If Greece can do it, Ireland certainly can..

The Corinthian

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The pointless refusal to extend the programme has exacerbated this crisis. It was infuriatingly unnecessary, and it benefits nobody.

Yes, because another X months of Greece wasting everyone's time and then unilaterally calling for a referendum that they will now campaign to see defeated and thus maintain the stalemate would really help.

Maybe Germany should call for a referendum and ask the German people should they give more money to Greece? Ireland too could do that. Would that be good democracy or bad democracy according to you?

loyatemu

the bailout ending tomorrow was hardly news. Tsipras could've set an earlier deadline for negotiations and held the referendum ahead of the deadline. Walking out of negotiations and thumbing your nose at your creditors is not a great way to get them to lend you more money.

NIMAN

Wonder did the Greeks never hear of the phrase 'beggars can't be chosers'.

Wanderer78

Godge wrote: »

Yes, Ireland is the fastest growing economy in the EU, Greece is a basket case therefore we played the game very badly.

I am a bit confused by your logic, explain it again please how Greece are doing so well with banks unable to open for a week?

Certainly, you don't appear to know. If Greece leaves the Euro, there will be a lost decade for them.

since you believe all the propaganda about irelands economy theres no point in me continuing with this debate. dont believe all what our governments are saying and all whats printed in our media. the economic crisis has shown me that our financial and economic polices have systemically failed and it looks like most have not realized this, and worryingly this includes most if not all of our politicians.

its obvious that Greece is in a serious situation. i think no matter what choice(s) they make , theyre gonna be screwed.

i suspect if Greece even goes with a bailout there will be a lost decade anyway due to austerity measures. its very worrying that a large amount of people seem to think austerity is working in ireland. i would suggest you speak to some people working in the public health services and more important those that work in the mental health services, to find out whats happening due to austerity. austerity measures are actually inducing mental health problems within our society. this is like opening pandoras box. the amount of problems this creates is incredible and complicated. the vulnerable of our society have become dangerously exposed to these measures.

we need to create a whole new model of world economic polices as a matter of urgency or we will end up in serious trouble further down the road, as i have said earlier, our current model(s) have failed.

im very busy at the moment so probably wont be able to reply for some time

frankbrett

Wanderer78 wrote: »

since you believe all the propaganda about irelands economy theres no point in me continuing with this debate. dont believe all what our governments are saying and all whats printed in our media. the economic crisis has shown me that our financial and economic polices have systemically failed and it looks like most have not realized this, and worryingly this includes most if not all of our politicians.

its obvious that Greece is in a serious situation. i think no matter what choice(s) they make , theyre gonna be screwed.

i suspect if Greece even goes with a bailout there will be a lost decade anyway due to austerity measures. its very worrying that a large amount of people seem to think austerity is working in ireland. i would suggest you speak to some people working in the public health services and more important those that work in the mental health services, to find out whats happening due to austerity. austerity measures are actually inducing mental health problems within our society. this is like opening pandoras box. the amount of problems this creates is incredible and complicated. the vulnerable of our society have become dangerously exposed to these measures.

we need to create a whole new model of world economic polices as a matter of urgency or we will end up in serious trouble further down the road, as i have said earlier, our current model(s) have failed.

im very busy at the moment so probably wont be able to reply for some time

DON'T: Believe verifiable economic statistics compiled by reputable bodies. This is spin and propaganda.
DO: Listen to 10 hours of podcasts from various random punters because they know the score

Peanut

NIMAN wrote: »

Wonder did the Greeks never hear of the phrase 'beggars can't be chosers'.

Unless you're a beggar with a loaded gun.. then you get to choose all you want

Of the options available to Greece, acceding to the current debt burden without putting up a fight seems like the worst possible outcome.

They know that everyone else knows that the consequences of a Greek exit to the both the Euro and the EU as a whole would be highly unpredictable. There was a hint of this today when Juncker said he felt betrayed by Greece's position.

View

Peanut wrote: »

There was a hint of this today when Juncker said he felt betrayed by Greece's position.

It was fairly clear that he felt he had made major efforts to bridge the gap between the sides and believed they had acted in bad faith. That is not a good position for them for possible future negotiations either pre- or post- a default.

Browney7

Putin and Russia licking their lips at all this. Would be a nice base for them to station a few ships to have a Mediterranean port.

Uncle Sam won't be too impressed at the thought of Greece cozying up to the ruskis so a long way to go in this one yet.

Jim2007

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i would suggest you speak to some people working in the public health services and more important those that work in the mental health services, to find out whats happening due to austerity.

Remind me again when was there a time when budgets were not tight in the healthcare services, where there were no waiting lists etc...

As for austerity Irish style it was a joke! You want to see what real austerity is come visit us in Switzerland, we put the Germans in the half-penny place!

ethical

Politicians need to get in the real world and quickly. Taoiseach Kenny bellowed at the Greeks in the past few days that Ireland did not increase taxes or cut back on spending etc during the past five or six years! Where has Kenny been,did he not sign off on the dreaded USC, property tax,water charges or is he in a privileged position that he does not have to pay any of these austere measures? We should be standing with the Greeks and not licking Angela's arse!

IrishTrajan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

since you believe all the propaganda about irelands economy theres no point in me continuing with this debate. dont believe all what our governments are saying and all whats printed in our media. the economic crisis has shown me that our financial and economic polices have systemically failed and it looks like most have not realized this, and worryingly this includes most if not all of our politicians.

We have been growing strong. Unless you have access to knowledge about our economy stating otherwise? I'm sure the Central Bank would like to hear from you so they could re-evaluate their growth expectations.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its obvious that Greece is in a serious situation. i think no matter what choice(s) they make , theyre gonna be screwed.

It's a question of: do you want to be screwed for 8 years, or do you want to be screwed for 20?

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its very worrying that a large amount of people seem to think austerity is working in ireland. i would suggest you speak to some people working in the public health services and more important those that work in the mental health services, to find out whats happening due to austerity. austerity measures are actually inducing mental health problems within our society. this is like opening pandoras box. the amount of problems this creates is incredible and complicated. the vulnerable of our society have become dangerously exposed to these measures.

Yeah, we're kind of still running a massive deficit. Cuts have to be made somewhere, unless you want taxes going up... I don't know about you, but I sure as hell don't want taxes going up.

Actually, I think that by the end of this year our deficit will be largely manageable so long as we can sustain strong growth (Greece's pull-out could hurt our stock markets, but it could weaken the euro enough for us to increase exports, noi?). We're slated for 3.5% growth, our deficit is set to fall to -3.1% or so.

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we need to create a whole new model of world economic polices as a matter of urgency or we will end up in serious trouble further down the road, as i have said earlier, our current model(s) have failed.

What economic policy would you choose then?

It's easier saying "there's a better way!" than to actually devise a better way. Please avoid Communism/Socialist tendencies if possible.

IrishTrajan

Peanut wrote: »

Unless you're a beggar with a loaded gun.. then you get to choose all you want

Not if everyone else is wearing body armour and have guns themselves.

Greece's pull-out could have drastic consequences for the EU... But the EU will largely come out intact.

Greece is wagering certain suicide against Europe's aversion to pain.

Nody

Browney7 wrote: »

Putin and Russia licking their lips at all this. Would be a nice base for them to station a few ships to have a Mediterranean port.

Uncle Sam won't be too impressed at the thought of Greece cozying up to the ruskis so a long way to go in this one yet.

You mean excluding minor things such as Greece being thrown out from EU and it's exporting markets, removed from Nato and Russia suddenly finding hundreds of billions of foreign currency out of the blue (Russian economy is not exactly doing stellar and they are even cutting military budgets; that's how bloody serious it is and that's before you talk about setting up a new base). Russia is not going to do anything with Greece except some cheap gas for friendship and similar deals because they can't afford it and Greece as a nation will not allow it.

As for the clowns in Greece; they have repeatedly made the same mistake over and over thinking they can bluff EU to give them what they want. They come back and say "We have a new proposal for you to review" yet it's the exact same one that was previously rejected. They announce "We're going to hold a vote and let the people decide" and when EU simply shrugs they turn around and go "But guys come on people could vote to stay in EMU if you give us money, really!". The simple fact is they don't have the experience or plan what to do beyond trying to bluff EU to give them debt relief because they have no back up plan, no economical policy and no clue what to do except trying to keep on bluffing to get their plan A to work. Well sorry Greece but the rest of EU don't care that much about you and your bluff is called. Worth noting a lot of these problems goes back beyond the current government as well in terms of legislation, selling resources etc. to free up money but the current government managed to speed it along nicely (for example the tax intake dropped over 2 billion EUR a month when they came into power as people stopped paying taxes expecting that old loopholes would be restored and could be abused).

IrishTrajan

Jim2007 wrote: »

As for austerity Irish style it was a joke! You want to see what real austerity is come visit us in Switzerland, we put the Germans in the half-penny place!

Well look at what it's divided into. The German part does all the work, the French complain about the Germans and the Italians don't pay their taxes!

kidneyfan

Nody wrote: »

You mean excluding minor things such as Greece being thrown out from EU and it's exporting markets

How?

Nody wrote: »

You mean excluding minor things such as Greece being ... removed from Nato

How?

IrishTrajan

Browney7 wrote: »

Putin and Russia licking their lips at all this. Would be a nice base for them to station a few ships to have a Mediterranean port.

They're licking their lips because they're remembering days gone by when oil was $110bbl.

Browney7 wrote: »

Uncle Sam won't be too impressed at the thought of Greece cozying up to the ruskis so a long way to go in this one yet.

The Greeks joining Russia's bloc would have some obvious geopolitical shifts, but nothing too major. Turkey is still a NATO member and could simply close the Mediterranean from the Black Sea.

That is to say nothing of the fact both Italy and France (who naval base is in the Med) both have aircraft carriers and are quite strong naval powers.


If the Russian's will pay Greece's debts, they're welcome to them.

sarumite

ethical wrote: »

Politicians need to get in the real world and quickly. Taoiseach Kenny bellowed at the Greeks in the past few days that Ireland did not increase taxes or cut back on spending etc during the past five or six years! Where has Kenny been,did he not sign off on the dreaded USC, property tax,water charges or is he in a privileged position that he does not have to pay any of these austere measures? We should be standing with the Greeks and not licking Angela's arse!

He made particular reference to Income tax and VAT. VAT did increase in 2012, but Income tax did not (USC is not considered at tax, although it is income related).

While I stand with Greece and I think we should be doing so, I stand opposed to Tsipras and Syriza. Tsipras made undeliverable promises and rather than put his hand up and acknowledge his failure he is trying to blame everyone else.

tara73

Nody wrote: »

to free up money but the current government managed to speed it along nicely (for example the tax intake dropped over 2 billion EUR a month when they came into power as people stopped paying taxes expecting that old loopholes would be restored and could be abused).

spoke today to a friend who lived in greece and is in contact with greek people and she told me this: the new government actually rehired a lot of the civil cervants who were made redundant in the last years.
There's no word for the stupidity of this 'government'.

BlitzKrieg

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

In case it hasn't been posted yet, the outline of the proposals which the Greek public are being asked to vote on, is here (see pdf attachment)

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-5270_en.htm

looking through this, it starts reasonable, with a lot of focus on tax loopholes for farmers that need to be closed, budget cuts to the military and exceptions withdrawn from private health centres. Some of this is stuff we've been doing for decades...like tv licences, taxing advertisements and taxing big yachts.

I mean some of this I raise an eyebrow as it's stuff that I would have assumed was already present in Greece, how the hell did the government raise money before?

but they'll lose most people in the next chapter when it's titled PENSION REFORM

the title alone will get a no from pretty much everyone.



edit: I just looked up the history of tv licence in greece...wtf?

The licence fee in Greece is indirect but obligatory and paid through electricity bills. The amount to be paid is €51.60 (2013) for every separate account of the electrical company (including residence, offices, shops and other places provided with electricity). Its beneficiary is the state broadcaster Ellinikí Radiofonía Tileórasi (ERT). Predicted 2006 annual revenue of ERT from the licence fee (officially called "retributive" fee) is €262.6M (from €214.3M in 2005).[31]

There has been some discussion about imposing a direct licence fee after complaints from people who do not own a television set and yet are still forced to fund ERT. An often quoted joke is that even the dead pay the licence fee (since graveyards pay electricity bills).[32]

In June 2013, ERT was closed down to save money for the Greek government. In the government decree, it was announced during that time, licence fees are to be temporary suspended.[33]

View

View wrote: »

It was the Greeks who walked away from the negotiations, not the rest of the Eurozone.

Which has precisely nothing to do with the point I made. The nature of the end of the talks has precisely nothing to do with what the Eurogroup ought to have done, tactically, to secure a Yes vote. Greeks are being asked to vote Yes to something the Eurogroup is not even endorsing. That is idiocy. Pointless idiocy. It achieves nothing for the Eurogroup, and played right into the hands of Syriza, who can reasonably suggest that "if you vote Yes, you'll give a carte blanche to the Eurogroup for deeper cuts"

Anyway, the FT have got their hands on what is purported to be a letter from Tspiras, dated yesterday to the Commission, the ECB and the IMF indicating some concessions and new proposals

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e82e0256-1fcb-11e5-ab0f-6bb9974f25d0.html#axzz3edMYe93P

The two-page letter to the heads of the European Commission, International Monetary Fund and European Central Bank and obtained by the Financial Times, elaborates on Tuesday’s surprise request for an extension of Greece’s now-expired bailout and for a new, third rescue rescue worth €29.1bn.

Senior eurozone officials involved in the talks cautioned Mr Tsipras’s remaining demands in the letter werre “not a handful of minor changes” and would have “significant fiscal impact” and may not be acceptable to creditors.

Wolfgang Schäuble, Germany’s hardline finance minister, gave the latest Greek initiative short shrift, saying it was “no basis” for serious talks.

Carlos Orange

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Turkey is still a NATO member and could simply close the Mediterranean from the Black Sea.

Turkey couldn't do that without creating an massive international indecent. It has long standing treaty obligations that pre-date NATO.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Schauble would not be Greece's biggest fan I take it.

take everything

take everything wrote: »

I can't see the EU letting them go.
I think people might have underestimated Tsipras and co.

I actually take this back.
Their actions have been bizarre over the last few days.
And because of this lack of leadership I can't see the Greece people voting no now which is a pity. I'd have loved to see the Greece people call the EU's bluff.
Capital controls and what seems to be seriously poor leadership will ensure otherwise.

Dohnjoe

Varoufakis says the banks will have cash next week, other sources saying the banks are almost dry (due to run out on Monday apparently)

Perhaps he's been tasked to tell porky pies to keep public confidence high as economy is grinding to a halt who knows

The Corinthian

take everything wrote: »

I actually take this back.
Their actions have been bizarre over the last few days.
And because of this lack of leadership I can't see the Greece people voting no now which is a pity. I'd have loved to see the Greece people call the EU's bluff.
Capital controls and what seems to be seriously poor leadership will ensure otherwise.

While I would disagree with your overall position, I would tend to agree with your analysis on Tsipras' role and roll pack on previous suspicions I may have exposed that this was a planned failure.

Whole thing increasingly looks like a clear cut case of Hanlon's razor.

BlitzKrieg

question

I've seen a lot of talk that Greece has a ridiculously outdated tax system and some insane tax exemptions and loopholes.

has anyone looked to see what state Greece would be in if it used the tax system and/or tax rates of other EU countries? Like for example Ireland or the UK?

Or is that a simply impossible hypothetical?

catbear

A colleague in switzerland has told me there's a whole warehouse of fresh drachma's sitting in a warehouse waiting for shipment. He thinks the IMF ordered it as the greeks don't seem to have their **** together enough to avoid a total cash freeze.

BlitzKrieg

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

question

I've seen a lot of talk that Greece has a ridiculously outdated tax system and some insane tax exemptions and loopholes.

has anyone looked to see what state Greece would be in if it used the tax system and/or tax rates of other EU countries? Like for example Ireland or the UK?

Or is that a simply impossible hypothetical?

You can do analysis, but the compliance rates aren't fixed. You could only offer inferences but nothing solid.

Here's a good article about the tax issues. Written 5 years ago, and on the message that it's not over-spending that's hurting Greece, it's under-earning.

Then, 5 years on, we're at this point. Almost no progress whatsoever.

Greece's issues with raising taxes lie mostly with the complexity of the system, the compliance rates being low and the cultural denigration of payers. It's an extremely politically unpalatable situation. Nobody votes for more taxes!

The Corinthian

catbear wrote: »

A colleague in switzerland has told me there's a whole warehouse of fresh drachma's sitting in a warehouse waiting for shipment. He thinks the IMF ordered it as the greeks don't seem to have their **** together enough to avoid a total cash freeze.

Do you have an address..?