Why do you hate Irish?

jno547

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote:

Because it's not for you to say what's important to other people! That's just arrogant.

Arrogance is not part of my post nor am I saying what should be important to other people, I'm sure people are mature enough to make up their own minds on that, but it is important to me that this part of our culture is preserved and nourished and I will grasp every opportunity that arises to do that.

thattequilagirl

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Because it's going into the pockets of government cronies. These grants would be for aspiring artists and entrepreneurs. There is a difference.

Oiche mhaith, ancapailldorcha. Is docha i 2008, bhi tu in an smaoineamh nios laidre.

Goodnight ancapailldorcha - it seems in 2008 you were a bit more open minded.


Your attitude seems informed more by ingrained cynicism than reality, and that I cannot counter.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

jno547 wrote: »

Arrogance is not part of my post nor am I saying what should be important to other people, I'm sure people are mature enough to make up their own minds on that, but it is important to me that this part of our culture is preserved and nourished and I will grasp every opportunity that arises to do that.

You did - you said "who we are" - that implies plural. And I'm assuming you mean everyone Irish. Might nto have been intended as aorrogant - fair enough - but it still implies that what you think is important, everyone should think important.

The problem is, endorsing cumpulsory Irish is endorsing a system that does not allow people to make up their own minds.

Iwasfrozen

jno547 wrote: »

Arrogance is not part of my post nor am I saying what should be important to other people, I'm sure people are mature enough to make up their own minds on that, but it is important to me that this part of our culture is preserved and nourished and I will grasp every opportunity that arises to do that.

Except learning to speak it?

Every opportunity is an interesting metric though. If, hypothetically, you could pay any X amount of money to ensure the endangered language survives into the far future what would the minimum value of X be for you?

thattequilagirl

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Because it's not for you to say what's important to other people! That's just arrogant.

Right, but it's not up to you either...

maudgonner

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't resent the language. I resent the special interest groups cowering behind it.

Wow. I think if you had revealed this fact a little earlier it might have helped lead to some constructive debate. But this thread seems to just be mired in backbiting and overreaction, with nobody actually listening to each other.

What a wasted opportunity. I'm out.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Right, but it's not up to you either...

Where did I say it was?

thattequilagirl

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

.

The problem is, endorsing cumpulsory Irish is endorsing a system that does not allow people to make up their own minds.

As I said earlier on the thread, I'm in agreement about making it optional after junior cert. Most of the subjects I did for junior cert were compulsory and I think that's fine - few of us are mature enough at 12/13 to make informed choices. By 15, and facing into Leaving Cert, I do think it should be optional.

In either case, the way it is taught has to be improved.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

thattequilagirl wrote: »

As I said earlier on the thread, I'm in agreement about making it optional after junior cert. Most of the subjects I did for junior cert were compulsory and I think that's fine - few of us are mature enough at 12/13 to make informed choices. By 15, and facing into Leaving Cert, I do think it should be optional.

In either case, the way it is taught has to be improved.

Yeah, now THIS is what I said!

But they've had nearly a certury to put together a syallabus that turns it into a language and makes it palatable for kids. How much longer is it going to take?

The probelm is when people have to do it anyway, where's no motivation to improve it. As the inevitable status quo proves.

jno547

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote:

You did - you said "who we are" - that implies plural. And I'm assuming you mean everyone Irish. Might nto have been intended as aorrogant - fair enough - but it still implies that what you think is important, everyone should think important.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote:

The problem is, endorsing cumpulsory Irish is endorsing a system that does not allow people to make up their own minds.

I did..you said.... tiring,
Compulsory Irish to Leaving cert is here and hopefully here to stay and I fully endorse that.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

jno547 wrote: »

I did..you said.... tiring,
Compulsory Irish to Leaving cert is here and hopefully here to stay and I fully endorse that.

So you are in favour of people making up their own minds as well as forcing them to learn it...?

If you find debate tiring, you're on the wrong website.

ancapailldorcha

maudgonner wrote: »

Wow. I think if you had revealed this fact a little earlier it might have helped lead to some constructive debate. But this thread seems to just be mired in backbiting and overreaction, with nobody actually listening to each other.

What a wasted opportunity. I'm out.

I was very clear about this.

jno547

Iwasfrozen wrote:

Every opportunity is an interesting metric though. If, hypothetically, you could pay any X amount of money to ensure the endangered language survives into the far future what would the minimum value of X be for you?

Ahh here we go, the monetary value of 'an endangered language' always has to rear it's ugly head, there is no price on preserving what is part of who I am. Its called pride which to me is priceless. Try it out sometime you might be surprised and get something other than monetary gain out of it.

Iwasfrozen

jno547 wrote: »

Ahh here we go, the monetary value of 'an endangered language' always has to rear it's ugly head, there is no price on preserving what is part of who I am. Its called pride which to me is priceless. Try it out sometime you might be surprised and get something other than monetary gain out of it.

There's no price? So you would spend all your money? Sell your car? Your house? Pauperize your family? X would approach infinity for you? Go on humour me, give me a realistic answer.

I'm interested in what value a man places on a language he doesn't speak but claims is part of his identity.

jno547

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote:

So you are in favour of people making up their own minds as well as forcing them to learn it...?

Have you a problem reading what I type or is it just tiredness ???
On the contrary its a great site for a debate, just difficult when people only see what they want between the lines.
Oiche mhaith, thats Good Night.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

jno547 wrote: »

Have you a problem reading what I type or is it just tiredness ???
On the contrary its a great site for a debate, just difficult when people only see what they want between the lines.
Oiche mhaith, thats Good Night.

Hmm.... looks like we have found our chess-playing pigeon....

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

jno547

Permabear wrote:

This post had been deleted.

All the more important then that we protect and preserve the little culture that exists here.

maudgonner

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I was very clear about this.

Fair enough, I missed it - I tend to swear off this thread every few days cause it gives me Hulk rage. Way too much bitterness and entrenched views for me

thattequilagirl

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I am fully in favour of broadening the definition of what it means to be Irish to include greater diversity. This shouldn't mean abandoning Irish though.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Wibbs

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There's no price? So you would spend all your money? Sell your car? Your house? Pauperize your family? X would approach infinity for you? Go on humour me, give me a realistic answer.

Sheesh. *scary noises* Hyperbole much? Pauperise one's family? Eh W.T.F? And you speak of realism without any hint of irony?

I'm not so value blind and binary in thinking to see it as one or the other, or so value blind to see the only good background is one that sets a person up just to feed the mechanisms of commerce and industry. Things deemed "useful" are an organic and varying thing, unless one wants to get all Sheldon Cooper about it. Or if one has coin in the game. Professional Gaelgoiri definitely have coin in the game.

I'd have little issue with public money promoting a language of a minority with a deep history in this country. Goes for other minority cultural pursuits. It's not, or shouldn't be all about the balance sheet, IMHO that as a hardline way of thinking is more like a pathology, rather than a philosophy.

However, I very much do have issue with the amounts of public monies concerned, the amounts of you're not really "Irish" if you're not fully on board with as Gaelige while dancing a jig and wielding a hurl baggage and the amounts of artificial requirements to prove how "Irish" one is that are attached.

Iwasfrozen

Wibbs wrote: »

Sheesh. *scary noises* Hyperbole much? Pauperise one's family? Eh W.T.F? And you speak of realism without any hint of irony?

I'm not so value blind and binary in thinking to see it as one or the other, or so value blind to see the only good background is one that sets a person up just to feed the mechanisms of commerce and industry. Things deemed "useful" are an organic and varying thing, unless one wants to get all Sheldon Cooper about it. Or if one has coin in the game. Professional Gaelgoiri definitely have coin in the game.

I'd have little issue with public money promoting a language of a minority with a deep history in this country. Goes for other minority cultural pursuits. It's not, or shouldn't be all about the balance sheet, IMHO that as a hardline way of thinking is more like a pathology, rather than a philosophy.

However, I very much do have issue with the amounts of public monies concerned, the amounts of you're not really "Irish" if you're not fully on board with as Gaelige while dancing a jig and wielding a hurl baggage and the amounts of artificial requirements to prove how "Irish" one is that are attached.

Well yes, I was using hyperbole for emphasis.

Shep_Dog

jno547 wrote: »

There is an old Irish proverb which translated says "a country without a language is a country without an identity "

That's not an old Irish proverb and you've misquoted Padraig Pearse, who made it up.

It's also nonsense. Every country has a language.

ancapailldorcha

Wibbs wrote: »

Sheesh. *scary noises* Hyperbole much? Pauperise one's family? Eh W.T.F? And you speak of realism without any hint of irony?

I'm not so value blind and binary in thinking to see it as one or the other, or so value blind to see the only good background is one that sets a person up just to feed the mechanisms of commerce and industry. Things deemed "useful" are an organic and varying thing, unless one wants to get all Sheldon Cooper about it. Or if one has coin in the game. Professional Gaelgoiri definitely have coin in the game.

I'd have little issue with public money promoting a language of a minority with a deep history in this country. Goes for other minority cultural pursuits. It's not, or shouldn't be all about the balance sheet, IMHO that as a hardline way of thinking is more like a pathology, rather than a philosophy.

However, I very much do have issue with the amounts of public monies concerned, the amounts of you're not really "Irish" if you're not fully on board with as Gaelige while dancing a jig and wielding a hurl baggage and the amounts of artificial requirements to prove how "Irish" one is that are attached.

Well, Wibbs we have a system which exists to enrich government cronies and when this system is challenged at all they cower behind the language and hold it hostage as if cutting off their gravy train will result in the final death of the language. It's easy to moan about public money when it's being wasted, less so when it achieves results.

Galego

Shep_Dog wrote: »

That's not an old Irish proverb and you've misquoted Padraig Pearse, who made it up.

It's also nonsense. Every country has a language.

Many have many more than one because they knew how to keep them alive, not just at the schools!

thattequilagirl

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Well, Wibbs we have a system which exists to enrich government cronies and when this system is challenged at all they cower behind the language and hold it hostage as if cutting off their gravy train will result in the final death of the language. It's easy to moan about public money when it's being wasted, less so when it achieves results.

If your gripe is with government cronyism and waste, there are many, many examples of that in Ireland.

You see the money spent on Irish as a waste, but I don't. Is your opinion more important or valuable than mine?

ancapailldorcha

thattequilagirl wrote: »

If your gripe is with government cronyism and waste, there are many, many examples of that in Ireland.

You see the money spent on Irish as a waste, but I don't. Is your opinion more important or valuable than mine?

It's a waste because the vast majority of the population is not fluent. Worse, people aren't gaining skills which would help the country because they have to spend so long trying to learn from a fundamentally broken syllabus.

thattequilagirl

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's a waste because the vast majority of the population is not fluent. Worse, people aren't gaining skills which would help the country because they have to spend so long trying to learn from a fundamentally broken syllabus.

So we're back to your confusion over whether you object to the money being spent, or that it's not spent more effectively. For the record, about 55,000 people take oral, aural and written fluency exams each year and the vast majority pass it. So your point is null and void.

ancapailldorcha

thattequilagirl wrote: »

So we're back to your confusion over whether you object to the money being spent, or that it's not spent more effectively. For the record, about 55,000 people take oral, aural and written fluency exams each year and the vast majority pass it. So your point is null and void.

Another figure plucked from nowhere. It's barely above 1% of the population which seems small for a supposed national language.