where we might drift apart on the details. Probability of employment and career prospects should not be the sole concern of education. We as a society should not be in the business of just building cubicle fodder for industry and commerce. Man does not live by bread alone.

thattequilagirl

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It speaks volumes that the pro-compulsory Irish brigade needs to continually deflect like this. We have a centralised, state-controlled education system. Until personalised education attains widespread coverage then the best approach is to have children learn subjects based on probability of employment and career prospects. I don't use woodwork, technical drawing or French but I'm extremely glad that I studied those subjects as they contain transferable skills. Irish has none whereas learning a modern language has several.

Firstly, I've addressed every point you have made directly. I don't think you actually understand what the word deflection means. How come it's deflection if I talk about what I studied and how it applies, but it's acceptable for you to talk about what you studied and how it applies?

Your posts across this thread have been a medley of contradictions.

Secondly, as I've consistently said through the almost 90 pages of this thread, Irish should be optional for the leaving cert.

Insect Overlord

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It speaks volumes that the pro-compulsory Irish brigade needs to continually deflect like this. We have a centralised, state-controlled education system. Until personalised education attains widespread coverage then the best approach is to have children learn subjects based on probability of employment and career prospects. I don't use woodwork, technical drawing or French but I'm extremely glad that I studied those subjects as they contain transferable skills. Irish has none whereas learning a modern language has several.

Irish is a modern language. It's just not a Romance language. As for transferable skills, language learning is a skill in itself. Picking up on how languages and codes are ordered and structured, how shifts of subjects and objects and focus can influence how a message is interpreted, how language can be used to educate, entertain, deceive, and enlighten (often at the same time), all useful skills.

Alas! most people seem to fail to master these in English, never mind in second or subsequent languages.

ancapailldorcha

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed. Comparing maths(with an s Dammit >< ) and geography and the loss of same post schooling with what is supposed to be our "native language" always seems utterly daft an argument to me.

Especially when we have multinationals in need of people with STEM skills. Utter madness.

Wibbs wrote: »

Probability of employment and career prospects should not be the sole concern of education. We as a society should not be in the business of just building cubicle fodder for industry and commerce. Man does not live by bread alone.

Fair point. I didn't say that it should be the sole concern however I do think that it should be the primary concern. I do think that it is important that children learn about their culture as a whole even though you'll not find such info listed in job specs. However, it needs to be properly taught and de-politicised.

Carlos Orange

thattequilagirl wrote: »

It's not a figure plucked from nowhere, it's roughly the number of leaving cert students who sat ordinary or honours level Irish exams, which involve the testing of oral, aural and written fluency

Maybe things have changed since I did my leaving cert but passing the leaving cert Irish exam (or any of its sub components) is hardly an indication of fluency.

Iwasfrozen

An File wrote: »

Irish is a modern language. It's just not a Romance language. As for transferable skills, language learning is a skill in itself. Picking up on how languages and codes are ordered and structured, how shifts of subjects and objects and focus can influence how a message is interpreted, how language can be used to educate, entertain, deceive, and enlighten (often at the same time), all useful skills.

Alas! most people seem to fail to master these in English, never mind in second or subsequent languages.

All of which can be acquired from leatning a useful modern language. With the added benefit of actually being able to speak to people you couldn't previously.

Regardless this is all just your opinion, make Irish an optional subject and I couldn't give a toss what you learn. Irish will never be the language of Ireland in any meaningful sense again. Give up the crusade brother.

thattequilagirl

psinno wrote: »

Maybe things have changed since I did my leaving cert but passing the leaving cert Irish exam (or any of its sub components) is hardly an indication of fluency.

How else would you test fluency other than with exams that cover speaking, listening, reading, writing and comprehension?

Dughorm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Irish will never be the language of Ireland in any meaningful sense again. Give up the crusade brother.

Not in an exclusive "Irish only" sense - that's a certainty.

Again that's not the aim (except CnaG according to ShepDog!) bi-lingualism is more like it.

Why would you not like to live in a bilingual English-Irish society?

There are wonderful programmes on TG4 that mix English and Irish seamlessly.

Anyone else notice how a lot of the government agencies/semi-states have changed their Irish language name to English ones? Iarnród Éireann, Bord Failte, Bord Gais, Bord na gCon etc....

Iwasfrozen

Dughorm wrote: »

Not in an exclusive "Irish only" sense - that's a certainty.

Again that's not the aim (except CnaG according to ShepDog!) bi-lingualism is more like it.

Why would you not like to live in a bilingual English-Irish society?

There are wonderful programmes on TG4 that mix English and Irish seamlessly.

Anyone else notice how a lot of the government agencies/semi-states have changed their Irish language name to English ones? Iarnród Éireann, Bord Failte, Bord Gais, Bord na gCon etc....

Not even in the sense of the majority speaking two languages, that's not going to happen.

I don't want or not want to live in an Irish English bilingual country. As long as the language is optional in school and we aren't spending taxpayers money on it I'm neutral to its death or revival.

Besides the language has no hope of catching on until a standard spoken dialect is adopted. That should have been step one, I don't know why it hasn't happened yet.

Wibbs

Dughorm wrote: »

Anyone else notice how a lot of the government agencies/semi-states have changed their Irish language name to English ones? Iarnród Éireann, Bord Failte, Bord Gais, Bord na gCon etc....

As I said cultural window dressing.

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

Again that's not the aim (except CnaG according to ShepDog! , according to its constitution, and declared on its website in its mission statement)

Fixed that for you.

CnaG claims to represent all Irish speakers and enthusuasts.

ancapailldorcha

Dughorm wrote: »

Why would you not like to live in a bilingual English-Irish society?

It's a utopian idea with no thought given to how this might happen aside from "throw more money at it."

Dughorm wrote: »

There are wonderful programmes on TG4 that mix English and Irish seamlessly.

I can't get TG4. However, the last time I saw it it was showing regional sports matches and Westerns in English.

Dughorm wrote: »

Anyone else notice how a lot of the government agencies/semi-states have changed their Irish language name to English ones? Iarnród Éireann, Bord Failte, Bord Gais, Bord na gCon etc....

While marketing and communicating in English. As Wibbs said, meaningless cultural window dressing.

Dughorm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I can't get TG4. However, the last time I saw it it was showing regional sports matches and Westerns in English.

Fixed

TG4 Player is available worldwide on their website with no restrictions.

If you are interested in what I am talking about they have some good travel shows on it at the moment - Route 1 in the USA and two girls touring around Europe couchsurfing.

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

Why would you not like to live in a bilingual English-Irish society?

Because that's CnaG trojan horse for 'reinstate Irish as common tongue of Ireland'. Their constitution and web site makes makes it very clear that that is their ultimate goal.

There's no reason why people need to speak both Irish and English. We really need to understand why English speakers with no family background of Irish-speaking, start self-identifying as 'Gaelgeoir'.

Iwasfrozen

Shep_Dog wrote: »

Because that's CnaG trojan horse for 'reinstate Irish as common tongue of Ireland'. Their constitution and web site makes makes it very clear that that is their ultimate goal.

There's no reason why people need to speak both Irish and English. We really need to understand why English speakers with no family background of Irish-speaking, start self-identifying as 'Gaelgeoir'.

Where do CnaG get their funding? As they are a lobby group I'd like to know.

maryishere

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I have an issue with paying tax for it when there's no end of better uses for the revenue. I have an issue with it being forced down children's throats with the sole aim of enriching the Irish language lobby. Ireland has been a self-governing republic for nearly 85 years now, 95 if you include the W.T. Cosgrave years. The English aren't responsible for its demise, the Irish language lobby is.

+1. It should not be forced down kids throats in school.

Shep_Dog

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Where do CnaG get their funding? As they are a lobby group I'd like to know.

They got a lot of funding from the state.

They have registered as a lobby group but the details of their activities are given in Irish only.

Many of members of this radical group have infiltrated government and education, so there could be question of 'sock puppetery' in their lobbying and the ethics of their employment in sensitive positions.

Iwasfrozen

Shep_Dog wrote: »

They got a lot of funding from the state.

They have registered as a lobby group but the details of their activities are given in Irish only.

Many of members of this radical group have infiltrated government and education, so there could be question of 'sock puppetery' in their lobbying and the ethics of their employment in sensitive positions.

Where do they get the rest?I don't know why the government would give money to a group known to blackmail government.

Shep_Dog

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Where do they get the rest?I don't know why the government would give money to a group known to blackmail government.

You need to read up on 'sock puppets'. It's a topical subject in the UK at present, where the government there is proposing to clamp down on political activities by charities it funds

The Institute for Economic Affairs says this of the practice:

State-funded charities and NGOs usually campaign for causes which do not enjoy widespread support amongst the general public (e.g. foreign aid, temperance, identity politics). They typically lobby for bigger government, higher taxes, greater regulation and the creation of new agencies to oversee and enforce new laws. In many cases, they call for increased funding for themselves and their associated departments.

I think that imposing Irish on the general population would meet the description of 'causes which do not enjoy widespread support amongst the general public'.

thattequilagirl

Shep_Dog wrote: »

They got a lot of funding from the state.

They have registered as a lobby group but the details of their activities are given in Irish only.

Many of members of this radical group have infiltrated government and education, so there could be question of 'sock puppetery' in their lobbying and the ethics of their employment in sensitive positions.

Radical group? 🙄

xannax

I'm not from this country. I'm not good with languages but it's forced on me whereas I'd rather do French and English because they are useful and spoken languages and a subject I was good at and interested in over Irish. It's not widely spoken at all in the country and I will never speak a word of it once I leave school, not that I'll be able to either considering how badly it's taught.

Iwasfrozen

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Radical group? 🙄

Certainly, any group whose objective is to change a country's language is radical.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Radical group? 🙄

Well, they want to force a massive change and upheaval upon an entire nation without actually taking the time to consult said nation first.

Dughorm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Well, they want to force a massive change and upheaval upon an entire nation without actually taking the time to consult said nation first.

What lobby group does?

Did SIMI consult the nation before lobbying for 131 Plates to be introduced to save car sales from superstition?