Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 ***Updated Mod Note Post 1***

blueflame

culbaire wrote: »

Your use of an expletive says it all. It was a perfect performance was it? Since when have you a monopoly of knowledge? I have posted an alternative structure for Waterford. I stand by it. It is not "b****t either. Yours is an effort to shut down meaningful analysis of the reasons for the defeat yesterday. Its just your opinion. It is not gospel. People who post here are entitled to common courtesy. Counties that win All Irelands do so by rectifying problems not by trying to smooth over them.
I know every player yesterday did his level best. However the system is deeply flawed. That's the opinion of most Waterford supporters yesterday who could see the problems with a 1/2 man full forward line. That system would not beat Kilkenny either.

Apologies if you take offence Culbaire and you are correct everyone is entitled to their opinion, but my reaction is aimed more at the hysteria of abandonment and the likes of Loughnane bleating about failure of systems.

I have long argued against this system as you will see from many previous posts of mine, but i have come to appreciate the difficulty that other teams have with overcoming it. I am not papering over cracks I am merely refusing to panic and being realistic. A two man full forward line with players breaking from deep has the ability to cause any team trouble, especially if you have the right players in there with the right ball being delivered to them. We are not going to beat KK or Tipperary at the moment by opening the back door and letting them take us to pieces, ask Galway, Wexford or Limerick.

Yesterday we kept Tipperary to a reasonable score and had more than enough chances to have outscored them. Had we done so the media, the pundits and most on here would have been talking in glowing terms about the performance. This team is a young side who are trying to regain confidence, confidence that was destroyed on them last year and slowly but surely they are achieving this. The system is there for this year, it needs improving not abandoning and personally I feel that it is capable of causing KK difficulty - that is my opinion but we will have to get over Dublin first

thinkstoomuch1

deisedude wrote: »

How bad are Cork if ye can't beat us when we are so predictable?

Look you want to discuss Cork come to the Cork thread I'll happily engage in debate about them
I'm taking about waterford
Waterford don't have to worry about cork now Dublin they will beat but kk are waiting is my point and waterford have to change the system like culbaire said

If tipperary's can bear the system it's reasonable to expect the current all ireland champions to do so is it not now

thinkstoomuch1

Ropaire wrote: »

Ya its so beatable, we should have learned rhat after we lost all those games this year before Sunday. Know any other tunes? This one is getting as repetitive like the "cork won't lose twice" one did.

After every loss it's reasonable to examine a system and tweak it

Look at Dublin last year after Donegal

Cork this year the last two games changes it

Surely it's reasonable to say yes defence is absoultey excellent I'm not denying that and McGrath deserves huge huge credit for this but hurling is about attack and defence and statics show ist huge test against second best team county don't score enough



You must accept it's reasonable that kk with Reid alward larkin and power etc will score a lot with hogan also so waterford simply have to score more than there currently doing from play


Great managment learn from defeats

If McGrath does he could be great

But as of now it remains to be seen if he will change and he's good foundation to work off but unless he adds attacking dimensions and cohesion of defence to attack while it will beat most teams the reality imo is at the business end of the championship it won't be enough but more will be required


Yesterday showed waterford had lot be proud off but unfortunately it's a loss and players like Gleeson etc who want win know this so they are winners

Waterford simply imo threw everything at tipp but still lost so it's reasonable to say tweaking of this system is necessary imo

culbaire

blueflame wrote: »

Apologies if you take offence Culbaire and you are correct everyone is entitled to their opinion, but my reaction is aimed more at the hysteria of abandonment and the likes of Loughnane bleating about failure of systems.

I have long argued against this system as you will see from many previous posts of mine, but i have come to appreciate the difficulty that other teams have with overcoming it. I am not papering over cracks I am merely refusing to panic and being realistic. A two man full forward line with players breaking from deep has the ability to cause any team trouble, especially if you have the right players in there with the right ball being delivered to them. We are not going to beat KK or Tipperary at the moment by opening the back door and letting them take us to pieces, ask Galway, Wexford or Limerick.

Yesterday we kept Tipperary to a reasonable score and had more than enough chances to have outscored them. Had we done so the media, the pundits and most on here would have been talking in glowing terms about the performance. This team is a young side who are trying to regain confidence, confidence that was destroyed on them last year and slowly but surely they are achieving this. The system is there for this year, it needs improving not abandoning and personally I feel that it is capable of causing KK difficulty - that is my opinion but we will have to get over Dublin first

I understand where you are coming from even-though I dont fully agree. We might trouble Kilkenny but i could not see us beating them. We are too predictable at present. Cody is like an old fox. He spots every flaw in an opposing team. However we must first beat Dublin. The Dubs will fancy their chances against us and cannot be taken as a soft touch.

thinkstoomuch1

culbaire wrote: »

I understand where you are coming from even-though I dont fully agree. We might trouble Kilkenny but i could not see us beating them. We are too predictable at present. Cody is like an old fox. He spots every flaw in an opposing team. However we must first beat Dublin. The Dubs will fancy their chances against us and cannot be taken as a soft touch.

That's it exactly if flaws are in the system that fans can see have no doubt cody the greatest ever manager see this

blueflame

Agree, the system is not without flaws, but i believe with the experience of yesterday if we learn from it, we can beat Dublin and we can trouble KK. If we give KK space in our half of the field they can open us up.

tommy_tucker

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

If tipperary's can bear the system it's reasonable to expect the current all ireland champions to do so is it not now

Did they though,they won yes but they didn't unravel waterfords system,they didn't run in 7 goals, they didn't have a sniff of a goal, and Waterford couldn't hit a cows arse with a shovel.

thinkstoomuch1

tommy_tucker wrote: »

Did they though,they won yes but they didn't unravel waterfords system,they didn't run in 7 goals, they didn't have a sniff of a goal, and Waterford couldn't hit a cows arse with a shovel.

It's irrelevant what they won buy in the point is tippeary won

Dick phelan

It's been mentioned i think but yesterday i thought we really missed Paudie and not because of frees or anything.

Figsy32

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

That's it exactly if flaws are in the system that fans can see have no doubt cody the greatest ever manager see this

There's no such thing as a flawless system though. All you can do is try to hide your weaknesses and keep your strengths. That's what Waterford are doing atm. They have a lot of young lads with great talent and great engines like Dunford, Barron and Gleeson as well as grizzled veterans like Moran and Brick to win ball. They're keeping the house safe by not conceding goals and, although wasteful yesterday, have good long distance shooters like Gleeson, Fives, Moran. Between Shanahan and others coming from deep they have a goal threat as shown against Cork.

IMO they are a couple forwards short and not conditioned enouh because of the youth to compete with Kilkenny and Tipp on a man to man basis, as Culbaire advocates. They got close to Tipp without lads like Gleeson or Dunford firing like they have previously.

This is their best option at the moment I feel. By all means it should be tweaked depending on opposition but the general idea is the right one.

thinkstoomuch1

Figsy32 wrote: »

There's no such thing as a flawless system though. All you can do is try to hide your weaknesses and keep your strengths. That's what Waterford are doing atm. They have a lot of young lads with great talent and great engines like Dunford, Barron and Gleeson as well as grizzled veterans like Moran and Brick to win ball. They're keeping the house safe by not conceding goals and, although wasteful yesterday, have good long distance shooters like Gleeson, Fives, Moran. Between Shanahan and others coming from deep they have a goal threat as shown against Cork.

IMO they are a couple forwards short and not conditioned enouh because of the youth to compete with Kilkenny and Tipp on a man to man basis, as Culbaire advocates. They got close to Tipp without lads like Gleeson or Dunford firing like they have previously.

This is their best option at the moment I feel. By all means it should be tweaked depending on opposition but the general idea is the right one.

I see your point and yes yere not conceding but there's no real danger in attack and if kk get a lead the problem arises

The worry also is waterford in the last two games start slowly
You will get away with it against every team in the country but not Kilkenny who will blitz any team if they get the chance in a period of the game


I think the system prevents scores yes but fact it won't imo beat the big teams is the worry

A game is about a combination of attack and defence

thinkstoomuch1

Dick phelan wrote: »

It's been mentioned i think but yesterday i thought we really missed Paudie and not because of frees or anything.

He was a huge loss in terms general play fair enough but tippeary could argue Noel McGrath was just as big as a loss for them so it balanced out imo

letsseehere14

tommy_tucker wrote:

Did they though,they won yes but they didn't unravel waterfords system,they didn't run in 7 goals, they didn't have a sniff of a goal, and Waterford couldn't hit a cows arse with a shovel.

Perhaps Tipperarys forwards also did not perform on the day. A team that usually scores goals, maybe they had somewhat of an off day. Yet against this so called uber tight defence of Waterfords they still managed 21 points!!! Imagine if they happened on 1 goal? Waterford would have needed 25 to win. They scored 16! That's a big step up required.

Kilkenny would match Tipp and perhaps get a few goals. Does Waterford have the capability of scoring 25 plus points against these teams? That's the scoreline required at this stage of the season to win matches.

Talking about a solid defence is all well and good but ye still conceded 21 points. No better than what most teams do defensively.

thinkstoomuch1

letsseehere14 wrote: »

Perhaps Tipperarys forwards also did not perform on the day. A team that usually scores goals, maybe they had somewhat of an off day. Yet against this so called uber tight defence of Waterfords they still managed 21 points!!! Imagine if they happened on 1 goal? Waterford would have needed 25 to win. They scored 16! That's a big step up required.

Kilkenny would match Tipp and perhaps get a few goals. Does Waterford have the capability of scoring 25 plus points against these teams? That's the scoreline required at this stage of the season to win matches.

Talking about a solid defence is all well and good but ye still conceded 21 points. No better than what most teams do defensively.

That's a good post and similar to my views


Tippeary didn't even create a chance of goal and yes waterford didn't allow them that but kk will at least create goal chance

If kk get a goal waterford plan of containment isn't good enough in people have since may in the media said there's definitely an all ireland in waterford in the next few years


If that is so they need to show more ambitious plans going forward
Kk will be around for a while with the average age of the team around twenty five
I agree your point and it's well made in waterford defence still conceded twenty one points so while it prevented goals it showed imo weakness conceding points and is certainly not as unbreakable as it was in may deemed as

deisedude

culbaire wrote: »

Spell it out!! Incidentally you conveniently OMITTED a large part of the post which indicated the type of hurling to ACCOMPANY the structure. Judging by the flippancy of your remarks that is hardly surprising. Lets here your approach in DETAIL. One thing is certain Waterford will not win an ALL Ireland with the current approach. Incidentally I did not indicate IN DETAIL how I would utilize the players in the full forward line. Neither did I indicate FULLY how I would use the two centre field players. I gave a broad outline of the structure. Incidentally you introduced the "10 yards". I DID NOT.
For your information a former Cork coach reckons as well that the structure I outlined is far superior to the current structure. Spell out in detail how you would break it down. Lets hear your plan. Also outline the hurling style you would use to accompany your structure. You are obviously a brilliant Junior B manager as indicated by the massive detail in your post. You post is typical of the "circle the wagons brigade". You just dont want to hear alternative points of view.

I apologise for offending you. My remark was indeed flippant and borne more out of frustration that people are calling for us to completely overhaul something that for the most part works, i agree it needs tweaking (another body in the full forward line for a start) but abandonment of it altogether would be foolhardy. When we went man to man in defence in the last few years we shipped huge scores. You only need to look at Limericks defence against Tipp a few weeks back to see what could have happened if we hadn't played a sweeper. Our main problem yesterday was with personnel rather than a system. Tipps forwards were that bit more composed and that partly comes with experience. We had plenty of chances for points and didn't take them but we have a lot of young forwards and it was a big step up but they will learn from it.

Honestly i think we are a bit off Tipp and Kilkenny this year no matter what tactics we use but I think McGrath's system will get us in with a shout and on our day we might just pull off a shock

skaface

We have to beat Dublin first before we start talking about Kilkenny..
While I think we will have too much hurling for Dublin, if we don't treat them with the upmost respect we could be in for a serious battle if
we become complacent..
Hopefully we will get as much support in two
weeks time as we had yesterday, now is the
time to get behind this young team..
Up the Deise ;-))

thinkstoomuch1

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/both-tipperary-and-waterford-have-plenty-of-room-for-improvement-1.2282579

English be fair since day one has always supported waterford in he's articles so people shouldn't think hes having a go here but he's making the point a few of us are making

He's right the system must adapt

culbaire

deisedude wrote: »

I apologise for offending you. My remark was indeed flippant and borne more out of frustration that people are calling for us to completely overhaul something that for the most part works, i agree it needs tweaking (another body in the full forward line for a start) but abandonment of it altogether would be foolhardy. When we went man to man in defence in the last few years we shipped huge scores. You only need to look at Limericks defence against Tipp a few weeks back to see what could have happened if we hadn't played a sweeper. Our main problem yesterday was with personnel rather than a system. Tipps forwards were that bit more composed and that partly comes with experience. We had plenty of chances for points and didn't take them but we have a lot of young forwards and it was a big step up but they will learn from it.

Honestly i think we are a bit off Tipp and Kilkenny this year no matter what tactics we use but I think McGrath's system will get us in with a shout and on our day we might just pull off a shock

No offence taken at all. I take the points you made. I know we are all a bit down at been beaten by Tipperary. As you know it can be a bit hard to listen to some of the Tipperary supporters in the border areas. But that's GAA rivalry. Hopefully we can take Dublin. Then who knows what will happen.

taytobreath

http://www.gaa.ie/tickets-and-merchandise/tickets/

what are people getting when they click this link, tickets i think are available for the match on the 26th

Im getting some sort of security error

Ropaire

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/both-tipperary-and-waterford-have-plenty-of-room-for-improvement-1.2282579

English be fair since day one has always supported waterford in he's articles so people shouldn't think hes having a go here but he's making the point a few of us are making

He's right the system must adapt

Haha, you're a gas man. I read that article earlier today, its the one where he praises Cork at the end isn't it. Was that the part you were hoping would be read?

thinkstoomuch1

Ropaire wrote: »

Haha, you're a gas man. I read that article earlier today, its the one where he praises Cork at the end isn't it. Was that the part you were hoping would be read?

No its nothing to do with it

I posted it as he called for a change of system and he won all ireland eighteen games unbeatenand just to show not everyone buys this system is the finished article


You must remember after the league final and ist game many felt waterford were all ireland contenders and the system was fine and unbeatable
It was never truth be told
For its worth I don't believe cork will win the all ireland as much as it pains me to say it
But you must have realism

Alf Tupper

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

No its nothing to do with it

I posted it as he called for a change of system and he won all ireland eighteen games unbeatenand just to show not everyone buys this system is the finished article


You must remember after the league final and ist game many felt waterford were all ireland contenders and the system was fine and unbeatable
It was never truth be told
For its worth I don't believe cork will win the all ireland as much as it pains me to say it
But you must have realism

Oh the all knowing, all seeing Messiah has returned from a sabbatical just because Waterford suffered a defeat.

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/07/13/waterford-confirm-they-didnt-want-to-win-munster-title-anyway/


Have a read of the above link and replace the words "Waterford" for "Cork" and "Tipperary" for Waterford and "National League" for "Munster Title" and you might realise the line of bull**** that you were pedalling on here back in May before you disappeared.

In case you don't know, the above site is well know for it comedic value. Give them a shout and you might get a job with them as a clown, albeit a bitter one!

thinkstoomuch1

Alf Tupper wrote: »

Oh the all knowing, all seeing Messiah has returned from a sabbatical just because Waterford suffered a defeat.

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2015/07/13/waterford-confirm-they-didnt-want-to-win-munster-title-anyway/


Have a read of the link above and replace the words "Waterford" for "Cork" and "Tipperary" for Waterford and "National League" for "Munster Title" and you might realise the line of bull**** that you were on here pedalling back in May before you disappeared.

In case you don't know, the above site is well know for it comedic value. Give them a shout and you might get a job with them as a clown, albeit a bitter one!

I'm giving an opinion about the match nothing more nothing less
I simply didn't post after the cork match as we had reached cross roads where views were different

We have moved on from the cork game and Cork have thankfully as the last two games showed and were now a fully fit squad for the ist time all year

The game we're taking about is yesterday game and all I'm doing is giving an opinion
That's the only game I'm here to debate and waterford future games
I respect your right to one please respect mine

Back to the topic on hand waterford will be huge favourite and justified so should beat Dublin

Would you change anything for the Dublin game

I would put Glasson up at half forward the next day and see how it works

Deise189

I think one player who rarely gets a mention but deserves it is Shane Fives. He was absolutely incredible yesterday and took his scores superbly! One of the most underrated players in the country and undoubtedly one of the best corner backs in the country at the minute. Delighted to see him playing so well this year after being used as a scapegoat at times last year when our defence was being scrutinised.

Alf Tupper

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

I'm giving an opinion about the match nothing more nothing less
I simply didn't post after the cork match as we had reached cross roads where views were different

We have moved on from the cork game and Cork have thankfully as the last two games showed and were now a fully fit squad for the ist time all year

The game we're taking about is yesterday game and all I'm doing is giving an opinion
That's the only game I'm here to debate and waterford future games
I respect your right to one please respect mine

Back to the topic on hand waterford will be huge favourite and justified so should beat Dublin

Would you change anything for the Dublin game

I would put Glasson up at half forward the next day and see how it works

Cut the bulls**t, you're only on here to release your vitriol at Waterford beating ye twice and bask in some schadenfreude.

If ye were beaten on Saturday night you would still be awol.

Do everyone a favour, get rid of that bitterness that is eating you and get a life outside this site

thinkstoomuch1

Deise189 wrote: »

I think one player who rarely gets a mention but deserves it is Shane Fives. He was absolutely incredible yesterday and took his scores superbly! One of the most underrated players in the country and undoubtedly one of the best corner backs in the country at the minute. Delighted to see him playing so well this year after being used as a scapegoat at times last year when our defence was being scrutinised.

I'd agree in line for an all star as himself and Barrett are in pole position for corner back awards

Murphy cork is good in he's three games considering he's no league behind him

thinkstoomuch1

This game with Dublin is a tough one for ger Cunningham in he's lot affection for waterford hurling from Ballygunner

I know himself and Paul flynn got on very well
Also humphrey Kellher the ex Dublin manager from waterford so there's connection on boat sides

It should be a great day in thurles with four counties there and the minor game is on at twelve also that day

DeiseDawg

Tickets for quarter finals now available online

skaface

Deise189 wrote: »

I think one player who rarely gets a mention but deserves it is Shane Fives. He was absolutely incredible yesterday and took his scores superbly! One of the most underrated players in the country and undoubtedly one of the best corner backs in the country at the minute. Delighted to see him playing so well this year after being used as a scapegoat at times last year when our defence was being scrutinised.

I'd love to see him in midfield the next day, some man to grab a ball out of the sky,
and well able to run past a tackle and take a score.. Well worth a go there

Gavlor

DeiseDawg wrote: »

Tickets for quarter finals now available online

It'll be funny to see the empty seats on the 26th as the bandwagon hits a speed bump!

I've never seen/heard so many clueless "supporters" at a game as I did yesterday. As somebody else said, they obviously hadn't seen this team play before.