National Hunt 14/15 thread

jimjamcos

skippymac6 wrote: »

Ah yeah sorry forgot about Sanctuaire. I didnt forget a few I literally rattled off the main ones in my head! Some array of talent :eek:

Union Dues died too didn't he?

kfallon

jimjamcos wrote: »

Union Dues died too didn't he?

Ah Jaysus....really? Was wondering where he was!

Don't forget Don Poli too, will surely be sent novice chasing this season, looks a real good staying prospect!

Andalucia

when you look at the Mullins stable, it's quite embarrassing the talent he has at his disposal, never mind what treasures will be unlocked in the summers recruits

great to see that the Tullow Tank has gone to a proper chasing trainer, will give him some chance to deliver on his potential, now if only he had a jockey to match the trainer

hate to say it, but we need this indian summer to end before we will get to enjoy any of these - few weeks away yet I suppose

blackbelt1

World Hurdle winner More of that is the most exciting prospect all season the horse is a true champion only an act of god will get him beaten superb engine and attitude.

cack_handed

Andalucia wrote: »

great to see that the Tullow Tank has gone to a proper chasing trainer, will give him some chance to deliver on his potential, now if only he had a jockey to match the trainer

Do you mean the tank is gone to Mullins now? I must have missed that announcement..

Take your point the delivering on potential angle, but not good for the game in general imo. We're all excited now, but how long before the "mullins dominance is killing jump racing" threads begin in earnest?

blackbelt1

cack_handed wrote: »

Do you mean the tank is gone to Mullins now? I must have missed that announcement..

Take your point the delivering on potential angle, but not good for the game in general imo. We're all excited now, but how long before the "mullins dominance is killing jump racing" threads begin in earnest?

Willie Mullins is far from a great trainer of chasers,hes gone to dessie hughe's yard I believe,the horse will never reach potential as he'd handicapped by ratained rider Danny Mullins who is pathetic.

unitedrover

cack_handed wrote: »

Do you mean the tank is gone to Mullins now? I must have missed that announcement..

Take your point the delivering on potential angle, but not good for the game in general imo. We're all excited now, but how long before the "mullins dominance is killing jump racing" threads begin in earnest?

The amount of talent he has for the season is scary. The sad thing is some of his horses, who would be stars in another stable, may never achieve their potential simply due to Mullins trouble in keeping horses apart and are probably destined for looking at the behinds of more talented stablemates all season.

cashcarson

Gone very much the way of the flat mullins is every bit as dominant as ballydoyle but it was good to see Meade make a little bit of a better impression last season after a woeful few years hopefully he kicks on again always came across as one of the nice guys. Gordon Elliott will no doubt have a few nice young horses and a couple of nicely placed handicappers cant wait for it to start. expect a big season from davy Russell plus I think carlingford lough and morning assembly will be able to mix it with anything mullins has over a stiff 3 miles.

Backstreet Moyes

Mullins is a fantastic trainer but if i had a decent horse i would give him elsewhere. He is going to be trying to keep horses away from each other. Look at Un De Sceaux last year what a waste of a season he never got a chance to show how good he is.

blackbelt1

Nuts102 wrote: »

Mullins is a fantastic trainer but if i had a decent horse i would give him elsewhere. He is going to be trying to keep horses away from each other. Look at Un De Sceaux last year what a waste of a season he never got a chance to show how good he is.

The owners dont deserve any luck with UDS after what they let go on last season willie pulled the wool over their eyes it should have been hauled out of his yard and sent to the champion hurdle,running in egg and spoon races under the guise of ''he lacks experience for cheltenham'',the wins in france against the likes of gemix are like winning sellers compared .to Aintree,cheltenham leopardstown or punchestown festival wins


The whole last year will have been a waste if he goes chasing this year instead of the champion hurdle.

unitedrover

blackbelt1 wrote: »

The owners dont deserve any luck with UDS after what they let go on last season willie pulled the wool over their eyes it should have been hauled out of his yard and sent to the champion hurdle,running in egg and spoon races under the guise of ''he lacks experience for cheltenham'',the wins in france against the likes of gemix are like winning sellers compared .to Aintree,cheltenham leopardstown or punchestown festival wins


The whole last year will have been a waste if he goes chasing this year instead of the champion hurdle.

Now that you've said it (and judging by his odds), I actually think he could go for the Arkle ( 5/1). The hurdles in France are halfway between our hurdles and fences so obviously a chasing career was at the back of Willie's mind.

blackbelt1

unitedrover wrote: »

Now that you've said it (and judging by his odds), I actually think he could go for the Arkle ( 5/1). The hurdles in France are halfway between our hurdles and fences so obviously a chasing career was at the back of Willie's mind.

He could have went the arkle last year though waste of a season,willie will place horses to suit rich ricci first so vautour or faugheen could be arkle bound or even annie power shes built for it,UDS could go JLT or vice versa Faugheen or vautour should they go chasing.

Its a pure guessing game wouldnt have a bet on any of them ante-post unless I was willies mother and even at that I wouldnt be confident of them showing up.

jimjamcos

The Irish NH season SHOULD be exciting given the talent but it won't be due to Mullins dominance and conservatism unfortunately.

Hurdles:

2m: Faugheen will be left with only Jezki as a threat with Annie Power aimed at Micky Mouse Mare races.

2.4/3m: Briar Hill/Diakali/Article Fire/HF if returning will be kept apart

Fences:

Novice 2m: Vautour/UDS/Abbyssial will be kept apart.

Novice 2.4/3m: Rathvinden/Clondaw Court/Pont Alexandre/Don Poli/Un Atout the same.

Ditto the older Richi - CF, Ballycasey, Djackadam - and Wylie chasers - FY, BB & OHO.

Mullins will have to bite the bullet at home or start targeting England properly.

NaiveMelodies

Lads, if Un De Sceaux had a chance in the Champion, he would have run.

Anyone who thinks otherwise simply does not understand the importance of a Festival winner to every single National Hunt Trainer under the sun.

He picked up a cosy 150k last season and remains unbeaten.
I have yet to decide if it is the owners or trainers fault for this shocking effort.

Backstreet Moyes

only1stevo wrote: »

Lads, if Un De Sceaux had a chance in the Champion, he would have run.

Anyone who thinks otherwise simply does not understand the importance of a Festival winner to every single National Hunt Trainer under the sun.

He picked up a cosy 150k last season and remains unbeaten.
I have yet to decide if it is the owners or trainers fault for this shocking effort.

I think it's fairly obvious his running style would have not suited Hurricane Fly.

I don't know exactly how he managed to keep the owners happen all season. Nobody actually knows how good he is.

cack_handed

Nuts102 wrote: »

I think it's fairly obvious his running style would have not suited Hurricane Fly.

I don't know exactly how he managed to keep the owners happen all season. Nobody actually knows how good he is.

Dont know how he does it either. Remember Rich Ricci doing an interview this time last year, basically saying Annie Power would be champion bound, then before cheltenham it was all, whatever Willie wants to do. I get the impression Ruby would be a very strong influence as regards owners...very persuasive partnership i'd imagine

jimjamcos

only1stevo wrote: »

Lads, if Un De Sceaux had a chance in the Champion, he would have run.

Anyone who thinks otherwise simply does not understand the importance of a Festival winner to every single National Hunt Trainer under the sun.

He picked up a cosy 150k last season and remains unbeaten.
I have yet to decide if it is the owners or trainers fault for this shocking effort.

Thats bull. No point going over it again but if you honestly believe that his form didn't merit at least a run in it, you've got it very very wrong. As for him still being unbeaten, he's not a stallion prospect ffs. This is NH!!

Backstreet Moyes

Wonder what the betting would be if UDS and Jezki went up against each other.

NaiveMelodies

jimjamcos wrote: »

Thats bull. No point going over it again but if you honestly believe that his form didn't merit at least a run in it, you've got it very very wrong. As for him still being unbeaten, he's not a stallion prospect ffs. This is NH!!

No. Willie has got it very very wrong, according to you!

What form exactly suggested he would have been competitive in the Champion Hurdle?

jimjamcos

only1stevo wrote: »

No. Willie has got it very very wrong, according to you!

What form exactly suggested he would have been competitive in the Champion Hurdle?

Lots of it. It's very easy to use the 'Willie's never wrong' excuse given his strikerate but that's just fanboy stuff. Horse's potential was not adequately explored over hurdles, that is a fact, regardless of what he does over fences.

Backstreet Moyes

only1stevo wrote: »

No. Willie has got it very very wrong, according to you!

What form exactly suggested he would have been competitive in the Champion Hurdle?

If you owned Un De Sceaux would you be happy with how he was campaigned last season.

blackbelt1

only1stevo wrote: »

Lads, if Un De Sceaux had a chance in the Champion, he would have run.

Anyone who thinks otherwise simply does not understand the importance of a Festival winner to every single National Hunt Trainer under the sun.

He picked up a cosy 150k last season and remains unbeaten.
I have yet to decide if it is the owners or trainers fault for this shocking effort.

A chance are you for real? they wouldnt run him because the darling hurricane fly was going for a 3rd and ruby wouldnt allow someone else ride a horse against HF that had a good chance,do you even watch horse racing?


If you think he had no chance i will have a bet with you when/if UDS meets anything that ran in last years CH he will go out in front and wont be for catching over 2m.

ste2010

The fact gemix caught him over 2 in and half in auteil is the first red flag that he would not be good enough to win a champion on a course like chelt. I could see him blitzing 2m in Kempton and ascot

blackbelt1

ste2010 wrote: »

The fact gemix caught him over 2 in and half in auteil is the first red flag that he would not be good enough to win a champion on a course like chelt. I could see him blitzing 2m in Kempton and ascot

Stop the race at 2m and he wins half the track you just answered solved your own point there,2m4 form in france compared to champion hurdle prospects means absolutely nothing he needs to run over 2m in grade 1s and see if hes good enough,if not then go chasing simple.

NaiveMelodies

blackbelt1 wrote: »

A chance are you for real? they wouldnt run him because the darling hurricane fly was going for a 3rd and ruby wouldnt allow someone else ride a horse against HF that had a good chance,do you even watch horse racing?


If you think he had no chance i will have a bet with you when/if UDS meets anything that ran in last years CH he will go out in front and wont be for catching over 2m.

That first paragraph is just nonsense. I'm not sure I can spend time responding to that as I'd be worried your next response might be twice as childish.

The 2nd paragraph is something I look forward to, if it happens.
I would love if UDS was good enough to mix it with the fairly strong 2m hurdle division this season- because there's nothing better than following a division that has serious strength in depth over the course of a season.

The horse was visually very impressive last season and is clearly a good horse, but I prefer to look at the form and see what exactly a horse has beaten before making a judgement- if someone can provide me with some actual form that would suggest he would have been involved in the finish in last seasons CH, I'd be more than willing to review my opinion.
Have any horse of note come out of any of his races last season?

Mullins has got many things wrong and I'd agree that he has made poor decisions in placing horses in the past. I'm not a fanboy and I'm not sure how phrases like that can help the discussion. However, I am of the firm belief that Mullins would have run UDS in the Champion Hurdle if he truly believed that the horse could mix it with that field. I think it's bizarre to suggest otherwise.
It could be a fair comment to say he might underrate the horse and that he could be wrong in that belief, but live Cheltenham chances are not passed on because a stable companion is going for a milestone.

NaiveMelodies

Nuts102 wrote: »

Wonder what the betting would be if UDS and Jezki went up against each other.

UDS is best priced 14s, Jezki best priced 13/2 for the CH 2015.

Interested to see what you think of the above?

As a matter of interest, would people be jumping on board that price about UDS (say it was NRNB)?

Edit: Only fair that I should give my opinion. I don't think 14s is a very attractive price at all.

blackbelt1

only1stevo wrote: »

That first paragraph is just nonsense. I'm not sure I can spend time responding to that as I'd be worried your next response might be twice as childish.

The 2nd paragraph is something I look forward to, if it happens.
I would love if UDS was good enough to mix it with the fairly strong 2m hurdle division this season- because there's nothing better than following a division that has serious strength in depth over the course of a season.

The horse was visually very impressive last season and is clearly a good horse, but I prefer to look at the form and see what exactly a horse has beaten before making a judgement- if someone can provide me with some actual form that would suggest he would have been involved in the finish in last seasons CH, I'd be more than willing to review my opinion.
Have any horse of note come out of any of his races last season?

Mullins has got many things wrong and I'd agree that he has made poor decisions in placing horses in the past. I'm not a fanboy and I'm not sure how phrases like that can help the discussion. However, I am of the firm belief that Mullins would have run UDS in the Champion Hurdle if he truly believed that the horse could mix it with that field. I think it's bizarre to suggest otherwise.
It could be a fair comment to say he might underrate the horse and that he could be wrong in that belief, but live Cheltenham chances are not passed on because a stable companion is going for a milestone.

Im not going to waste my time trying to educate you sorry but can you explain to me how UDS could produce decent form while hes sitting in his box when the grade ones are running? they used the inexperienced card to pull the wool over the owners eyes while HF was having a good crack at winning a 3rd,Maybe hes not good enough to win a ch but its hard trying to prove you're good enough when your in a horse box or getting sent out to france to win micky mouse races over different trips


I would back UDS to beat jezki every day of the week over 2m any track too so if you'd like a bet when they meet I will be track side and will be delighted to take your money.

jimjamcos

only1stevo wrote: »

That first paragraph is just nonsense. I'm not sure I can spend time responding to that as I'd be worried your next response might be twice as childish.

The 2nd paragraph is something I look forward to, if it happens.
I would love if UDS was good enough to mix it with the fairly strong 2m hurdle division this season- because there's nothing better than following a division that has serious strength in depth over the course of a season.

The horse was visually very impressive last season and is clearly a good horse, but I prefer to look at the form and see what exactly a horse has beaten before making a judgement- if someone can provide me with some actual form that would suggest he would have been involved in the finish in last seasons CH, I'd be more than willing to review my opinion.
Have any horse of note come out of any of his races last season?

Mullins has got many things wrong and I'd agree that he has made poor decisions in placing horses in the past. I'm not a fanboy and I'm not sure how phrases like that can help the discussion. However, I am of the firm belief that Mullins would have run UDS in the Champion Hurdle if he truly believed that the horse could mix it with that field. I think it's bizarre to suggest otherwise.
It could be a fair comment to say he might underrate the horse and that he could be wrong in that belief, but live Cheltenham chances are not passed on because a stable companion is going for a milestone.

You are correct, the horse should be judged on what he's beaten. He wasn't given that chance, although he did beat an average horse in Midnight Game much more convincingly than Hurricane Fly did in the Morgiana. As for Gemix, he's a top class stayer on his own ground, as seen when he hammered a top horse in Solwhit few years back, people are reading to much into his run in England last season when he never went a yard. Ruby was more than bullish about UDS pre festival and was adamant he was a major threat if turning up.

As for those saying Willie knows best, horse was inexperienced etc, you only have to look at More of That, how he was campaigned positively by O'Neill and the end result to show that protecting NH horses is fallacy.

klairondavis

I'm not sure they are comparable. More Of That always looked a fairly straightforward horse. Un De Sceaux is a complete tearaway.

NaiveMelodies

jimjamcos wrote: »

You are correct, the horse should be judged on what he's beaten. He wasn't given that chance, although he did beat an average horse in Midnight Game much more convincingly than Hurricane Fly did in the Morgiana. As for Gemix, he's a top class stayer on his own ground, as seen when he hammered a top horse in Solwhit few years back, people are reading to much into his run in England last season when he never went a yard. Ruby was more than bullish about UDS pre festival and was adamant he was a major threat if turning up.

As for those saying Willie knows best, horse was inexperienced etc, you only have to look at More of That, how he was campaigned positively by O'Neill and the end result to show that protecting NH horses is fallacy.

I would have preferred to see more of him too, who wouldn't have?
Gemix is clearly a nice horse and probably should have won that day, and I know a line should be put through his Cheltenham effort. If we're looking at that form(2m4f in mud) it would also suggest there isn't much between UDS and Thousand Stars.

It is interesting that Ruby was very bullish on him and hopefully we'll find out this season if that confidence is backed up.

Willie knows best.. because he is one of the best? Knows the horse better than anyone I've spoken too on the matter.
Appreciate we all have opinions but to say there's hijinks going on by the yard towards UDSs owners(@blackbelt) is laughable.

More of That- class horse, very well campaigned. Same with Holywell over the past few seasons. Top marks for Jonjo there.


Anyway the UDS question is an interesting one that will be answered this season.