Why do you hate Irish?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dughorm wrote: »

What lobby group does?

Did SIMI consult the nation before lobbying for 131 Plates to be introduced to save car sales from superstition?

Third time I've faced a strawman argument in this thread this weekend.

kingchess

Now that it is election time you could try and get Irish dropped/banned or keep it up to 3rd year in secondary school,judging by some posters their civil rights are infringed by the harsh sounds of what they say is a dead language, so get on to the political parties now and get your voice heard-remember that if you never ask the answer will always be no.

Dughorm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Third time I've faced a strawman argument in this thread this weekend.

Was the ridiculousness of the example lost on you!?

Anyway, as King Chess says, bring it up on the doorsteps as an election issue if you feel that you need a bulwark against any perceived threat of forced "massive change and upheaval" in the language stakes!

Iwasfrozen

Dughorm wrote: »

Was the ridiculousness of the example lost on you!?

Anyway, as King Chess says, bring it up on the doorsteps as an election issue if you feel that you need a bulwark against any perceived threat of forced "massive change and upheaval" in the language stakes!

Two things I ask candidates, how will you balance our budget and how will you campaign to make Irish optional.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dughorm wrote: »

Was the ridiculousness of the example lost on you!?

Anyway, as King Chess says, bring it up on the doorsteps as an election issue if you feel that you need a bulwark against any perceived threat of forced "massive change and upheaval" in the language stakes!

There was nothing ridiculous about your example - it just argued against a point I never made.

I said if you have an idea that causes upheavel to an entire nation, you should consult said people. I never argued that lobby groups should - that was you, not me.

I'd people really wanted Irish to be the main language of conversation, they would not be campaigning - they'd be bloody well learning it.

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

What lobby group does? Did SIMI consult the nation before lobbying for 131 Plates to be introduced to save car sales from superstition?

How can you compare changing the registration numbers of cars with making everyone in Ireland replace English with Irish as their common language?

You've already tried to deny CnaG's grand plan for the ordinary people of Ireland, now you try to pass off a change in our common language as if it were no more than a bureucratic detail.

Dughorm

Shep_Dog wrote: »

How can you compare changing the registration numbers of cars with making everyone in Ireland replace English with Irish as their common language?

You've already tried to deny CnaG's grand plan for the ordinary people of Ireland, now you try to pass off a change in our common language as if it were no more than a bureucratic detail.

See

Dughorm wrote:

Was the ridiculousness of the example lost on you!?

Dughorm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Two things I ask candidates, how will you balance our budget and how will you campaign to make Irish optional.

Great - please let us know what candidates/parties are in agreement with you on the Irish optional question so I don't vote for them.

Dughorm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I said if you have an idea that causes upheavel to an entire nation, you should consult said people. I never argued that lobby groups should -....

I wonder what sort of 1916 we'd be commemorating if the republicans consulted the people of Dublin first?

TheLastMohican

Because it has something in common with Latin, Coptic and Sanskrit.
Is marbh, leanbh!

Dughorm

TheLastMohican wrote: »

Because it has something in common with Latin, Coptic and Sanskrit.
Is marbh, leanbh!

Careful now - you had better translate that

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dughorm wrote: »

I wonder what sort of 1916 we'd be commemorating if the republicans consulted the people of Dublin first?

An unpopular goal being forced through by a small bunch of radicals who think they know better than everyone else and consequently don't care about other people. Same thing. The aim of 1916 was just to force a different will on the same set of people.

CnaG have two options:
1 - try and persuade the people that learning and using Irish might be a nice idea
2 - **** the people and just try and get laws passed forcing them to use it

For some reason, they try option 2. Now whay is that?

TheLastMohican

Dughorm wrote: »

Careful now - you had better translate that

"Baby, it's dead" .................. I fink

Iwasfrozen

Dughorm wrote: »

Great - please let us know what candidates/parties are in agreement with you on the Irish optional question so I don't vote for them.

Well you're probably not in my constituency but Lab / FG have largely been in agreement. FF agree about the budget but not making Irish optional. Of course they're probably lying out of both sides of their mouth but I'm going to hound the poor bastard once elected.

Shurimgreat

kingchess wrote: »

Now that it is election time you could try and get Irish dropped/banned or keep it up to 3rd year in secondary school,judging by some posters their civil rights are infringed by the harsh sounds of what they say is a dead language, so get on to the political parties now and get your voice heard-remember that if you never ask the answer will always be no.

They know they'd be told to feck off by said politicians. So they come on here and have a rant instead.

Some of the anti-Irish language rhetoric on here is laughably over the top. You get the feeling some posters would rather be water boarded than learn Irish!

ancapailldorcha

Shurimgreat wrote: »

They know they'd be told to feck off by said politicians. So they come on here and have a rant instead.

Some of the anti-Irish language rhetoric on here is laughably over the top. You get the feeling some posters would rather be water boarded than learn Irish!

Because the compulsory Irish brigade has got its hooks in too deep at this stage. They have successfully convinced people that cutting off their special privileges would result in the death of the language. Odd that a nation's culture needs to be forced down kids' throats I've always thought. I'm also given to believe that each generation would resent the idea of the next being exempted from the ordeal of enduring the syllabus.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Because the compulsory Irish brigade has got its hooks in too deep at this stage. They have successfully convinced people that cutting off their special privileges would result in the death of the language. Odd that a nation's culture needs to be forced down kids' throats I've always thought. I'm also given to believe that each generation would resent the idea of the next being exempted from the ordeal of enduring the syllabus.

I'd be very happy for them to be honest. Might finally allow some individuals to finally reach their full potential rather then being held back by someone else's private ideals.

ancapailldorcha

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'd be very happy for them to be honest. Might finally allow some individuals to finally reach their full potential rather then being held back by someone else's private ideals.

When I think of all the time wasted.... I know people who wanted to be Doctors and Pharmacists that had to train abroad because foreign educators assign the true worth to the language, ie none.

osarusan

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

They have successfully convinced people that cutting off their special privileges would result in the death of the language.

That's exactly what would happen if the special privileges were removed.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

osarusan wrote: »

That's exactly what would happen if the special privileges were removed.

No - they'd just have to actually do some work in promoting it it order to see it florish, as opposed to now where people think something positivie is happening.

There are enough willing and happy teenagers speaking the language to ensure it's survival, and power to them.

Not every boy takes up hurling, not every girl takes up Camogie, but they still exist and are quiet popular.

ancapailldorcha

osarusan wrote: »

That's exactly what would happen if the special privileges were removed.

I've made arguments for an enterprise and innovation focused approach to reviving the language but I think I have to concede this. The language is effectively dead for over 99% of the population in any case. As long as we continue to force children to spend degree levels of time on it there will be a skills shortage in our economy which doesn't help anyone save for O' Cuiv and his pals. It's sad but at the end of the day it is the Irish who killed off the language, not the English.

osarusan

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

There are enough willing and happy teenagers speaking the language to ensure it's survival, and power to them.

There wouldn't be anywhere near as many if the special privileges were removed.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I've made arguments for an enterprise and innovation focused approach to reviving the language

That's pretty misguided - if there were a market it would have been exploited already. TNaG didn't fill a gap in the market - it was always a cultural enterprise rather than a financial one.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

As long as we continue to force children to spend degree levels of time on it there will be a skills shortage in our economy which doesn't help anyone save for O' Cuiv and his pals..

Lets not blame the time spent on it for all our educational ills mind. Skills shortages are a result of much more than 1 subject.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

osarusan wrote: »

That's exactly what would happen if the special privileges were removed.

osarusan wrote: »

There wouldn't be anywhere near as many if the special privileges were removed.

If that was true, the language would already be dead.

ancapailldorcha

osarusan wrote: »

That's pretty misguided - if there were a market it would have been exploited already. TNaG didn't fill a gap in the market - it was always a cultural enterprise rather than a financial one.

I was referring to people with skills in film, radio and so forth making content voluntarily or perhaps with government grants or grants from charities.

osarusan wrote: »

Lets not blame the time spent on it for all our educational ills mind. Skills shortages are a result of much more than 1 subject.

I never said that. However, do you not think the hours spent on it per week which must amount to several hundred could not be better spent?

osarusan

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

If that was true, the language would already be dead.

It's easy enough to prop up a language if you throw enough money at it - and you can get people to be happy to speak it.

And that is how there are the number of happy and willing speakers there are today. It is not a reflection of the actual support base for the language - it is a level inflated by special privileges.

But if Irish lost its special privileges, such as designated Gaeltacht areas, Udaras na Galetachta, Gaeltacht grants for housing, Irish-language media, Irish-language primary or secondary schools (Government-run schools, at least), the time allocated to Irish in usual primary and secondary schools...among other things...the number of happy and willing speakers would drop.

I don't think anybody could question that.

The question then is - how many will remain, when all of the above has been removed.

Udaras Na Gaeltachta put out a report just last year saying that Irish might cease to be the community languae of the Gaeltacht in the next 10 years - and that is with all the privileges.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

osarusan wrote: »

It's easy enough to prop up a language if you throw enough money at it - and you can get people to be happy to speak it.

If people are happy to sepak it, then it wouldn't need proping up or forcing disinterested speakers to learn it. It has what it needs.

But if Irish lost its special privileges, such as designated Gaeltacht areas, Udaras na Galetachta, Gaeltacht grants for housing, Irish-language media, Irish-language primary or secondary schools (Government-run schools, at least), the time allocated to Irish in usual primary and secondary schools...among other things...the number of happy and willing speakers would drop.

With the exception of the last one, I'm happy for the others to be funded and exist. I'd see these as resources though, rather then privileges.

If someone wants to speak it and learn it, they should be afforded the opportunity. This is consistent with both our arguments. If they simply want to do something else though, during their education, then they should be afforded that privilege - without someone scarmongering that it will be the death of the language. The student is there for an education and the system is there to educate - not enforce a disagreeable cultural ordeal.

osarusan

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I was referring to people with skills in film, radio and so forth making content voluntarily or perhaps with government grants or grants from charities.

There's no money to be made from it except what the government sets aside for it.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I never said that. However, do you not think the hours spent on it per week which must amount to several hundred could not be better spent?

You went pretty close to saying it, I would say. It depends on what you mean by better spent. Sure it could be better spent if that means other subjects would be improved and so on, but it wouldn't be better for Irish.



I'll make what I think clear - Irish is on life support. It will only survive* through that life-support. Removing it from that life-support (whether that's portrayed as letting enterprise take over, making it optional in schools, etc) will only worsen its condition.

Government support, far from stifling the progress of the language, is pretty much all that's keeping it alive.

*There will always be a number of people willing to learn it and have their kids learn it, but, without all existing government-provided support for and access to Irish language education, that number would be very very small.

Improving the curriculum in schools is one way that it could be improved - if there were not such a strong lobby insisting that Irish curriculum mirrored the English curriculum as much as possible (which is why there is poetry and prose and so on that the students are nowhere near ready to understand) students could end up leaving school with a pretty damn good standard of spoken Irish - could well be better than French, Spanish, German, etc.

But what would happen after they leave school - well, the same thing that happens now: they have very limited opportunity to speak it, and they forget it (just as lots of students forget their French and Spanish and German after leaving school).

ancapailldorcha

osarusan wrote: »

There's no money to be made from it except what the government sets aside for it.

People do volunteer for things they're passionate about.

osarusan wrote: »

You went pretty close to saying it, I would say. It depends on what you mean by better spent. Sure it could be better spent if that means other subjects would be improved and so on, but it wouldn't be better for Irish.

And the current state of affairs is? People leave school fed up of it.

osarusan wrote: »

I'll make what I think clear - Irish is on life support. It will only survive* through that life-support. Removing it from that life-support (whether that's portrayed as letting enterprise take over, making it optional in schools, etc) will only worsen its condition.

Indeed. However, I would also add that it's in a very deep coma with chances of revival decreasing exponentially.

osarusan wrote: »

Improving the curriculum in schools is one way that it could be improved - if there were not such a strong lobby insisting that Irish curriculum mirrored the English curriculum as much as possible (which is why there is poetry and prose and so on that the students are nowhere near ready to understand) students could end up leaving school with a pretty damn good standard of spoken Irish - could well be better than French, Spanish, German, etc.

I've come to believe that this is pure fantasy. The same vested interests profiting from the current status quo will be reluctant to accept any form of accountability and, let's be clear here, this is the fundamental problem.

Shurimgreat

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Because the compulsory Irish brigade has got its hooks in too deep at this stage. They have successfully convinced people that cutting off their special privileges would result in the death of the language. Odd that a nation's culture needs to be forced down kids' throats I've always thought. I'm also given to believe that each generation would resent the idea of the next being exempted from the ordeal of enduring the syllabus.

Nonsense. We live in a democracy. There is nothing to stop a popular idea gaining traction and there being a change. The fact is at the moment very few politicians want a change to the status quo so its going to remain the way it is for the foreseeable future.

Its a shame you don't feel the same about English culture being shoved down our throat, given that English is compulsory up to Leaving Cert.

English good, Irish bad. I get it. You've said nothing new for at least 20 posts now, just repeating the same unconvincing arguments.

ancapailldorcha

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Nonsense. We live in a democracy. There is nothing to stop a popular idea gaining traction and there being a change. The fact is at the moment very few politicians want a change to the status quo so its going to remain the way it is for the foreseeable future.

Its a shame you don't feel the same about English culture being shoved down our throat, given that English is compulsory up to Leaving Cert.

English good, Irish bad. I get it. You'd said nothing new for at least 20 posts now, just repeating the same unconvincing arguments.

The last few posts you've made on this thread have been vacuous deflections. You can't argue in favour of compulsory Irish so instead you try to shift the goalposts.

But, yes. Compulsory Irish is here to stay based on the showing the special interests brigade when someone dared to moot the idea of making optional for the Leaving Cert. As a result, there will be a skills shortage, people will emigrate, Irish Universities will slip in rank and so on. Ah sure, but it's our culture.