Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Zubeneschamali

Neyite wrote: »

We have known about unmarked graves in these homes for decades

Locals in Tuam and also in Castlepollard, I think, believed the graves were of "little angels", children who died unbaptised by accident, and would therefore not be buried in consecrated ground. The Tuam case shows (whatever remains are or aren't in the tank) that lots of older children's bodies, and perhaps their mother bodies too, were disposed of irregularly.

Cabaal

Spring Onion wrote: »

You never answered my question #1220

He's been banned for a week so he wont be now,

SpaceTime

I'm just finding it all very depressing.

I'm atheist (always was) and actually defected formally from the Catholic church several years ago.

However, it's just horrible to know that my country allowed this to happen and that a minority of people are actually still trying to minimise and defend it.

I'm impressed with Diarmuid Martin's ability to stand up against this kind of thing in his own organisation though. That's what the Catholic Church needs more of. Hiding these things just does them more and more damage.

I also think we need to not overlook the Bethany home which was protestant and seems to have been run as badly as any of the Catholic ones.

All of these religious orders, organisations and the state had a duty of care to those kids and need to be held to account.

Just saying it was a long time ago isn't good enough and a wishy-washy inquiry isn't going to cut the mustard either.

Enough is enough. No more obstructions by anyone!

Cabaal

Coming up on 21 thousand signatures on the petition

bumper234

Cabaal wrote: »

Coming up on 21 thousand signatures on the petition

I got this reply from Clare Daly

From: Clare Daly
Date:08/06/2014 17:01 (GMT+00:00)
To: Bumper234
Subject: Re: Tuam Babies

Dear Bumper234,

Thanks for getting in touch and raising the horrendous crimes that were carried out in women & children in mother & baby homes & the need to have them thoroughly investigated & to open the records to allow transparency & accountability for what went on, & to give people alive today who have been searching for years, identities & information.


It is a positive that these issues are now firmly in the public domain & that the pressure is on to have them investigated finally. There is no doubt that what went on in these homes was very much an open secret. I am sickened by the hypocrisy of those now standing up and claiming to be horrified. I passed on the report on these homes, which was done by Adoption Rights Now, almost a year ago,to the Department of Children. We had a press conference at the time, and apart from an article in the Irish Times, nobody wanted to know. This report showed the high mortality rates coming from Sean Ross Abbey, Bessborogh & Castlepollard, and unmarked graves with hundreds of bodies. I have raised many times the need to secure records, and very little progress has been made. I believe that the failure to deal with this issue is rooted in the fact that so many of the adoptions were illegal and forced, and that the other children were often left to die and neglected. It is an absolute reflection of how Irish society treated women who were pregnant outside marriage In that sense at least the fact that the Tuam case has focused attention and required action to be taken is a good thing.


I got a chance to raise some points on Thursday in the Dail when a number of TDs submitted the matter for discussion as a Topical Issue. An account of that debate is available on my Facebook page. I will certainly continue to do what I can to keep the pressure on.

All the very best,
Clare Daly

And i have replied

From: Bumper234
Date:09/06/2014 09:13 (GMT+00:00)
To: Clare Daly
Subject: Re: Tuam Babies

Clare.

Many thanks for your reply, A large section of the boards.ie have been discussing these disgraceful revelations and a petion was started by one of the community members. Now with over 20,000 signatures maybe you could bring this to ministers Fitzgerald, Toaiseach Kenny and tanaiste Gilmores attention as they seem to have not seen the emails sent to them.

Link to petition

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

You can also follow the debates on boards.ie here

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057220713/1

And here

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057223144/1

Many regards.

Bumper234

Spring Onion

I am just surprised your real name is Bumper.

robindch

http://www.thejournal.ie/archbishop-diarmuid-martin-investigation-mother-and-baby-homes-1505876-Jun2014/

TheJournal wrote:

THE ARCHBISHOP OF Dublin has called for a “full-bodied investigation” into all mother-and-baby homes in Ireland. It follows controversy surrounding the deaths of almost 800 children at one of these homes in Tuam, Co Galway. Archbishop Diarmuid Martin told RTÉ Radio 1′s This Week programme said that “there’s no point” in investigating solely this incident, as “it probably happened in other mother-and-baby homes around the country”, and called for an investigation that covered all homes in Ireland.

He added that any commission set-up to investigate these homes must have “full judicial powers, or else you’re going to get yourselves tangled in a whole set of issues”. We need to investigate exactly what happened… to try to identify the areas of culture that were there, and to make sure they’re all gone. Concerns expressed over adoptions must be included, he said, as well as reports that vaccinations were trialled on children in some of these homes.

Ian Elliott, a former CEO of the National Board for Safeguarding Children in the Catholic Church in Ireland, was earmarked by Martin as someone suitable to lead such an investigation. Martin also questioned why issues at these homes were not raised by whisteblowers working in these homes, although that church records show that there was some concern over how children were being treated.

“Homes attempted to come into the Dublin diocese, but there was a clear reticence against the practices. Where were the enlightened people?” he asked, “There must have been some people there with the idealism that brought them in [to the profession].”

He also said that he wasn’t sure if the full blame for the issues at these homes could be placed on the Church. “There was collusion between church and State institutions.”

Full judicial powers? Good on you, Diarmuid.

I wish more prominent church supporters would say something similar.

SpaceTime

I agree with her on the hypocrisy of the whole thing too. There are definitely quite a few people feigning horror despite knowing about this for years and doing nothing.

Although, often it does take a kick up the rear end before people actually start to see what's under their own noses.

What concerns me is that a large chunk of the Irish 'establishment' (including many major print media outlets and political figures) didn't pay attention until the international media got hold of it and it started to look embarrassing.

The one Irish media outlet that has been pursuing this for years and years has actually been RTE. They did a whole series of documentaries (including notably the Mary Rafferty ones) and several major Prime Time investigates pieces into these over the years that really shone a light on this and put it into the public domain in a big way.

same ol sh1te

robindch wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/archbishop-diarmuid-martin-investigation-mother-and-baby-homes-1505876-Jun2014/

Full judicial powers? Good on you, Diarmuid.

I wish more prominent church supporters would say something similar.

Because he knows the Government has his back.

SpaceTime

same ol sh1te wrote: »

Because he knows the Government has his back.

I think there's also an element that he knows the people have his back too.

If anyone had stood up to the Church and 'the powers that be' in the past they'd have been pilloried.

The Church also tried to censor and censure various priests even in recent times too! Liberal priests with radical ideas were literally served with written threats for speaking out of line.

In terms of Church and right wing power : take a look at what happened Noel Browne when he tried to introduce the Mother and Child Scheme back in the early 50s!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_and_Child_Scheme

bumper234

Spring Onion wrote: »

I am just surprised your real name is Bumper.

From the Hemel Hempstead Bumpers, Trace my lineage back over 1200 years:D

I remove my real name and add that in.

Cabaal

SpaceTime wrote: »

The one Irish media outlet that has been pursuing this for years and years has actually been RTE. They did a whole series of documentaries (including notably the Mary Rafferty ones) and several major Prime Time investigates pieces into these over the years that really shone a light on this and put it into the public domain in a big way.

I think its a case of yes and they have but no they haven't,

It seems to me that some people in RTE want the issues brought into the public eye but other stuff get things down played when it comes to RTE's News service and their either lack or extremely slow response to reporting stuff

Bannasidhe

SpaceTime wrote: »

I agree with her on the hypocrisy of the whole thing too. There are definitely quite a few people feigning horror despite knowing about this for years and doing nothing.

Although, often it does take a kick up the rear end before people actually start to see what's under their own noses.

What concerns me is that a large chunk of the Irish 'establishment' (including many major print media outlets and political figures) didn't pay attention until the international media got hold of it and it started to look embarrassing.

The one Irish media outlet that has been pursuing this for years and years has actually been RTE. They did a whole series of documentaries (including notably the Mary Rafferty ones) and several major Prime Time investigates pieces into these over the years that really shone a light on this and put it into the public domain in a big way.

Obliq has been doing incredible work on that list of committee members I put up and we have pretty good information on the chair of the committee in 1937 which I am going through today.

I will say this - it might be a coincidence that government is dragging their heels and nowt to do with the fact that the man in question was at one point a FF TD

No, I don't think it's coincidence either.

robindch

Mother and baby inquiry to go beyond Tuam - Flanagan

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/mother-and-baby-inquiry-to-go-beyond-tuam-flanagan-1.1821947

Priest: 'We were fairly sure nuns weren't obeying laws' - The former head of an adoption agency recalls how he would meet the young Irish mothers off the boat.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/priest-we-were-fairly-sure-nuns-werent-obeying-laws-30337360.html

Bannasidhe

bumper234 wrote: »

From the Hemel Hempstead Bumpers, Trace my lineage back over 1200 years:D

I remove my real name and add that in.

Are you one of those Bumpers????

Gosh.

How veh interesting.....

recedite

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

The fact of doctors' opposition to the plan is just a matter of public record. Nothing to do with me at all.

Even today most private GPs are unhappy with the amount they get paid for medical card patients, and some don't accept them as patients at all.
That doesn't alter public policy though, which is to provide basic healthcare to those who can't afford it.

bumper234

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Are you one of those Bumpers????

Gosh.

How veh interesting.....

Yes we are a vewy well wespected family fwom the home counties and are in fact distant welatives of the 3rd earl of wochester and wotherham.

SpaceTime

Cabaal wrote: »

I think its a case of yes and they have but no they haven't,

It seems to me that some people in RTE want the issues brought into the public eye but other stuff get things down played when it comes to RTE's News service and their either lack or extremely slow response to reporting stuff

RTE News are like that with *everything* though.
The extension lead doesn't reach very far beyond the Merrion Road unfortunately.

Obliq

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Obliq has been doing incredible work on that list of committee members I put up and we have pretty good information on the chair of the committee in 1937 which I am going through today.

I will say this - it might be a coincidence that government is dragging their heels and nowt to do with the fact that the man in question was at one point a FF TD

No, I don't think it's coincidence either.

Aw, thanks I get obsessed real easy.....

And no, there's ALL sorts that I'm not spotting much coincidence in, that included. Notably that the HSE (according to the dept of justice report into the Magdelan Laundries http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/2013Magdalen-P%20III%20Chapter%2011%20Health%20(PDF%20-%20439KB).pdf/Files/2013Magdalen-P%20III%20Chapter%2011%20Health%20(PDF%20-%20439KB).pdf) now has ALL the records for the mother and baby homes, including Tuam.

Also, that the Annual Reports of the Department of Local Government and Public Health between 1927 and 1945, Minutes books; Books containing Managers’ Orders; Ledgers and Accounts; and any surviving files relating to Public Health are all still uncatagorised and inaccessible in 5,000 boxes of hardcopy presided over by the Department of Environment, Community and Local Government.

'Bout time they got their finger out then, hey? Funny they were sitting on these records ALL THE BLOODY TIME :mad:

Correction: Most of the above catagories are in hard copy in the Local Authorities (local or operational-level records), and any of the Departmental records were transferred to the newly established Department of Health in 1947.

SpaceTime

Independent Article linked above
Fr Good says he is happy to help any such inquiry, but cautions: "The problem we are facing now is that they are demanding adoption files to be opened. That will blow up marriages of all kinds. There are a lot of Irish men, if they found that their wives had a baby outside marriage, it would be a disaster."

While I can understand what he's saying, I can't really understand how it would "blow up a marriage" either. I would sincerely hope that most Irish men are not that petty.
If it did end the marriage, it clearly wasn't based on much to start with. I mean, OK it means you have a stepchild who is now an adult.

Frankly, I'd be more annoyed that I didn't know about it if I were married to someone all those years. The fact they'd had a child wouldn't bother me in the least. I'd just be a bit upset that I'd never met them or that they felt they needed to keep it all covered up.

I'd hope that Irish men (including old ones) don't have such ridiculous attitudes. Frankly, if someone did walk out on a marriage over that I'd really think that there wasn't much of a marriage to being with at all.

Flippyfloppy

SpaceTime wrote: »

While I can understand what he's saying, I can't really understand how it would "blow up a marriage" either. I would sincerely hope that most Irish men are not that petty.
If it did end the marriage, it clearly wasn't based on much to start with. I mean, OK it means you have a stepchild who is now an adult.

Frankly, I'd be more annoyed that I didn't know about it if I were married to someone all those years. The fact they'd had a child wouldn't bother me in the least. I'd just be a bit upset that I'd never met them or that they felt they needed to keep it all covered up.

I'd hope that Irish men (including old ones) don't have such ridiculous attitudes. Frankly, if someone did walk out on a marriage over that I'd really think that there wasn't much of a marriage to being with at all.

Jeez, that priest is trying to scaremonger if ever there was a case. Clearly living in the dark ages. 'Lets leave sleeping fish lie, we don't want the MEN to be cranky'

SpaceTime

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Jeez, that priest is trying to scaremonger if ever there was a case. Clearly living in the dark ages. 'Lets leave sleeping fish lie, we don't want the MEN to be cranky'

Well, I don't know if he's trying to scaremonger really. It's maybe just that he's literally from another era and another culture in some ways.

Ireland's moved on. I don't think I know anyone who doesn't have one of the old taboo subjects in their family : I mean a huge % of kids are born outside marriage, practically everyone lives with their partner before they're married, loads of people are separated and divorced and I can't think of a anyone who doesn't have at least one gay sister, brother, cousin etc.

I think we're long over that nonsense! At least, I would hope so anyway!

Obliq

SpaceTime wrote: »

While I can understand what he's saying, I can't really understand how it would "blow up a marriage" either. I would sincerely hope that most Irish men are not that petty.
If it did end the marriage, it clearly wasn't based on much to start with. I mean, OK it means you have a stepchild who is now an adult.

Frankly, I'd be more annoyed that I didn't know about it if I were married to someone all those years. The fact they'd had a child wouldn't bother me in the least. I'd just be a bit upset that I'd never met them or that they felt they needed to keep it all covered up.

I'd hope that Irish men (including old ones) don't have such ridiculous attitudes. Frankly, if someone did walk out on a marriage over that I'd really think that there wasn't much of a marriage to being with at all.

It's the purest form of control. Try and change things and your name will be blackened.

The sad, simple truth is that this is true. There are mothers alive today who would give ANYTHING for their histories not to come out publicly. The same fear of the shame is still with us because these women have secrets to keep, and I can't blame them. If you've kept such a secret for 20/30/40/50 years, it only becomes more important, not less, to make sure it doesn't come out.

SpaceTime

Obliq wrote: »

It's the purest form of control. Try and change things and your name will be blackened.

The sad, simple truth is that this is true. There are mothers alive today who would give ANYTHING for their histories not to come out publicly. The same fear of the shame is still with us because these women have secrets to keep, and I can't blame them. If you've kept such a secret for 20/30/40/50 years, it only becomes more important, not less, to make sure it doesn't come out.

Yeah, it's the old 'coming out' story though.

If you're 'in the closet' you're always going to have something to hide and something to fear and you can be blackmailed. It doesn't matter what the topic is! Same psychology applies.

The taboo's broken publicly quite a long time ago now and I think you are getting a lot more people coming forward and saying what happened. It's a drip, drip that builds to a steady flow then suddenly it's just no longer a huge deal and everyone's wondering why it ever was a big deal to begin with.

Obliq

SpaceTime wrote: »

I think we're long over that nonsense! At least, I would hope so anyway!

It would be nice to think so, but I fear it's aspirational at best. A good friend of mine (in her mid 50's) only found out last September that she had a brother when he realised (after 25 years of secret contact with their mother) that she was NEVER going to tell her family. He finally contacted his sisters himself. It genuinly nearly killed her with the shame she felt, but it has all worked out in the end and she pulled through, thankfully. Never underestimate the power of shame

SpaceTime

Obliq wrote: »

It would be nice to think so, but I fear it's aspirational at best. A good friend of mine (in her mid 50's) only found out last September that she had a brother when he realised (after 25 years of secret contact with their mother) that she was NEVER going to tell her family. He finally contacted his sisters himself. It genuinly nearly killed her with the shame she felt, but it has all worked out in the end and she pulled through, thankfully. Never underestimate the power of shame

The one positive I'd take from that though is that it seems like the 'shame' was being imposed internally based on obsolete social mores rather than by modern society. At least, that's what it sounds like if it all worked out and everyone's happy now.

So, I think when you see and read about people looking up their family members and getting in touch with their birth mothers (and possibly fathers) and the world hasn't ended and in fact they're all sitting around chatting having a nice cup of tea -- then it's suddenly possible.

Obliq

SpaceTime wrote: »

The one positive I'd take from that though is that it seems like the 'shame' was being imposed internally based on obsolete social mores rather than by modern society. At least, that's what it sounds like if it all worked out and everyone's happy now.

So, I think when you see and read about people looking up their family members and getting in touch with their birth mothers (and possibly fathers) and the world hasn't ended and in fact they're all sitting around chatting having a nice cup of tea -- then it's suddenly possible.

Well that's it exactly. But that internalised shame started when this 85 yr old women got pregnant "out of wedlock", age 17. At that time it was so shameful in society and these women carry that shame still, rightly or wrongly. I don't underestimate how much they and families who know about a member of their's in similar circumstances would still be against openness, not yet having experienced the freedom that it brings.

Bannasidhe

Obliq wrote: »

Well that's it exactly. But that internalised shame started when this 85 yr old women got pregnant "out of wedlock", age 17. At that time it was so shameful in society and these women carry that shame still, rightly or wrongly. I don't underestimate how much they and families who know about a member of their's in similar circumstances would still be against openness, not yet having experienced the freedom that it brings.

My OH's 45 years old camp as knickers never ever had a girlfriend house full of homoerotic art brother still isn't out to their parents...
OH was pushed out over 20 years ago via an anonymous phone call to her mother.

SpaceTime

Obliq wrote: »

Well that's it exactly. But that internalised shame started when this 85 yr old women got pregnant "out of wedlock", age 17. At that time it was so shameful in society and these women carry that shame still, rightly or wrongly. I don't underestimate how much they and families who know about a member of their's in similar circumstances would still be against openness, not yet having experienced the freedom that it brings.

I don't underestimate it. However, I think we need to get the message out as a society to them that they have nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about.

It would be a massive weight off a lot of these women's shoulders to know that if they do tell their stories that society is going to be accepting of them and quite sympathetic to their plight.

That's actually one area where the Churches (I'd include all of them in this) continue to do a lot of damage by continuing the 'shame' factor by making such a big deal about sex outside marriage and pregnancy outside marriage and quite a few other issues too e.g. the whole area of being still subtly (and sometimes not subtly) discriminatory towards LGBT people.

We *STILL* have a situation where a teacher for example could face being fired for any of those issues for living a life 'contrary to the ethos' of a school.
That's an absolutely intolerable situation in a modern democracy that protects absolutely everyone else against that kind of discrimination!

I Heart Internet

Catherine Corless' interview on Saturday's Irish Times (with Rosita Boland) was enlightening. Certainly more so than the hyperbolic media "coverage" up to then (and in some case, since then).

She was adament that she never described anyone as having been "dumped" and adament that there were 800 deaths on the Tuam site BUT they were categorically not contained within the concrete tank on site. There were also some details regarding the dates surrounding this infrastructure.

This may have already been covered here, but it does appear that there was a whole lot of jumping the gun on many fronts, including by people on here, in the absence of any real information or insight.

The sorry truth now is that very real issues regarding un-married mothers in Irish society, forced or coerced adoptions, poor living and medical conditions, and the churches treatement of unbaptised babies (a related issue) will be lost somewhat because of the hyperbole, discovered to be largely unfounded regarding, "800 babies in a septic tank."