MORE crap on the way.

BattleCorp

Was there a debate on March 15th?

Any outcome?

Grizzly 45

Posted outcome two comments ago. But enjoy sitting thru the TWO HOURS of debate here to see people who havent a clue talking about things they want to ban,and ultimately are at fault themselves in not implimenting thier own law that they brought in on deacts in 2008!!Not to mind being in violation of their own rules on not having done an impact assesment study or reading their own EU human rights charter,on rights of the individual to peacefully enjoy their possesions and due compensation for such.

!http://www.europarl.europa.eu/ep-live/en/committees/video?event=20160315-1500-COMMITTEE-IMCO!
Short story long Britan France,Italy and Belguim are pushing this and the Frogs dont want to pay compensation for literally hundreds of semi auto rifles,AND shotguns and handguns!! Dunno why Britan is pushing their crap gun laws on the EU,they will hopefully be gone out of it by June!Some are saying its pig lover Camerons bargining chips ...Who knows?

Either which way if you are on Facebook.Follow Firearms unitedireland,or Firearms United ,or have a look at www.allforshooters.com to keep you up to speed as whats going on.As our organisations seem to be, as usual, argueing about what shade of brown ****e is.:rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Well the EU let the cat out of the bag on this.Confiscation and nothing else will do them.:mad::mad::mad:
However as said in violation of their own EU rules.Going to be a vey long year folks.


https://www.all4shooters.com/en/Shooting/law/EU-gun-ban-IMCO-meeting-confiscation-without-compensation/

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Short story long Britan France,Italy and Belguim are pushing this and the Frogs dont want to pay compensation for literally hundreds of semi auto rifles,AND shotguns and handguns!! Dunno why Britan is pushing their crap gun laws on the EU,they will hopefully be gone out of it by June!Some are saying its pig lover Camerons bargining chips ...Who knows?

Either which way if you are on Facebook.Follow Firearms unitedireland,or Firearms United ,or have a look at www.allforshooters.com to keep you up to speed as whats going on.As our organisations seem to be, as usual, argueing about what shade of brown ****e is.:rolleyes:

And Germany is against the ban. EU usually muddles through things - ref the migrant crisis - but Germany mostly gets what it wants.

Depends on how badly France wants a ban, they are the other EU heavyweight.

Fingers crossed Merkel stays politically crippled long enough that she won't antagonise more voters before next year's elections ove there.

Grizzly 45

France would be cutting their own throat as they actually have a hunters&fishers party in the assembly.They hold about 25% of the national vote and could be persuaded to go more towards the right if they felt threatned. Plus in france it would be a job and a half to confiscate and collect semi autos under the wording of some EU legislation. Like arms suited for military calibers.France and Italy have a prohibition on that already.Hence plenty of 10mm Colt 45 .222 ruger mini14s or 300 win magnum.Plus isnt going to look ridicilous in a country that technically allows a French citizen to own a fully functional main battle TANK!!
Yes that is possible under the firearms law.Provided you render it inoperative once off the military range.Done by taking out the breech block and firing mechanism and dropping it off at your local Gendamiere apprently.:eek:
Deacts how are ya!!:rolleyes:
Italy,well thier gun laws are chaotic,like France they have huge amounts of "war surplus" hidden about the countryside in both criminal and legal hands and it seems to be how well you know the local cops and are willing to pony up to get a liscense for all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff.

Belguim..international hotspot,especially Brussells for black market firearms,second only to Kaliningrad for illegal arms. Known joke about the Belgian surplus markets up to and proably still today.Buy the deact at one corner of the market,around the corner is somone selling the react kit.

Maybe a bit of getting your own railway sleepers out of your eyes before attending to the dust in your neighbours eyes might be a good idea??

goz83

I want a tank

long range shooter

goz83 wrote: »

I want a tank

I have an old fish tank here if you need one;)

Grizzly 45

The Judas confesses.:mad:
Meet our enemy. French interior minister Bernard Cazeneuve,
Along with Treaas May Uk home secetary and PM David Cameron.
UTTER DISGRACE those three.:mad:

/www.all4shooters.com/en/Shooting/law/EU-Gun-Ban-French-Ministry-Internal-Affairs-responsibility/

long range shooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The Judas confesses.:mad:
Meet our enemy. French interior minister Bernard Cazeneuve,
Along with Treaas May Uk home secetary and PM David Cameron.
UTTER DISGRACE those three.:mad:

/www.all4shooters.com/en/Shooting/law/EU-Gun-Ban-French-Ministry-Internal-Affairs-responsibility/

Incredible,Once again it shows politicians stabbing you in the back.
No wonder the French shooting community shouts treason.
Hope the socalled politicians got a close look at what happended in Brussel today,and how many of the terrorists there that had a legal firearmslicense.
Once again the politicians shows they are nothing but a bunch of headless chickens.

OzCam

And you expected anything different from May & Cameron? Seriously?

Cazeneuve is just trying to distract French voters & cover his arse.

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The Judas confesses.:mad:
Meet our enemy. French interior minister Bernard Cazeneuve,
Along with Treaas May Uk home secetary and PM David Cameron.
UTTER DISGRACE those three.:mad:

/www.all4shooters.com/en/Shooting/law/EU-Gun-Ban-French-Ministry-Internal-Affairs-responsibility/

Shouldn't be too long before a security "expert" the likes of Tom Clonan, starts spouting nonsense and gets our lot to row in behind this rubbish.

Grizzly 45

It looks better than what has gone before, even the Deact standards are being questioned. Like thefact that is it necessary to redo every already deacted firearm up to the new proposed standards?

Looks like the semi autos are safe,apart from those who have been converted from select or full auto to semi auto and vice versa.Good sense is being applied [finally! ] on the fact that formm doesnt follow function and that a few countries have tried this nonsense of looks like and failed miserably in legislation. Maybe they might try limiting mag capacity to 3 or 5 shots for those with detachable mags...Bit unclear as to where thats going.Am still reading this.

BUT there is still plenty of room for deaths by a 1000 cuts to us:(.
Things like cumpulsory medical tests, anytime spot checks on security of storage,and proof of competance for all. Online sales of guns and ammo being made face to face transactions for final handovers and alot on what will be considerd vital components of a firearm.Which would make our lives a bit easier.things like barrel,slide,chamber ,frame,reciver,bolt and bolt carrier.Intrestingly the amendments also want to make silencers a NON VITAL COMPONENT part.Which would be very intresting for our laws here.
As well as that it if it goes ahead AGS will definately have to upgrade PULSE as there will be a lot more details required on things like spare barrells etc going with the gun and indefinate storage of data on all firearms,even on end of life and destroyed guns.

Read for yourselves here.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-%2F%2FEP%2F%2FNONSGML+COMPARL+PE-578.822+01+DOC+PDF+V0%2F%2FEN

Cass

One thing that stands out reading the new proposals are that most things exist in some from in Ireland already. The outrage seems to be from countries that don't already have that level of restriction. For example:

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Looks like the semi autos are safe,apart from those who have been converted from select or full auto to semi auto and vice versa.

We don't have the option. It's semit auto or manual loading. No full auto.

Things like cumpulsory medical tests,

When don't have medical tests, although the idea was floated and quickly shot down for cost and feasibility reasons, but we do already sign away medical privacy.

anytime spot checks on security of storage

Already have this

,and proof of competance for all.

Already have this.

Online sales of guns and ammo being made face to face transactions for final handovers and

For the most part we have this. With dealers asking for licenses, etc upfront and some requiring a face to face meet for the first transaction. The thing that stands out for me is the rest of this bit when they say the authorities must validate the the identities of the parties before any deal is done means anyone selling a gun privately may have to use a dealer and wait on Garda approval before finishing a deal.

alot on what will be considerd vital components of a firearm.Which would make our lives a bit easier.things like barrel,slide,chamber ,frame,reciver,bolt and bolt carrier.Intrestingly the amendments also want to make silencers a NON VITAL COMPONENT part.Which would be very intresting for our laws here.

If i'm not mistaken EU directives are to a minimum, not the standard. By that i mean the Irish government cannot make them less than what the EU says they are, but can enforce tighter controls. So they can still leave them as firearms in their own right meaning nothing changes.

As for the receiver, bolts, etc. well they're already established as component parts here, so another case of nothing going to change much.

As well as that it if it goes ahead AGS will definately have to upgrade PULSE as there will be a lot more details required on things like spare barrells etc going with the gun and indefinate storage of data on all firearms,even on end of life and destroyed guns.

No harm. It's been called for, for years. It's an out of date, unproven, unrealiable and frankly unfit for purpose system that according to out last Minister for justice (Shatter) is used more as a social media app than a recording facility.

It looks better than what has gone before, even the Deact standards are being questioned. Like thefact that is it necessary to redo every already deacted firearm up to the new proposed standards?

There is a serious amount on de-acts. It appears numerous times throughout the document. As said, i'm not sure how well they can enforce any new policy on already de-activated guns. Whatever about here where it's all recorded, in other countries where they may not be.

Good sense is being applied [finally! ] on the fact that formm doesnt follow function and that a few countries have tried this nonsense of looks like and failed miserably in legislation. Maybe they might try limiting mag capacity to 3 or 5 shots for those with detachable mags...Bit unclear as to where thats going.Am still reading this.

The 3 round limit is for "semi auto long firearm". I assume this means rifles and shotguns. If so then the shotguns are the same as we already have, but for semi autos its a problem. My restricted license allows me to have more than that so any reduction would not only do away with the valid reason i gave to get the restricted license, but also destroy all sporting events where i use my rifle.

With recent events showing who is to blame for these proposals you cannot argue anything except it's a kneejerk reaction to a situation they cannot control.

OzCam

Vicky Ford has done a great job in trying to sort out the mess that the Commission presented. It may not be perfect yet, but it's much better than it was. I note that some of her rejections were quite firm.

Credit where it's due.

Grizzly 45

We don't have the option. It's semit auto or manual loading. No full auto.

yes we dont have tHAT option per se.But we do have a few folk in the SA community that have a few "Franken guns" Guns that started off their lives as military select fire and have been permantly and proof house converted to semi auto .Its not huge in the SA community here but it is one that exists.Then there is the future on this too. Supposing this tempoary cap on semi rifles is lifted whenever we get around to a new govt in power..And hypothecially I would like a original sturm gewehr Mp44 [Chance would be a fine thing I could afford one at 4 grand] There are German companies [Neidermayer in Munich ]making prefectly legal and unchangable back to select fire versions guns from deacts or kit guns.Considering the Germans have the control of war weaponary act that prohibits selling reradily convertible to select /full auto fire to the GP and any gun design must be submitted to the Federal police labatory for a examination to see if the design is reversible/convertable with normal household tools[lathes and milling machines arent considerrd normal domestic tools] Once passed by the BKA,they are freely for sale depending on classification and appropriate liscense aquirement.Would such guns be classified as Sect A under this directive? If yes it "COULD" preclude folks from aquiring cheap converted M2 carbines for gallery rifle for example. Not to mind peeing off a load of Swiss lads who served in the military.You have the option of having your personal select fire service rifle being dehorned to semi auto to take home as a keepsake and as a thanks for your national service from your nation! Many converted SIG550s been used in shootings in Europe??

When don't have medical tests, although the idea was floated and quickly shot down for cost and feasibility reasons, but we do already sign away medical privacy.

Yeah we do,but it could be made a lot more stringent under the directive.Here its still a sort of "well how are you Mr Cass? Garnd Doc no bother! Not feeling anyway undr the weather?Nope! Grand so ,you are fine." To a you are on the couch telling Dr Nutter your innermost angst thoughts of your inner child for a dozen sessions at 180 euros a pop! This is Germany if you are under 25 applying for a cF handgun for the first time.Not as bad as that but remember the Irish govt rule of busisness."Screw as much, as many timese out of your victim for as little return as possible." Also, how does my cough rhumatizz and blood sugar level concerns stop another Bataclan style attack more importantly?Is this a way to cull out older shooters too?"Ah your ol bit of deafness is preventing you hearing 20 noisey hill walkers coming thru the glen and you might mistake them for deer.Liscense refused!" type nonsense?

For the most part we have this. With dealers asking for licenses, etc upfront and some requiring a face to face meet for the first transaction. The thing that stands out for me is the rest of this bit when they say the authorities must validate the the identities of the parties before any deal is done means anyone selling a gun privately may have to use a dealer and wait on Garda approval before finishing a deal.

Nailed it!

If i'm not mistaken EU directives are to a minimum, not the standard. By that i mean the Irish government cannot make them less than what the EU says they are, but can enforce tighter controls. So they can still leave them as firearms in their own right meaning nothing changes.

Yeeeahh, but I was thinking more along the directives itself bein enforced as a point of legality in an application.IOW AGS has accepted as proven in one DC court case in Limerick by their own acting technical expert in a written submission that the EU noise directive requiring noise to be limited AT SOURCE,IE a guns muzzle or car exhaust on a boy racer. Is a perfectly ligitimate and acceptable good reason to aquire a silencer.IOW they ACCEPT the EU directive as trumping their concoted refusals excuses.I guess a good few supers didnt get that memo yet,as with the last EU directive on ammo limits,which is default EU wide 500 rounds per firearm.

As for the receiver, bolts, etc. well they're already established as component parts here, so another case of nothing going to change much.

Again a more legal point that if applied,you couldnt be arrested and charged with having " firearm components" because you had a long wooden Nagant rifle stock and you were making it into or had made it into a reading lamp or a demilled revolver cylinder as a pencil holder on your desk,or had a salt and pepper pot set shaped like two shotgun cartidges..All three of these crazies have happened here.

No harm. It's been called for, for years. It's an out of date, unproven, unrealiable and frankly unfit for purpose system that according to out last Minister for justice (Shatter) is used more as a social media app than a recording facility

.

Agred and concur.

There is a serious amount on de-acts. It appears numerous times throughout the document. As said, i'm not sure how well they can enforce any new policy on already de-activated guns. Whatever about here where it's all recorded, in other countries where they may not be

Think its only us and Sweden[quelle surprise!] that do this. From what I gather it will only apply to old deacts if you intend to sell yours,or you have a machine gun like a GPMG,etc that has to we welded solid.Or new stuff coming on the market will fall under this.Otherwise this is unenforceable nonsense,it would apply alright here to our film and TV armourers and alot of their stuff and their blank firers converted from real life guns.

The 3 round limit is for "semi auto long firearm". I assume this means rifles and shotguns. If so then the shotguns are the same as we already have, but for semi autos its a problem. My restricted license allows me to have more than that so any reduction would not only do away with the valid reason i gave to get the restricted license, but also destroy all sporting events where i use my rifle.

Again,with the IPSC and other market in Europe,I cant see this flying very far.For hunting maybe and it is pretty much the standard for semi rifles used for hunting in the EU.But again,what happens if you buy a whole bunch of 3,5,10 round mags and practise a modified "New York reload" and a roll of duct tape??

With recent events showing who is to blame for these proposals you cannot argue anything except it's a kneejerk reaction to a situation they cannot control.

That is an utter fact!! and this is still only a draft amendment.So it is still imperative we lobby our organisations TDs and MEPs that this still needs work. Or better still junking and stay with whats there as it isnt broke and doesnt need fixing,just fine tuning.

Points we both missed.The proposed making a criminal offence of sharing firearms plans or 3D programmes on the Net to make firearms components?? Are they thinking a advanced defacto restriction or ban on making mags??A tad bit late then with that too,anduntil somone makes a pressure proof gun barrel on a 3D printer that doesnt cost 2 grand plus to make.I cant see any gang bangers and IS lads lining up to buy 120 grand printers or learn CAD.

Another, DIY work on your gun is proably going to be only allowed by a qualified gunsmith.And before there is mass panic here in that we cant put a screw driver to them ever again.It proably will mean [going by most Continental definitions of gunsmithing]

Anything that creates metal chips or spall or requires heat to work on. IOW things like threading barrells, mounting scope blocks on a barrel,drilling and tapping stuff on metal,soldering or welding.Making an utter new part or fitting it in a raw state.Drop in replacement parts are fine.Wood stocks,painting and blueing as they arent affecting pressure parts or the workings are still DIY.

TBH,that is one I agree with. Go to any gunshop here and you will see some utter disasters of DIY gunsmithing or repair by previous owners or gun dealers themselves for sale. Being a shoe salesman for 30 years doesnt make you a podontorist.Same as being a gun dealer shouldnt automatically make you a gunsmith either.

BattleCorp

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Another, DIY work on your gun is proably going to be only allowed by a qualified gunsmith.And before there is mass panic here in that we cant put a screw driver to them ever again.It proably will mean [going by most Continental definitions of gunsmithing]

Anything that creates metal chips or spall or requires heat to work on. IOW things like threading barrells, mounting scope blocks on a barrel,drilling and tapping stuff on metal,soldering or welding.Making an utter new part or fitting it in a raw state.Drop in replacement parts are fine.Wood stocks,painting and blueing as they arent affecting pressure parts or the workings are still DIY.

TBH,that is one I agree with. Go to any gunshop here and you will see some utter disasters of DIY gunsmithing or repair by previous owners or gun dealers themselves for sale. Being a shoe salesman for 30 years doesnt make you a podontorist.Same as being a gun dealer shouldnt automatically make you a gunsmith either.

Just to satisfy my curiosity, do we actually have "qualified" gunsmiths here in Ireland?

I'm not doubting anybodies technical ability to do the work, I'm just wondering is there a FETAC or FAS or other similar standard like there would be for a qualified plumber, electrician or mechanical engineer etc.?

In other words, are gunsmiths accredited here in Ireland?

And does a gunsmith have to be or work for a registered firearms dealer on his premises?

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

yes we dont have tHAT option per se.

It might be big in Europe, and i only understand half of what you said (:D) about the other stuff, but for here (and not a case of looking out for ourselves) out of a population of some 167 semi auto rifle owners how many fall into this category? My point is the rest of Europe would suffer far more than Ireland.

Yeah we do,

Since when?

We declare our GP info and any other doctors we attend. If any of them fall into the category of therapist, etc. i'm sure there are checks done. This does not preclude you from applying or even getting a license/firearm. However i've never had to take a medical exam, nor has anyone i've ever met or spoken to. now that i think about it, no one i know has even had their doctor contacted.

As i said above there was talk to introduce this a few years ago by some association or such of Doctors. When their proposal was broken down it fell apart due to cost, availability of therapists/doctors, the amount of time to fully process someone, the fact that it's a never ending cycle (you cannot predict or legislate for crazy).

.......... the EU noise directive requiring noise to be limited AT SOURCE,IE a guns muzzle or car exhaust on a boy racer. Is a perfectly ligitimate and acceptable good reason to aquire a silencer.

Understandable and i agree with you. However, and this is pure best guess from memory and i'll need to check it out, i believe the Irish Government can still enforce current law as long as it's not less lenient than EU directive. So if the EU relax things on the suppressor front the DoJ can still require them to be licensed as they are now.

.........as with the last EU directive on ammo limits,which is default EU wide 500 rounds per firearm.

As per the European Firearms Pass? Again, and in keeping with the above, the DoJ can impose a stricter limit which they have done. 100 as the minimum. Its why your EFP does not allow you to hold 500 rounds if your actual license says 100.

All three of these crazies have happened here.

Least we not forget the cartridge display court cases and other such nonsense.

Think its only us and Sweden[quelle surprise!] that do this. ............. Otherwise this is unenforceable nonsense..........

No argument there.

Again,with the IPSC and other market in Europe,I cant see this flying very far.

God i hope not.

But again,what happens if you buy a whole bunch of 3,5,10 round mags and practise a modified "New York reload" and a roll of duct tape??

Here? I get thrown off the range.

Points we both missed

Hardly surprising. It reads like stereo instructions.

I cant see any gang bangers and IS lads lining up to buy 120 grand printers or learn CAD.

Em, no. You won't see many legit lads doing it either. If i had 120,000 i'd have to be dragged out of the gun shop, crying and kicking.

Another, DIY work on your gun is proably going to be only allowed by a qualified gunsmith.And before there is mass panic here in that we cant put a screw driver to them ever again.It proably will mean [going by most Continental definitions of gunsmithing]

I get what you're saying so dont' confuse what i'm about to say with that. I think, and again i'll need to do some serious digging, but i think the law says that work on firearm should only be carried out by a competent person, aka gunsmith/RFD.

That again is a pure guess based on something i think i read, maybe, sometime, i'm not sure. So i'll come back to this.

Same as being a gun dealer shouldn't automatically make you a gunsmith either.

It most certainly does not.

BattleCorp wrote: »

Just to satisfy my curiosity, do we actually have "qualified" gunsmiths here in Ireland?

Nope.

There is no accreditation for gunsmiths.

And does a gunsmith have to be or work for a registered firearms dealer on his premises?

They have to be one. IOW they pay for an RFD license like someone that just sells stuff.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

It might be big in Europe, and i only understand half of what you said (:D) about the other stuff, but for here (and not a case of looking out for ourselves) out of a population of some 167 semi auto rifle owners how many fall into this category? My point is the rest of Europe would suffer far more than Ireland.

ASFIK about 10 +/- people right now. Its more a future worry as I said of surpluus stuff becomes available that WAS once select fire and was properly and irrevocably converted to semi auto by an approved method,or a semi auto gun that uses select fire parts because of their durability. I mean you can buy in Germany a genuine Colt XM 177 that was in the grease wrapper for the last 34 years in Vietnam in a warehouse,but has been professionally converted to semi auto only by a gunsmith and passed by the Federal ballistics lab as ok for civillian ownership.Why should that be suddenly a danger to all and sundry?
Some folks will say "milspec " parts are the more durable parts.I'd question that,considering that milspec means mass produced,more or less within govt required tolerances and cheap as Hell.But cheap can get alot of people shooting. Like 450 euros for a new in grease Russian SKS and 100 euros buys alot of surplus 7.62x39,compared to a bare bones ,no stock,fore end or pistol grip or sights build it up yourself literally 950 euro Oberland upper and lower.

Since when?

We declare our GP info and any other doctors we attend. If any of them fall into the category of therapist, etc. i'm sure there are checks done. This does not preclude you from applying or even getting a license/firearm. However i've never had to take a medical exam, nor has anyone i've ever met or spoken to. now that i think about it, no one i know has even had their doctor contacted.

I agree but my point is once "EU laws and directives " are raised here in Ireland we have a tendency to follow them blindly and unquestionly especially if there is money being made available to do so.

As i said above there was talk to introduce this a few years ago by some association or such of Doctors. When their proposal was broken down it fell apart due to cost, availability of therapists/doctors, the amount of time to fully process someone, the fact that it's a never ending cycle (you cannot predict or legislate for crazy).

Agree again.But never forget that with "EU law following" busybodies like that shrink that suggested that previously will suddenly feel empowered to push their agendas and make a case for their services,not to mind pork barrel financing off our tax euros.

Understandable and i agree with you. However, and this is pure best guess from memory and i'll need to check it out, i believe the Irish Government can still enforce current law as long as it's not less lenient than EU directive. So if the EU relax things on the suppressor front the DoJ can still require them to be licensed as they are now.

They can BUT as usch it

A

s per the European Firearms Pass? Again, and in keeping with the above, the DoJ can impose a stricter limit which they have done. 100 as the minimum. Its why your EFP does not allow you to hold 500 rounds if your actual license says 100.

Per the legislation of the EU.The pass does state it is not succeeding local legislation.IOW if your super is saying he can only willing to give 100 rounds because it is "the law".You can say under which law?Eu or national?I told my lads about this and they agreed to 500 rounds per gun,although still mumbling about guidelines.
One thing I've always pointed out to them with this ammo thing is.Its not that I will have 500 rounds per gun at all times in the house.Its a nice to have option for a good bulk buy deal or if you are going clay busting thats an afternoons worth of ammo.They seem happy with that explanation or reason too.

Here? I get thrown off the range.

Meant more in the context of the EU banning high cap mags and the way any criminally intended ones would get around it.

BTW it on further reading doesnt look likely either it means they stay in the B category and move from B7 to B4 or vice versa.

Hardly surprising. It reads like stereo instructions.

Was thinking more IKEA flat pak myself.:)

I get what you're saying so dont' confuse what i'm about to say with that. I think, and again i'll need to do some serious digging, but i think the law says that work on firearm should only be carried out by a competent person, aka gunsmith/RFD

It does,but it doesnt define what WORK is exactly. [How can cerakoting be in anyway detrimental to the guns saftey?]
And thats a serious problem,especially if you are selling as a retailer a product that you know is faulty without warning the buyer as well.Cevat emptor notwithstanding,if I buy a car and after the test drive the steering knuckle comes out of the track rod end because it was a wrong fit from a different model but was put in there to pass a NCT who didnt pick up on it.They just saw a "new part"[aka wrong 2nd hand part cleaned and degreased] and wrote it off as a pass. This hapened to me with the jeep a week after I bought it and had driven over a speed bump! Had that happened at any speed on a motorway the consequences could have been fatal!! IOW the bollocks who sold me this could have been charged with reckless endangerment and knowingly selling a faulty product[.If i could have found him that is]

To put it in a guns perspective.You as a gun dealer who fixes guns with your screwdriver set from LIDIL and just re hung the gunshop door with them, have just"fixed" a sprung rib on a shotgun with a brazing torch,because you can weld. Last welding job you did was the cattle crush gate 10 years ago for uncle paddy.A spot of cold blue to cover the weld and it will be grand.

Sell it to some sucker for a couple of hundred quid.
Two weeks said customer is back looking like Wile Coyote after one of his inventions didnt work, wearing bits of the gun you sold him with the most litigatious lawyer he can find in tow for product defect liability.Where do you stand now??
You are got under EU product law legislation.It why its two distinctive trades in the EU and one of them is a guild trade. This is another reason our club went hard on silenced guns coming on the range without a proof house letter.Some of the threaded guns,the cans were putting shots everywhere bar on the paper. Saftey costs abit extra,but if it is your ass on the line both as seller and user...

Nope.
There is no accreditation for gunsmiths

.

Very true,but if the guy has his scroll hanging from Holland &Holland or Merkel or the like in his shop,it is a pretty good assumption he is up to the job,and if he is a smart bear he will say whether he can do the job or not.

Cass

Most of what i'm about to say is based on an Irish perspective and current Irish law, because regardless of what changes are made it'll require a change to our firearms laws to take effect here. The reason for distinguishing our laws against Europe is the "freedom" they have in Europe is not what we have here. Hence my assertion that the majority of what is being proposed already exists here, and the little bits that might change things here apply to such a small amount of people that the DoJ (should they decide to implement any aspect) will not view it as a problem to the larger shooting community.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

ASFIK about 10 +/- people right now.

So take 167 people out of some 140,000 currently licensed people. Thats 0.001%. Then take the 10 or so from that 167 and it's 5% of 0.001%.

Add to all this the fact that such firearms may only be of interest to a tiny minority and even then you still need to show good reason. Something that may not be the case in most of Europe. IOW they can buy firearms they want, rather than only for a specific purpose.

Just playing devil's advocate here. Not arguing for the sake of it.

I agree but my point is once "EU laws and directives " are raised here in Ireland we have a tendency to follow them blindly and unquestionly especially if there is money being made available to do so.

Agree again.But never forget that with "EU law following" busybodies like that shrink that suggested that previously will suddenly feel empowered to push their agendas and make a case for their services,not to mind pork barrel financing off our tax euros.

I'll respond to both together.

The money is not there for ballistics testing, proper registered competency courses, proofing, etc. So do you think money will be made available for this? Not a chance.

Per the legislation of the EU.The pass does state it is not succeeding local legislation.IOW if your super is saying he can only willing to give 100 rounds because it is "the law".You can say under which law?Eu or national?I told my lads about this and they agreed to 500 rounds per gun,although still mumbling about guidelines.

There is no legal limits on ammunition. The limits in the Commissioner's Guidelines are only what "could be" proposed to be sufficient. The principal act (Section 3) does not give any limit. It's why the minimum is 100, but people can have 500, 1,000, 5,000, etc.

So while EU says 500, it still cannot trump Irish law, and as there is no minimum/maximum in Irish law i cannot see 500 being the new standard. After saying that i always double the amount i need as empty cases are classed as live ones, and when i put forward this reason it trumps everything as i'm saying to stay within the law i have to (not need, but must) have this limit. Better than getting into a debate on EU/Irish rules.

Meant more in the context of the EU banning high cap mags and the way any criminally intended ones would get around it.

They'll get around it regardless. This is one the core faults with this proposal. It will not effect criminality in any way. they are discussing the restrictions, further restrictions, new restrictions on legally held firearms. Firearms they already know about. It's the AKs from out side the Schengen Area that is the problem. Improper Border control, lack of communications, certain firearm being allowed in one country and not in another, etc, etc.

It does,but it doesnt define what WORK is exactly. [How can cerakoting be in anyway detrimental to the guns saftey?]

And it never will. It's why many other things are vaguely described, to purposely leave that ambiguity so it can be interpreted by the Gardaí involved.

With regard to liability, etc. If a person, whether competent or not, carries out he work there is traceability, and liability. For someone doing DIY there is none. However such a move would require registration and certification of the persons to carry out the work. This requires money, and the DoJ/An Gardaí to officially recognise them. As they have not done this thus far i cannot see it happening now.

Very true,but if the guy has his scroll hanging from Holland &Holland or Merkel or the like in his shop,it is a pretty good assumption he is up to the job,and if he is a smart bear he will say whether he can do the job or not.

He could be the head gunsmith for Beretta for the last 50 years. In Ireland it holds no status because there is no official recognition.

I'd like to see some sort of course/accreditation for gun smithing. Would cut out the "fly by nights" or n"self appointed" gun smiths that are self trained. not the two words you want to hear when having someone work on an item that produces tens of thousands of pressure beside your face.

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

There is no legal limits on ammunition. The limits in the Commissioner's Guidelines are only what "could be" proposed to be sufficient. The principal act (Section 3) does not give any limit. It's why the minimum is 100, but people can have 500, 1,000, 5,000, etc.

So while EU says 500, it still cannot trump Irish law, and as there is no minimum/maximum in Irish law i cannot see 500 being the new standard. After saying that i always double the amount i need as empty cases are classed as live ones, and when i put forward this reason it trumps everything as i'm saying to stay within the law i have to (not need, but must) have this limit. Better than getting into a debate on EU/Irish rules.

500 rounds wouldn't last me a good weekend if I was in the mood.

And I'm sure there are a lot of shooters far more active than me.

turismo2142

@ Grizzly re "supposing this tempoary cap on semi rifles is lifted whenever we get around to a new govt in power."

I know this is a bit off topic but this is a particular bugbear of mine.

There is no temporary cap on the licensing of semi auto CF rifles in force! None, whatsoever!!!!

Any refusal of a S/A cf cert by ags based on a "this is what we're thinking about doing in the future" statement made by a former government is unlawful and invalid. The same rationale re such licences applies today as did last year or five years ago. The law has not changed one iota.

If you want a SA CF rifle apply for one, get refused, lawyer up and get it in the DC on appeal and then seek your costs.

Seriously Grizz mate, there's no cap/ban

You might get a letter saying it's the intention of the executive to ban these in the future and you'll loose your gun then but frankly if they do ban in the future it'll no doubt go the way of the CF pistols which were grandfathered for existing holders so my advice is to get in now!!!

Grizzly 45

That is very true Turismo,and well spotted.:)However would it not be possible that the CS will just sit on it and stall it out as this is pending legislation/statute due for enactment?If thats the correct legal phraseology?Until this is enacted in X number of months,years?Or does he have to consider this under current legislation irrespective of the new pending statute?

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Mt.


I'll respond to both together.

The money is not there for ballistics testing, proper registered competency courses, proofing, etc. So do you think money will be made available for this? Not a chance.

You can be assured they will be asking for a sub from the EU for anything to do with legislation ,including setting up the biggest waste of money that ballistic database.

They'll get around it regardless. This is one the core faults with this proposal. It will not effect criminality in any way. they are discussing the restrictions, further restrictions, new restrictions on legally held firearms. Firearms they already know about. It's the AKs from out side the Schengen Area that is the problem. Improper Border control, lack of communications, certain firearm being allowed in one country and not in another, etc, etc.

Nail.Head! Wish some of the dopes in Brussells would kapis that.Well according to them its the AKs from the Czech republic that werent properly converted from live to blank firers properly. Or criminals in the UK converting Sterlings or Mac 10s from deacts to live guns.Your own daft fault EU if you bring in legislation 8 years ago and sit on it until somthing happens.

And it never will. It's why many other things are vaguely described, to purposely leave that ambiguity so it can be interpreted by the Gardaí involved.

Which means having to sort it out in a court of law.Costing us and the State time and money,which judge is going to throw you in the nick for having shotgun shell condiment dispensers??Hence wouldnt it be a good thing that thre is some clarity made as to wht "parts or ammo" really is?

With regard to liability, etc. If a person, whether competent or not, carries out he work there is traceability, and liability. For someone doing DIY there is none. However such a move would require registration and certification of the persons to carry out the work. This requires money, and the DoJ/An Gardaí to officially recognise them. As they have not done this thus far i cannot see it happening now.

Again,I could see EU money being thrown at it or a PPP type operation being set up to deal with it.You know this country,if there is money to be screwed out of us they 'll do it.

He could be the head gunsmith for Beretta for the last 50 years. In Ireland it holds no status because there is no official recognition.
I'd like to see some sort of course/accreditation for gun smithing. Would cut out the "fly by nights" or n"self appointed" gun smiths that are self trained. not the two words you want to hear when having someone work on an item that produces tens of thousands of pressure beside your face.

I'd get the feeling it would be alot like my profession under new legislation,so long as you more or less know what you are doing you'll be grand and more importantly.. Just pay up our fees and demands so we can stay in a job and look like we arent costing the state any more money,and we'll be grander. EU qualifications???Sorry dont recognise them...[Think HICAP scenario]...ours or no ones.

Cass

turismo2142 wrote: »

There is no temporary cap on the licensing of semi auto CF rifles in force! None, whatsoever!!!!

100% correct.

So as you said if anyone really wants one, go for it.

You might get a letter saying it's the intention of the executive to ban these in the future and you'll loose your gun then but frankly if they do ban in the future it'll no doubt go the way of the CF pistols which were grandfathered for existing holders so my advice is to get in now!!!

I've had this discussion on the range with some lads that were looking at my semi auto. They are under the impression you cannot get one. To which i told them, "The Minister has said there is a temporary cap which there is not. Temporary caps are illegal. It's why we slated the sports coalition for suggesting one. However if the Minister made a statement in the dail declaring her intent to seek out a ban or restriction (much like the C/F handguns) then any new law can be applied as far back as to when she made the statement."

So in short, and very much like the pistols you can legally apply for and if necessary go to court. However like the pistol "ban" the Minister made his statement in November 2008 but the legislation did not come about until June of 2009. As the legislation said it was working retrospectively to his statement it meant anyone between Nov. 2008 and June 2009 that were issued a license lost it.

Same here. You can get one because as you said the law has not changed. Whether you loose or keep it depends on if the current Minister done the same, officially. Given the current climate, no Government, no real signs of one being done, possibility of another general election, and even when all this is sorted having to appoint a Minister and get back to business. It could be years before this becomes an issue, if ever (assuming we play our cards right in the FCP)

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

However would it not be possible that the CS will just sit on it and stall it out as this is pending legislation/statute due for enactment?If thats the correct legal phraseology?Until this is enacted in X number of months,years?

He/She cannot do that. They must apply the law as it is. Its not the duty off an Gardaí to apply non existent law or to legislate.

Also there is no pending legislation, or bill in the background. The Minister said it would be a temporary cap until a review is done and new legislation penned. Thing is she said this within the last 8 months or so and since then, and as above, quite a bit has changed.

.Or does he have to consider this under current legislation irrespective of the new pending statute?

Yup. As it is.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

You can be assured they will be asking for a sub from the EU for anything to do with legislation ,including setting up the biggest waste of money that ballistic database.

Correct.

Nail.Head! Wish some of the dopes in Brussells would kapis that.Well according to them its the AKs from the Czech republic that werent properly converted from live to blank firers properly. Or criminals in the UK converting Sterlings or Mac 10s from deacts to live guns.Your own daft fault EU if you bring in legislation 8 years ago and sit on it until somthing happens.

Correct

Which means having to sort it out in a court of law.Costing us and the State time and money,which judge is going to throw you in the nick for having shotgun shell condiment dispensers??Hence wouldnt it be a good thing that thre is some clarity made as to wht "parts or ammo" really is?

Correct.

Cannot disagree with any of that.

Again,I could see EU money being thrown at it or a PPP type operation being set up to deal with it.You know this country,if there is money to be screwed out of us they 'll do it.

This whole affair will fizzle out. Look at how far its come or changed since its first draft. You know it bat-sh*t crazy when even the politicians say its daft.

I'd get the feeling it would be alot like my profession under new legislation,so long as you more or less know what you are doing you'll be grand and more importantly.. Just pay up our fees and demands so we can stay in a job and look like we arent costing the state any more money,and we'll be grander. EU qualifications???Sorry dont recognise them...[Think HICAP scenario]...ours or no ones.

As long as the DoJ/Gardaí don't have to put an official stamp on anything it'll be let run whatever way people want to do it. Exactly like the current competency courses, etc. IOW non regulated.

turismo2142

The manifest distinction between now and 08/09 is the fact of a differential government. It's far more likely that an SI pause on cf s/a will be prospective only if it's effected by a different government. It'll take years to get their act together and if they do one could have had the firearm for years which does change matters.

I also question the legality of a revocation effected by a statutory instrument retrospectively which purports to revoke a licence made under primary legislation. To my knowledge this hasn't been tested.

It's a similar situation to the Bederev decision which effected scheduled drugs made under statutory instrument rather than by primary misuse of drugs legislation culminating in drugs like mdma etc not being prohibited for some time and undermining criminal prosecutions. Like most things in law though, it depends upon the judge one might draw in the high court as to whether or not you'd get anywhere.

Anyway. I'm seriously thinking of getting an m1 carbine. But I expect a trip to the DC. Which I'll be doing myself. :-/

But, have to put my s/a shotgun on a restricted cert first. One step at a time...

Cass

turismo2142 wrote: »

The manifest distinction between now and 08/09 is the fact of a differential government. It's far more likely that an SI pause on cf s/a will be prospective only if it's effected by a different government. It'll take years to get their act together and if they do one could have had the firearm for years which does change matters.

Absolutely.

I also question the legality of a revocation effected by a statutory instrument retrospectively which purports to revoke a licence made under primary legislation. To my knowledge this hasn't been tested.

I don't know.

I personally don't know anyone that fell into this category back in 08/09. I nearly did, but my FO told me not to sub as it'd be considered a new license and would fall foul of the statement/legislation. So i didn't.

It's a similar situation to the Bederev decision which effected scheduled drugs made under statutory instrument rather than by primary misuse of drugs legislation culminating in drugs like mdma etc not being prohibited for some time and undermining criminal prosecutions. Like most things in law though, it depends upon the judge one might draw in the high court as to whether or not you'd get anywhere.

Again i don't know.

My thinking is that no person wants to be the test case. Most people, in fact the majority, seem to be airing on the side of caution which as you said above has the knock on effect of creating a "self imposed ban" without any legislation.

Anyway. I'm seriously thinking of getting an m1 carbine. But I expect a trip to the DC. Which I'll be doing myself. :-/

If you go for it i'd be interested to hear how you get on. Whether it ends up in DC or not.

turismo2142

You're FO was more or less correct when he said not to sub. Since s.54 of the 2006 criminal justice act substitution applications for restricted firearm certificates were prohibited so every "change" constituted a new application with no regard for the previous certificate.

Anyways, my decision to go for the carbine will be dictated by how much I can get one for. I'm not paying full price for a firearm which is sitting on death row (with some chance of commutation), so to speak. I know there are a few around.

Frankly, you're right about people not wanting to be the test case. In the case of semi auto Cf rifles licences between Sep 15 and an ultimate ban, one cannot imagine it'll effect more than 20 or so people.

But, as you alluded to CASS, if anyone reading this is thinking about substitution of their existing semi auto CF rifle. DONT DO IT! It will be a new application and you might ultimately loose the replacement firearm. Possibly.

Grizzly 45

About 390 onwwards is what you would be looking at on the Continent.
Like everything its a who and what question.WHO made them plays alot in the price,as various companies made them for the US military,and companies Like Winchester or General Electric or Union Switxh have more value than say Inland.Same if you buy a civillian made one[Please dont,alot of them were POS's made up of welded together recivers .Iver Jhonston was one I think] and WHAT is its condition and what bits are with it?Sling?Buttstock pouch oiler etc? Obviously an ol beater will fetch less than a pristine new in the grease paratrooper model pulled out of some forgotton store house where it has been sleeping since 1950. But anything between 400/500 for a good condition,clean bore and functioning with standard and the M2 high cap 30 rounders is fair money.
Link http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=5893703

Grizzly 45

https://www.all4shooters.com/en/Shooting/law/EU-gun-ban-Vicky-Ford-draft/

funny old world.We have the 2nd most anti gun ownership country with a EU MEP who is taking a pro gun stance,while her UK boss is pushing a EU wide gun ban agenda.
We have a Polish MEP who is hated by her fellow Poles and cant even get her facts right on which EU shooting organisations were asked for their opinions on this legislation.
And lastly the French who are pushing for this legislation and have a political party dedicated to hunting and shooting rights,which SELLS OUT on this issue banning semi autos,to save their own traditional shooting hides.

Well, on that lst pointIt's good to see that in Ireland and the UK we haven't the monopoly of chucking others under the bus to save our own scaley hides.:rolleyes:

Cass

Bit of a write up.