MORE crap on the way.

yubabill1

gunny123 wrote: »

Well remember the old saying, that a camel is a horse designed by a committee. The sa-80 really was a camel. I was always amazed at our defence forces having the really good sense to buy the steyr aug, you know we normally make a town-halls of things like that.

In fairness, they made some reasonable choices over the years wrt small arms; SMLE, FN FAL, Gustav, BAP, S&W revolvers, Minimi.

I know in the 85/86 trials they tried the M16, SA80 and I think even the AK (not 100% on the AK and think it was for benchmarking, although don't know how they would have got their hands on one back then).

Grizzly 45

They could have taken the SIG 550 or its 80s in between version,or the Galil,or Finnish Valmet as well:P They would have outlived 4 gen of Irish army no problems.
The Gustav,aka Swedish K...A good choice.... Matter of opinion I guess.

tac foley

SIG550 - THE most accurate service-issue infantry rifle/carbine in existence. Un-*******-believable. My first shoot in 1993 got me distinguished marksman 'ehrenstrauss'. But then everybody else got it, too...

As for where the Brits could possibly have gotten hold of an AK, let's see.........ah yes, howsabout Op Hyperion? Lebanon? Peacekeeping? Along with the Irish?

Or howsabout Crossmaglen? Co Tyrone? Co. Fermanagh? And so on.

Lots of AKs in Northern Ireland in the 80s, thank to the late Col Gaddafi. No doubt there still are.

tac

yubabill1

Never thought about the peacekeeping, Tac.

Maybe a few of Gaddafi's AK's were seized around that time, too.

Also, maybe they got some on loan from a foreign research org.

Just that AK's were never seen here before Gaddafi shipments, which were mid-80's.

gunny123

I wonder what Whitey Bulger sent over by the boat load from Boston ? A few ak's might have made it onto the boats.

tac foley

yubabill1 wrote: »

Never thought about the peacekeeping, Tac.

Maybe a few of Gaddafi's AK's were seized around that time, too.

Also, maybe they got some on loan from a foreign research org.

Just that AK's were never seen here before Gaddafi shipments, which were mid-80's.

The RUC forensic labs at Laddas Drive were knee-deep in AKs taken off people who had no further use for them. If RSA Enfield had wanted to use them as test models it would have been the easiest thing in the world to get a couple of dozen over to the mainland. In Berlin I had six in the armoury, four Soviet and two NVA - that was in '81 until I left in late '83. The British government would never have had any problem getting hold of any small arm it could envision needing to.

Read -

The other source of IRA arms in the 1970s was Libya, whose leader, Muammar Gaddafi, sympathised with their campaign.[15]
The first Libyan arms donation to the IRA occurred in 1972–1973, following visits by Joe Cahill to Libya. In early 1973, the Government of the Republic of Ireland received intelligence that the vessel Claudia was carrying a shipment of weapons, and placed the ship under surveillance on 27 March. On 28 March, three Irish Naval Service patrol vessels intercepted Claudia in Irish territorial waters near Helvick Head, County Waterford, seizing five tonnes of Libyan arms and ammunition found on board. The weapons seized included 250 Soviet-made small arms, 240 rifles, anti-tank mines and other explosives. Cahill was found and arrested on board.[16][17] It is estimated that three shipments of weapons of similar size and makeup did get through to the IRA during the same time period.[18] Journalist Ed Moloney reports that the early Libyan arms shipments furnished the IRA with its first RPG-7 rocket-propelled grenade launchers, and that Gaddafi also donated three to five million US dollars at this time.[19] However contact with the Libyan government was broken off in 1976.
Contact with Libya was restored in the aftermath of the 1981 Irish Hunger Strike, which was said to have impressed Gadaffi. In the 1980s, the IRA secured larger quantities of weapons and explosives from Gaddafi's Libya – enough to supply at least two infantry battalions.[20] Four successful shipments of arms were made between 1985 and 1986, providing large quantities of modern weaponry, including heavy weaponry such as heavy machine guns, over 1,000 rifles, several hundred handguns, rocket-propelled grenades, flamethrowers, surface-to-air missiles, and Semtex[21][22][23]—an odourless explosive, invisible to X-rays, and many times more powerful than fertiliser.[24] According to British journalist Toby Harnden, from late 1986 to 2011, "virtually every bomb constructed by the Provisional IRA" and splinter groups such as the Real IRA, "has contained Semtex from a Libyan shipment unloaded at an Irish pier in 1986."[24]
These shipments were in retaliation for the British Government's support for the US Air Force's bombing attacks on Tripoli and Benghazi in 1986, which in turn were in retaliation for the 1986 bombing of the LaBelle discotheque in Berlin. The USAF planes involved in the bombings had taken off from British bases on 14 April 1986, and Libya reportedly suffered 60 casualties in the attack. This second major Libyan contribution to the IRA came in 1986–1987.
There were four shipments which were not intercepted, in a huge intelligence failure of both Irish and British agencies described as 'calamitous' by journalist Brendan O'Brien.[25] The arm supplies from Libya developed as follows:
The trawler Casamara took on ten tonnes of weapons in September 1985 off the Maltese island of Gozo. These weapons were landed off the Clogga Strand near Arklow by inflatable boats some weeks later. The shipment contained five hundred crates of AK-47s, pistols, hand grenades, ammunition and seven RPG-7s.
Casamara (renamed Kula at this time), left Maltese waters on 6 October 1985 carrying a cache of DShK heavy machine guns.
In July 1986, there was a shipment of 14 tonnes, including, according to the authorities, two SAM-7s.
In October 1986, another shipment of 80 tonnes which included one tonne of Semtex, reportedly ten SAM-7 missiles, more RPG-7s, AK-47s and hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition arrived aboard the oil-rig replenishment Villa.[26]
In total, the arms shipments included:

An AK-47 Assault Rifle (over 1000 of which were donated by Gaddafi to the IRA in the 1980s)

RPG-7
9mm Browning, Taurus, Glock and Beretta handguns
AK-47 Kalashnikov and AKM assault rifles
MP5 submachine guns
RPG-7 anti-tank rocket launcher
Soviet made DShK heavy machine guns
FN MAG machine guns
Military flamethrowers
Semtex plastic explosive
Strela 2 man portable SAMs
It is also estimated that the Libyan government gave the IRA the equivalent of £2 million along with the 1980s shipments.[27]
However, on 1 November 1987, during transit to Ireland, one-third of the total Libyan arms consignment being carried aboard the MV Eksund was intercepted by the French Navy while the ship was in the Bay of Biscay,[28] along with five crew members, among them Gabriel Cleary. The vessel was found to contain 120 tonnes of weapons, including HMGs, 36 RPGs, 1000 detonators, 20 SAMs, Semtex and 1,000,000 rounds of ammunition.[29] Ed Moloney claimed that the Eksund shipment also contained military mortars and a 106-millimetre cannon, an assertion never confirmed by the Irish authorities.[30] Despite the Eksund fiasco, the IRA was by then equipped with a quantity and quality of weaponry and explosives never available to them at any other phase of their history.[25] Furthermore, according to Brendan O'Brien there was actually an 'over-supply', especially regarding the 600 AK-47s still in the hands of the IRA by 1992.[31]
Garda Síochána (the Police Service of the Republic of Ireland) uncovered numerous arms destined for the IRA in 1988. These included several hundred AK-47s, Russian DSHK HMGs, FN MAG machine guns and Semtex.[27]
By 1996, Jane's Intelligence Review reported that "it is believed that the bulk of the material presently in IRA arsenals was shipped from Libya in the mid-1980s with the aid of a skipper, Adrian Hopkins, hired for the purpose by the IRA."

All of these, of course, have been put 'beyond use'..........

tac

yubabill1

Easy to forget about the 70's shipments (as I did).

tac foley

IIRC, the first AK47 I ever saw in this part of the world was in the back of a red transit van after the driver was stopped at a road checkpoint near Mahgherafelt. He denied all knowledge of it until one of the troops got him to empty his pockets of the three magazines that were weighing them down...

That was in 1975.

tac

Grizzly 45

Remember I said the Swiss will mobilise and proably chuck Shenegen awhile ago?
Sorry I can't translate this article,but the EU gun ban is being debated in Switzerland as hard as we are debating in the Dail about...Er...maybe when Inda might go?:rolleyes: And total media silence around the EU about this happening in Switzerlandtoo.
Anyways,the Swiss are saying that they WILL call a referendum on the implimentation of the EU directive and if Switzerland will continue under Shenegen...

http://www.blick.ch/news/politik/knatsch-um-eu-waffenrecht-schuetzen-fordern-uebungsabbruch-id6681084.html

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Remember I said the Swiss will mobilise and proably chuck Shenegen awhile ago?
Sorry I can't translate this article,but the EU gun ban is being debated in Switzerland as hard as we are debating in the Dail about...Er...maybe when Inda might go?:rolleyes: And total media silence around the EU about this happening in Switzerlandtoo.
Anyways,the Swiss are saying that they WILL call a referendum on the implimentation of the EU directive and if Switzerland will continue under Shenegen...

http://www.blick.ch/news/politik/knatsch-um-eu-waffenrecht-schuetzen-fordern-uebungsabbruch-id6681084.html

Yes, public representatives that actually represent their own people, instead of idiot school teachers, brown noseing their way around europe looking for pats on the head (literally), while chucking their country under the bus.

Things might get interesting with Macron saying he wants "reform" of the eu.

Gravelly

gunny123 wrote: »

Yes, public representatives that actually represent their own people, instead of idiot school teachers, brown noseing their way around europe looking for pats on the head (literally), while chucking their country under the bus.

Things might get interesting with Macron saying he wants "reform" of the eu.

I fear Macron's idea of reform is that the EU becomes even more federal.

BattleCorp

Gravelly wrote: »

I fear Macron's idea of reform is that the EU becomes even more federal.

He'll have his work cut out if he wants to create a more federal Europe, it's barely stuck together as it is.

gunny123

Gravelly wrote: »

I fear Macron's idea of reform is that the EU becomes even more federal.

That dog won't hunt. Everyone has had enough of that notion.

Gravelly

gunny123 wrote: »

That dog won't hunt. Everyone has had enough of that notion.

Someone needs to tell Frau Merkel.

gunny123

Gravelly wrote: »

Someone needs to tell Frau Merkel.

She has the attitude that Germany puts the most money into the eu, so everyone must dance to her tune.

Grizzly 45

The French young fellah with mummy issues who became president,will have his work cut out sorting out the mess that is France first,before he starts on anything in the EU.

Grizzly 45

https://firearms-united.com/2017/05/16/national_implementation/

Might make a change for our organisations to actually concern themselves with some genuine problems,when they aren't arguing what shade of brown the SHT actually is....Or selling their members down the said creek minus boats,paddles or lifejacket.:rolleyes:

BattleCorp

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

https://firearms-united.com/2017/05/16/national_implementation/

Might make a change for our organisations to actually concern themselves with some genuine problems,when they aren't arguing what shade of brown the SHT actually is....Or selling their members down the said creek minus boats,paddles or lifejacket.:rolleyes:

I don't agree with the slogan in the pic at the top of the page.

"Every firearm taken out of the legal civilian market is one more gun on the black market".

Sorry, but that's boll0cks. Could they not come up with a more accurate slogan. Inaccurate sh1te like that doesn't help our cause.

Grizzly 45

I wouldnt be worried sbout slogans rather with the content of the message.It more important the implications of the content.
But point noted..Ill kick it up the chain for you.

Grizzly 45

http://https://firearms-united.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/kuva_illegal_1-1024x640.jpg

This was put together by the Italian chapter and the author, Pierangelo Tendias author of the online mag Gunsweek has explained the meaning and context.. Hope this clarifies things...

It stemmed from an investigation that discovered how firearms turned in by their legitimate owners, or confiscated by Law Enforcement in Italy, and sent for destruction to an Italian Army specialized unit, were being diverted to the criminal underground market by corrupt officials.

It was meant to convey a clear message: according to UNODC, 99% of all civilian hands in the EUROPEAN UNION area are well accounted for, versus only 70% of Government-owned weapons.

And yet several Member States supported the European Commission's early proposals that called for a total ban and confiscation of certain categories of firearms and related items.

So, yes, it does us a favour: every gun taken away from their legitimate owners by the government is at risk of ending up on the civilian market, because our governments can not be trusted with their firearms, let alone our own.

BACK ROUND
On March 29th, 2017, arrests were made in Italy, between Sardinia and the City of Padua as a gang was discovered planning the theft of the remains of Enzo Ferrari – founder of the well-known sports car manufacturing company – in order to blackmail the family (goo.gl/KmUWor).

A branch of the investigation – to which the mainstream media dedicated an unsurprisingly small amount of attention – led to the suspension and arrest of several military and civilian employees of the 15th CERIMANT (Maintenance and Supply Center) of the Italian Army, headquartered in Padua (goo.gl/LWjFWn).

Among the duties of the CERIMANT are:
• The destruction of obsolete weapons and ammunition laid off by the Italian military and law enforcement
• The destruction of the weapons, ammunition and explosives confiscated by the Italian law enforcement agencies in the course of their duties
• The destruction of those firearms turned in to the Police by those Italian civilians who don't want – or can't – keep them anymore but for some reason can't find anybody willing to buy them

The investigation (goo.gl/XVoKxs) found out that the 15th CERIMANT Center of the Italian Army had become a “department store of illegal weaponryâ€: a finely-tuned system allowed huge quantities of former civilian and military firearms to be saved from the smelter and sold on the black market (goo.gl/xfdWuY).

It is certain that a great number of those guns, during the years, found their way to the hands of the 'Ndrangheta – a ruthless criminal organization of southern Italy (goo.gl/a2gw1E).

EU, the UN, the Governments of many Countries and basically any gun control advocacy group out there advocates mass confiscation or centralized storage of civilian-owned guns, stating that the State – and the State only – should be trusted with firearms.

But the Italian case is not an isolated incident.

The arrest of the director of the Belgian Proofing House last November (goo.gl/SDR6CV) and the repeated cases of theft of military-grade weaponry and high explosives from military installations in Europe (goo.gl/wBT3oN – goo.gl/wV6Yzc) show the truth:

Every firearm taken away by the State from its legal civilian owner and every firearm removed from the legal market is potentially one more gun available to criminals and terrorists on the black market.

Those who advocate mass confiscation or centralized storage of firearms held by gun owners, manufacturers, distributors and gun shops advocate massive leakage of those firearms on the black market and towards the hands of criminals and terrorists.

Mass confiscations, centralized storage and gun bans will arm criminals and terrorists and make Europe less safe.


We do have to think more in a Euro context on some of these things folks.:)

Grizzly 45

Although this applies to an IPSC competitions just remember that this can apply to hunters too if you should decide to take a trip to some non PC non EU country.

The lesson to take from this is......
Take this as a warning: just because an "exception" is in the books, that doesn't automatically mean that your government will grant to you that "exception" – and even if it should, "exceptions" are easily revoked or removed.

https://www.gunsweek.com/en/events/news/troubles-ahead-2017-ipsc-rifle-world-shoot

Cass

Very apt and an argument we are all blue in the face trying to get across.

cavan shooter

Shocking what has happened in London it's about time Europe looks to taking these dangerous and often modified vans of the streets.

Grizzly 45

True,no one needs a van with more than 4 cubic meters cargo capacity.
So whats your next brilliant move Herr Junkner and you Sir Julian King to keep us all safer??
Break out the hashtags,coloured chalk and candles again?
And lets piss off the IPSC shooters as well by prohibiting them from taking their guns to Russia..THAT will stop those pesky Jihadists.

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So whats your next brilliant move Herr Junkner and you Sir Julian King to keep us all safer??

Internet censorship, these poor lads are reading terrible things on the interweb and going raving mad.

flutered

one of the terrorests had irish id, thanks francis her predessor and of course ms zappone of the senic route exes

Grizzly 45

http://praguemonitor.com/2017/06/08/eu-firearms-directive-inappropriate-czech-minister-says
Bit late ,got it sent to me.

Grizzly 45

Just passed in their lower parliment house , by 16 votes , the right for liscensed Czech gun holders to have automaticly concealed weapons carry permits as well.
Has to go to the senate next,but its expected to be a walk thru there.

Amazing a EU country that has a high enough bar on aquiring firearms by testing written,oral and practical actually allows it's citizens to conceal carry and own full auto guns,and tells Brussels where to get off on meddling with its gun laws.....
Place is becoming the Texas of the EU.:D Wonder what citizenship requirements and refugee applications for Western EU citizens is like out there...??:D

Grizzly 45

http://www.hoy.es/internacional/union-europea/portugal-alerta-robo-20170701125516-nt.html

And of course military weapons are never used in crime in the EU.:rolleyes:

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

http://www.hoy.es/internacional/union-europea/portugal-alerta-robo-20170701125516-nt.html

And of course military weapons are never used in crime in the EU.:rolleyes:

From google translate

The army has stated in a statement that the weapons stolen from the Tancos warehouse are "9mm rounds and 9mm bullets" and the Portuguese newspaper Diário de Noticias has specified that at least four grenade launchers, 120 grenades, 1,500 bullets, have disappeared. 20 tear gas pumps.

The same newspaper gathers the statements of General Loureiro dos Santos, who has warned that such a large amount of war weapons can only be sold in the "international black market".

The Observatory for Security, Organized Crime and Terrorism has warned that there is a very high risk that it will end up in the hands of terrorist organizations.