Why do you hate Irish?

osarusan

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

People do volunteer for things they're passionate about.

Ah come on, the number would be miniscule compared to current exposure and access.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

And the current state of affairs is? People leave school fed up of it.

The current state of affairs is terrible, but as far as Irish-language education is concerned, the alternatives are worse.

I think that is what people need to understand. The place of Irish in the curriculum didn't develop from a 'what do children need for a good education?' perspective, it came about from a 'what do we need to do to keep Irish alive?' perspective.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I've come to believe that this is pure fantasy. The same vested interests profiting from the current status quo will be reluctant to accept any form of accountability and, let's be clear here, this is the fundamental problem.

What is pure fantasy? That the standard of spoken Irish could by improved by revising the curriculum - that's hardly fantasy.

It's fantasy that the curriculum will ever be revised in the way I suggested? Yeah, that's closer to the truth*, although there have been some very welcome changes at primary school level.

*and it's one of the few examples of how they really have shot themselves in the foot - there is a real reluctance to allow Irish be taught (and therefore conceived of in teaching) as a 'foreign' language like French or German, and that has had an impact on how it's taught.

Having said that though, the real problems are when students leave school, and the issue of actual use of the language.

Shurimgreat

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

When I think of all the time wasted.... I know people who wanted to be Doctors and Pharmacists that had to train abroad because foreign educators assign the true worth to the language, ie none.

And yet the vast majority of Irish doctors and pharmacists went through the Irish education system and achieved high grades in all subjects including Irish. Which blows another of your arguments clean out of the water.

Its not an either/or. Good students are good students across the board. Bad students are bad students across the board. If people put time into Irish, the likelihood is they put time into every subject.

And people who put little or no time into Irish generally do the same across the board.

You naively believe (or else to serve your agenda) that everyone will attain brilliant Leaving Cert results overnight if Irish was abolished as a mandatory subject. I have news for you, they wouldn't. Most people would get similar results.

Irish consumes nowhere near the amount of time as honours English or honours maths, and if anyone feels Irish gets in their way, they can drop to pass Irish, put in a few days study and they will pass their leaving. Pass Irish is not the most difficult.

ancapailldorcha

osarusan wrote: »

Ah come on, the number would be miniscule compared to current exposure and access.

I disagree.

osarusan wrote: »

The current state of affairs is terrible, but as far as Irish-language education is concerned, the alternatives are worse.

I fail to see how. The current system breeds resentment. That's the worst thing I can imagine for it.

osarusan wrote: »

I think that is what people need to understand. The place of Irish in the curriculum didn't develop from a 'what do children need for a good education?' perspective, it came about from a 'what do we need to do to keep Irish alive?' perspective.

No, it came from a lack of accountability and government cronyism.

osarusan wrote: »

What is pure fantasy? That the standard of spoken Irish could by improved by revising the curriculum - that's hardly fantasy.

It's fantasy that the curriculum will ever be revised in the way I suggested? Yeah, that's closer to the truth, although there have been some very welcome changes at primary school level.

No, that the curriculum can be changed. Teachers Unions among others will fight tooth and nail against any improvement in our education system.

ancapailldorcha

Shurimgreat wrote: »

And yet the vast majority of Irish doctors and pharmacists went through the Irish education system and achieved high grades in all subjects including Irish. Which blows another of your arguments clean out of the water.

And vast numbers emigrated.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Its not an either/or. Good students are good students across the board. Bad students are bad students across the board. If people put time into Irish, the likelihood is they put time into every subject.

You can't be serious. Do you not know that people show aptitude for different things; art, numbers, logic, etc?

Shurimgreat wrote: »

And people who put little or no time into Irish generally do the same across the board.

Looks like you were serious.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

You naively believe (or else to serve your agenda) that everyone will attain brilliant Leaving Cert results overnight if Irish was abolished as a mandatory subject. I have news for you, they wouldn't. Most people would get similar results.

Of course they would. But your will seems to be more important.

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Irish consumes nowhere near the amount of time as honours English or honours maths, and if anyone feels Irish gets in their way, they can drop to pass Irish, put in a few days study and they will pass their leaving. Pass Irish is not the most difficult.

Yes, it does. More so for many as some people have to pay grinds.

Shurimgreat

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The last few posts you've made on this thread have been vacuous deflections. You can't argue in favour of compulsory Irish so instead you try to shift the goalposts.

But, yes. Compulsory Irish is here to stay based on the showing the special interests brigade when someone dared to moot the idea of making optional for the Leaving Cert. As a result, there will be a skills shortage, people will emigrate, Irish Universities will slip in rank and so on. Ah sure, but it's our culture.

And you can't say anything without mentioning special interests. Blaming the skills shortage on Irish alone just demonstrates your rock bottom IQ!

I think we are pretty much done.

Dughorm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

When I think of all the time wasted.... I know people who wanted to be Doctors and Pharmacists that had to train abroad because foreign educators assign the true worth to the language, ie none.

I don't get this argument? It is the points race that determines whether Doctors and Pharmacists get to study in Ireland not the Irish language?

ancapailldorcha

Dughorm wrote: »

I don't get this argument? It is the points race that determines whether Doctors and Pharmacists get to study in Ireland not the Irish language?

And if they get a poor result in Irish then their chances of getting onto a course they want are scuppered.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dughorm wrote: »

I don't get this argument? It is the points race that determines whether Doctors and Pharmacists get to study in Ireland not the Irish language?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a certain grade in Irish is a requirement for third level medical courses.

Also, if a student has no interest in Irsh, but excels in an alternative subject - let them do the alternative subject and get more points in it, no?

Dughorm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

And if they get a poor result in Irish then their chances of getting onto a course they want are scuppered.

Hardly.

There's a reason why students study more than 6 subjects.

You could apply that logic to English, Maths or the European Language they choose to study. Totally irrelevant argument.

Dughorm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a certain grade in Irish is a requirement for third level medical courses.

Like there is to pass English, Maths, French etc... for any university course to my knowledge. Not an "Irish" specific argument.

ancapailldorcha

Dughorm wrote: »

Hardly.

There's a reason why students study more than 6 subjects.

You could apply that logic to English, Maths or the European Language they choose to study. Totally irrelevant argument.

Honours maths is notoriously difficult and a requirement for many courses.

Again, the attitude seems to be "I have my way so deal with it".

Dughorm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Again, the attitude seems to be "I have my way so deal with it".

No the attitude is - this is a specious argument to target Irish and blame it for the brain-drain in this country!

ancapailldorcha

Dughorm wrote: »

No the attitude is - this is a specious argument to target Irish and blame it for the brain-drain in this country!

I would have thought that highlighting flaws in our education system was a perfect way to understand the brain drain.

osarusan

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I disagree.

Seriously, you have to concede that there is no way that passionate volunteers will ever come close to the access and funding that the government sets aside for Irish language maintenance.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I fail to see how. The current system breeds resentment. That's the worst thing I can imagine for it.

If the majority opted out of Irish whenever that option because available, how would later life proficiency in Irish compare to current numbers and levels?

they'd be as indifferent to is as they are to Russian.

Does it matter if people feel indifference or resentment? If they're not speaking it, they're not speaking it.

Teachers Unions among others will fight tooth and nail against any improvement in our education system.

Not really, that's too broad a statement. There have been plenty of positive changes made across our education system.

In terms of Irish language education, there is a group which will fight tooth and nail against changes, but those improvements would only be improvements on your terms, not theirs.

Dughorm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I would have thought that highlighting flaws in our education system was a perfect way to understand the brain drain.

So Irish for all in schools is driving young graduates out of the country once they're qualified? Is that your argument?

ancapailldorcha

Dughorm wrote: »

So Irish for all in schools is driving young graduates out of the country once they're qualified? Is that your argument?

I would argue that compulsory Irish prevents pupils from reaching their full potential and as such constitutes a significant part of the reason for our high emigration levels.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dughorm wrote: »

Like there is to pass English, Maths, French etc... for any university course to my knowledge. Not an "Irish" specific argument.

No idea. Like I said, open to correction.

There seems to be a certain amount of distraction here - as soon as someone points out Irish, you tend to say "what about English? What about Maths?". Fine - drop them as requirements as well. I don't believe you should need any of those subjects to enter third level college as long as you have the points requirement and can read and write.

So we should drop all subjects as compulsory and as specific non-essential requirements to third level. Agreed?

Sleepy

It's just strawman after strawman with the pro-Irish posters here.

There hasn't been a single solid argument made for maintaining Irish as a mandatory subject.

We get it, you like Irish. No one's ever said that you shouldn't be allowed to learn it. What's been said (repeatedly, and with no counter-argument ever actually been made) is that you shouldn't be allowed to force it on others.

Insect Overlord

Christ, it's like groundhog day in here. Pointless trying to talk to some of ye. Your minds are already made up.

thattequilagirl

Sleepy wrote: »

It's just strawman after strawman with the pro-Irish posters here.

There hasn't been a single solid argument made for maintaining Irish as a mandatory subject.

We get it, you like Irish. No one's ever said that you shouldn't be allowed to learn it. What's been said (repeatedly, and with no counter-argument ever actually been made) is that you shouldn't be allowed to force it on others.

Not all the pro-Irish posters here are arguing for mandatory Irish.

Iwasfrozen

An File wrote: »

Christ, it's like groundhog day in here. Pointless trying to talk to some of ye. Your minds are already made up.

Ditto. All we want is optional Irish. The way some people are acting here you'd think we want to ban it.

Caoimhgh1n

I am open to Irish becoming optional after junior certificate, along with every other subject, as people get a good feel for subjects during the Junior Cert.

thattequilagirl

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

I am open to Irish becoming optional after junior certificate, along with every other subject, as people get a good feel for subjects during the Junior Cert.

Yeah. Like I probably knew all the maths I need to know in my say to day life by sixth class. There's no particular reason why I should have done it for the leaving. It's the only subject I struggled with and the only subject I did a pass paper in.

Maybe a move toward the English A-level system where you do fewer subjects but you study them more in depth is what we need. Nothing mandatory, study a small number of subjects based on what you're hoping to do at university.

Caoimhgh1n

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Yeah. Like I probably knew all the maths I need to know in my say to day life by sixth class. There's no particular reason why I should have done it for the leaving. It's the only subject I struggled with and the only subject I did a pass paper in.

Maybe a move toward the English A-level system where you do fewer subjects but you study them more in depth is what we need. Nothing mandatory, study a small number of subjects based on what you're hoping to do at university.

I would agree with this. That would be a better option rather than the traditional Leaving Certificate in my opinion.

Dughorm

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

I would agree with this. That would be a better option rather than the traditional Leaving Certificate in my opinion.

So Fianna Fail want to bring in an additional optional Irish subject for leaving cert for native/fluent speakers and maintain mandatory Irish for leaving cert.

As well as that they want a foreign language mandatory for all at leaving cert.

That would be 4 mandatory subjects for all students, and for fluent Irish speakers, effectively 5 mandatory subjects. What do ye think?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dughorm wrote: »

So Fianna Fail want to bring in an additional optional Irish subject for leaving cert for native/fluent speakers and maintain mandatory Irish for leaving cert.

As well as that they want a foreign language mandatory for all at leaving cert.

That would be 4 mandatory subjects for all students, and for fluent Irish speakers, effectively 5 mandatory subjects. What do ye think?

Any links? Not doubting you (Fianna Fail's attitude towards education seems to be massively anti-individual, so it wouldn't surprise me, to be honest) but would like to read it for myself.

It is an awful idea though - 5 mandatory subjects out of 7? How is that supposed to promote variety amongst graduates?

Dughorm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Any links?

Certainly

https://www.fiannafail.ie/about-fianna-fail/commitment-to-the-irish-language/

Here's one from Tuaisisc.ie - it's in Irish but I've done a free translation of the first few lines:
http://tuairisc.ie/roinn-gaeltachta-nua-agus-abhar-gaeilge-nua-don-ardteist-luaite-i-bhforogra-fhianna-fail/

tuairisc.ie wrote:

If they are in power, Fianna Fáil would bring in a new additional subject as a choice for Junior and Leaving Cert students to cater for the needs of native and other fluent speakers.

According to their manifesto, An Ireland for All, it would be certain that Gaeltacht schools would have all the resources and freedom they need to teach the language in an effective and suitable way.

The manifesto promises that the party will have a senior minister in the cabinet catering to the specific needs of Gaeltacht areas, one of the pre-election demands of Conradh na Gaeilge.

And this section from "An Ireland for All" launched today, the web version isn't friendly so I attach below

https://www.fiannafail.ie/an-ireland-for-all/

fianna fail wrote:

(ix) Protect & develop our national language

Our national language is an immeasurable cultural treasure. A century on from the foundation of our Republic the need to revitalise efforts to secure and develop the use of the Irish language is particularly important. Sadly, the current government lacks any real commitment to the language or the protection of language rights. Fine Gael and Labour have continuously downgraded the status of the Irish language. The successful roll out of an ambitious strategy for the Irish language requires on-going leadership and funding. In government we will give that leadership. We will:

– Appoint a senior minister with primary responsibility for Gaeltacht and Irish language affairs as part of the Department of Community Support & Development, Rural & Gaeltacht affairs.

– Establish a full Oireachtas committee with responsibility for Gaeltacht and Irish language affairs.

– Address the funding difficulties of Foras na Gaeilge and Údarás na Gaeltachta with additional resources. We will allocate an additional €3m annually to the continued implementation of the Irish language strategy and a further €3m of current expenditure for projects under Údarás na Gaeltachta.

– Support the office of An Coimisinéir Teanga, protect its independence, and introduce legislation to strengthen the Official Language Act and make language legislation more effective.

– Ensure Irish remains at the heart of our Junior and Leaving Certificate Curriculum. In addition, we are also committed to examining the possibility of introducing a second Irish language option for the Leaving Certificate and Junior Certificate to cater specifically for the needs of native speakers and other fluent speakers, and to ensure that Gaeltacht schools have the freedom and resources to teach Irish to the native speaker in a manner that is appropriate and effective.

– Build on the official recognition of Irish as a working language of the EU. We will work to ensure the Irish Language has full parity of esteem with other EU languages.

Edit: The commitment to make a European Language mandatory is included in their education policy document which is an attachment off the following link page 19: https://www.fiannafail.ie/issues/education/

Secondly, Fianna Fáil would make the learning of a foreign language up to Leaving Certificate level
compulsory. At present, it is anomalous that Ireland is the only country in Europe (apart from Scotland)
where foreign language is not compulsory.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Most of that is more a commitment to the language rather than a commitment to education or the student in fairness. Also, it doesn't state that both language courses would be mandatory (surely not even FF are that stupid) or that it would be English, Irish AND a third language.

I was strongly advised from doing French by a very well-respected and knowledgeable vice-principle because I struggled with Irish, which made sense - so how they can implement a third language under those terms is beyond me.

XplaygirlX

I can't speak a bloody word of Irish. I'm a flat dub so let's just pretend its ok

XR3i

window= fuinneog [fwin-yogue]