Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Red Pepper

It is clear to me that none of the 796 children had a "proper" burial and they have nothing to mark their last resting place. I hope they do erect a memorial at the very least.

However the big question for me is whether or not they operated "dying rooms" which involved neglecting the "less marketable" babies until they died. I am not sure if this can ever be proven at this stage.

nagirrac

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

This is beyond appalling! Medical experimentation on babies and children? What is next? What is it going to take for Ireland to get rid of the influence of the RCC?

Unfortunately unethical medical trials on adults and children were commonplace in the 20th century, which thankfully led to the Medicines Act (in the UK) in 1968 in an effort to control such practices. I'm sure you are aware of thalidomide, the earliest cases I believe were in Australia and New Zealand where this untested drug was given to pregnant women effectively using them as guinea pigs. What is not as well known is that unethical clinical trials are still going on, just now in countries outside the "first" world where regulation is lax.

http://www.wemos.nl/files/Documenten%20Informatief/Bestanden%20voor%20'Medicijnen'/examples_of_unethical_trials_feb_2008.pdf

I understand your anger towards the RCC on this issue. Do you have the same anger towards the drug companies who pushed for this "research", and towards the medical boards in the various countries that sanctioned these trials? Should we call for the banning of the multinational drug companies involved in these despicable practices? No, but we should hold them accountable, just as the RCC or any organization should be held accountable for atrocities committed by its members.

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Would ordinary Germans hypothetically accept 92% of German schools being controlled by the Nazi Party, because sure that was ages ago and they are not like that anymore?

Ordinary Germans just elected a man to the European parliament who is a holocaust denier and thinks Hitler was a grand lad. The French just voted in great numbers for the National Front, who have much in common with the Nazi ideology. Difficult economic times do seem to bring out the worst in people.

Waitsian

Definitely worth a listen:

http://www.rte.ie/news/player/2014/0608/20593357-the-tuam-babies-inquiry/

Diarmuid Martin is the only one of the Catholic church hierarchy I have any time for (and that's saying something!)

Bannasidhe

While trying to ascertain when St Mary's home was connected to the main drainage network I happened upon this piece published in The Connacht Tribune , 23/01/1937 which states that local residents had petitioned for the removal of the septic tank on the grounds of the home due to the appalling smell.



The use of the word 'removal' rather than 'empty' got me thinking and I have come up with a theory.

This is conjecture based on the evidence currently available to me and put forward only as a possible scenario.

It is unlikely that the nuns dug graves. This would have been the job of the groundskeeper and/or his assistants.

Grave digging is backbreaking work.

It is possible that the groundskeeper and/or his assistants had a bright idea and to save themselves some hard labour decided to use the (recently emptied?) septic tank as a handy ready made tomb.

The nuns may not have been aware this was happening. However, if the nuns were unaware that would also imply no nun was present at the time of interring - or priest - and no funeral rights were conducted.

This, to me, would indicate that the disposal of the bodies was simply a way of getting rid of inconvenient waste or no importance.

It is also possible that the smell - which was so strong in the middle of winter as to spark a petition - was that of rotting corpses. This possibility does not mean my theory is incorrect, it just moves the time-line a bit to before 1937.

The average death a year was 22 - Frannie Hopkins is reported by some as saying there could be about 20 skeletal remains in there. That would equate to one year the groundskeeper and/or assistants did not have to dig graves.

Feedback welcome folks - this is still a theory I am working on.

Spring Onion

I would like to thanks Bannasidhe for contributing so clearly, insightfully and factually on this thread, I have learned a lot.

recedite

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

It was for the medical profession, as the consequence of a universal measure would be to end private practice, and the scope to charge people whatever they could afford.The medical profession certainly didn't want their remuneration to be determined as a result of Galway County Health Committee deciding what ratepayers would be willing to part with.

I really don't understand what you are on about. We have unmarried mothers giving birth in state run maternity hospitals nowadays, and a single parents allowance, but it has not put an end to GP's private practice.
Also I doubt that wealthiest members of society sent their pregnant daughters to such places, any more than they send them into the public ward of the national maternity hospital today.
The Galway County Health Committee is not, nor was it ever, in control of govt. health policy.

recedite

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It is possible that the groundskeeper and/or his assistants had a bright idea and to save themselves some hard labour decided to use the (recently emptied?) septic tank as a handy ready made tomb.

The nuns may not have been aware this was happening.

After the home was connected to mains sewage, it is highly unlikely the septic tank would have been emptied, unless some poor farmer was desperate to get his hands on some free fertilizer. The liquid fraction would drain away after a few months and the remainder would take on the consistency of damp compost. If bodies were put in at that stage, it would be a very grisly task. When putting a corpse in, you would see the rotting remains of the previous one staring back at you. The rats would have a field day. I think the average groundsman would have preferred to dig a shallow grave, given the option. It would not be like a church crypt, or a mausoleum above ground, where the atmosphere is dry.
When the cess pool/septic tank was in use, the corpses would have just slipped down beneath the surface of the water; much less grisly. At a guess, I'd say they stopped putting the bodies in a few months after the septic was disconnected from the drains, which would leave around 20 skeletons lying on the surface. All the previous corpses dumped in while it was still in use would have sank into the murky depths.
BTW a normal domestic septic tank fills up with sludge after about 10 years, and this has to be removed. In those days the sludge was just used raw as a smelly fertilizer, nowadays it is transported to a treatment plant and then turned into fertilizer pellets. So it is quite possible that a few partially decomposed loose bones ended up being spread on the fields around the area.

nagirrac

recedite wrote: »

Also I doubt that wealthiest members of society sent their pregnant daughters to such places..

Of course they didn't, but they were very quick to ensure that others' pregnant daughters were sent there. The RCC has always aligned itself with whoever is in power, to maintain their own power. Remember they railed against those fighting for independence and threatened excommunication, the harshest sentence for most in those days, but were very quick to embrace the new Irish government once independence was secured.

An interesting question for me is who was the dog and who was the tail in Irish society. Rather than the RCC dog wagging the state's tail, I tend to think it was the wealthy classes in the country using the apparatus of the state and the church to maintain economic control and concentrate it in the hands of the few. A bit like today really, with the church increasingly out of the equation.

The cui bono question here is to whose benefit was it to remove "fallen" women from society, and punish them to avoid repeat "offenses"? The easy answer is the church, but how did the church actually benefit? Could it be that those who had the most to lose used the church and state to maintain their dominance, and most importantly their lineage. The thoughts of "loose" lower class women tempting their sons into illicit unions with potential offspring must have been a terrifying concept for them.

smokingman

nagirrac wrote: »

Of course they didn't, but they were very quick to ensure that others' pregnant daughters were sent there. The RCC has always aligned itself with whoever is in power, to maintain their own power. Remember they railed against those fighting for independence and threatened excommunication, the harshest sentence for most in those days, but were very quick to embrace the new Irish government once independence was secured.

An interesting question for me is who was the dog and who was the tail in Irish society. Rather than the RCC dog wagging the state's tail, I tend to think it was the wealthy classes in the country using the apparatus of the state and the church to maintain economic control and concentrate it in the hands of the few. A bit like today really, with the church increasingly out of the equation.

The cui bono question here is to whose benefit was it to remove "fallen" women from society, and punish them to avoid repeat "offenses"? The easy answer is the church, but how did the church actually benefit? Could it be that those who had the most to lose used the church and state to maintain their dominance, and most importantly their lineage. The thoughts of "loose" lower class women tempting their sons into illicit unions with potential offspring must have been a terrifying concept for them.

I'm tempted to ask what the most profitable companies turnover was back then and who was on their board of management. There was a lot of money made by the religious orders and they'd have to spend it on contracts for food (I read they brought food in from afar to make sure no locals were poking around). I'm also guessing these companies would have been in the food trade. Might do a little research on that later.

Bannasidhe

Spring Onion wrote: »

I would like to thanks Bannasidhe for contributing so clearly, insightfully and factually on this thread, I have learned a lot.

*blush*

Bannasidhe is in danger of losing what is left of her mind surrounded as she is by texts detailing unremitting horror - this may be why Bannasidhe is referring to herself in the third person.

My thanks to Obliq for the leads on two of the 1937 committee members (I shall hunt those b*stards down!), and redecite for the info in septic tanks about which, being an urbanite, I know very very little.

All info people think relevant very welcome!

I will keep updating so you guys can pick my theory apart...

bumper234

Bannasidhe wrote: »

*blush*

Bannasidhe is in danger of losing what is left of her mind surrounded as she is by texts detailing unremitting horror - this may be why Bannasidhe is referring to herself in the third person.

My thanks to Obliq for the leads on two of the 1937 committee members (I shall hunt those b*stards down!), and redecite for the info in septic tanks about which, being an urbanite, I know very very little.

All info people think relevant very welcome!

I will keep updating so you guys can pick my theory apart...

Bumper234 wishes to apologise to Bannasidhe, even though you don't know this i have always thought of you as male now (for some reason) i have even more respect for you and what you have been through.

LionelNashe

ryan101 wrote: »

Seems a lot of the media, including the Irish times have questions to answer

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393

If it turns out that there is nothing like 800 bodies in that field, you can be sure that all the world's press won't be printing any clarifications. That wouldn't sell any newspapers.

What we know is that 796 children died in the home in 36 years. Catherine Corless says they're apparently not buried in the local graveyards. Some remains were found in a hollow under some concrete slabs 40 years ago. A map from 1892 has 'sewage tank' written at that spot or very near that spot. It's a big leap from this to say that there are 800 bodies 'dumped in a sewage tank' by evil nuns.

Since the Irish Times story, a lot of people, Graham Linehan included, have been saying that the number of bodies is not the point. However the whole 'mass grave', '800 babies dumped in a sewage tank' angle is exactly what caused all the shock and outrage, and caused the story to go viral. Fr Brian Darcy compared it to Nazi Germany. It wouldn't have made the news with a more accurate headline such as 'Extremely high infant mortality in overcrowded childrens' homes from 1925 to 1960'.

Spring Onion

LionelNashe wrote: »

It wouldn't have made the news with a more accurate headline such as 'Extremely high infant mortality in overcrowded childrens' homes from 1925 to 1960'.

Listening to the radio earlier, one journalist was angry saying that these high mortality rates have been highlighted/documented over the last few decades and yet everyone seems so surprised (especially our two faced politicians). It seems it did take the septic tank dumping to bring this story in the public arena. For me, I don't care where the babies were dumped, they clearing weren't buried with any respect whatsoever and they have been forgotten until now. I won't be happy until I have seen a memorial to these 800 children in Tuam and the thousands of others around Ireland.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Tried to find if it was available on-line but a copy would be held in the Boole Library in UCC author Rosemary Brown.

I haven't read it myself, my information is from a conversation I had with Rose about 12 years ago when she was about to submit.

For some reason, I'm thinking of that moment in "The Producers" when Richard De Bris says "I think it's a very important play. I, for one, never realized that the Third Reich meant Germany. I mean it's drenched with historical goodies like that."

recedite wrote: »

I really don't understand what you are on about. We have unmarried mothers giving birth in state run maternity hospitals nowadays, and a single parents allowance, but it has not put an end to GP's private practice.<...>

The Galway County Health Committee is not, nor was it ever, in control of govt. health policy.

I'm on about nothing. The fact of doctors' opposition to the plan is just a matter of public record. Nothing to do with me at all.

Prior to 1947, there was no Department of Health. Local authorities had a significant role in providing health related services, which were funded out of the rates. The system we know now basically dates back to 1970, when the Health Boards were established. The setting up of the HSE hasn't fundamentally changed how healthcare is funded, or what people are entitled to.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Spring Onion wrote: »

I won't be happy until I have seen a memorial to these 800 children in Tuam and the thousands of others around Ireland.

And tell us, would you be planning on visiting this memorial a lot? Maybe saying a few decades of the Rosary while you were there? I believe the plan is to get the Archbishop to consecrate the ground. That's nice.

Spring Onion

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

And tell us, would you be planning on visiting this memorial a lot? Maybe saying a few decades of the Rosary while you were there? I believe the plan is to get the Archbishop to consecrate the ground. That's nice.

Yes I will visit the memorial, I am not far from Tuam. And I will be pleased that those babies will be finally recognised. I am atheist so I will not pray. I expect some of the relations of those children will visit and find some solace and perhaps justice. I don't give a fiddlers what any Archbishop of Rome does. Have you any more questions?

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Spring Onion wrote: »

Have you any more questions?

Only one.

Why do folk in the West of Ireland get such pleasure out of wasting other people's money on stuff with no practical purpose?

obplayer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g_3gg4wk8c

Spring Onion

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Only one.

Why do folk in the West of Ireland get such pleasure out of wasting other people's money on stuff with no practical purpose?

I am not sure, to make the spring lambs stop screaming?

Quid pro quo, did you know your username is an anagram for "ill exuberance, fume god"?

robindch

Red Pepper wrote: »

However the big question for me is whether or not they operated "dying rooms" which involved neglecting the "less marketable" babies until they died. I am not sure if this can ever be proven at this stage.

I don't have the time to search, but so far as I recall, it was in this thread that somebody posted a link which suggested that all of the (large number of) babies who were "adopted" were in fully-abled, raising disturbing questions over exactly what happened to the inevitable number of kids who were not.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Spring Onion wrote: »

I am not sure, to make the spring lambs stop screaming?

I like it. Particularly as she comes round to his way of thinking.

obplayer

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I like it. Particularly as she comes round to his way of thinking.

This is supposed to be about babies and young children maltreated and not even given respect in death. What is your problem, and whatever it is can't you take it somewhere else? Please?

Obliq

obplayer wrote: »

This is supposed to be about babies and young children maltreated and not even given respect in death. What is your problem, and whatever it is can't you take it somewhere else? Please?

He gets like this every time there's an emotive subject being discussed. Don't rise to it :cool:

jank

obplayer wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g_3gg4wk8c

Of course everything on youtube is true. Perfect example of what I was talking about earlier.

gctest50

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

.........I believe the plan is to get the Archbishop to consecrate the ground. That's nice.

For sure - what next ? resurrect Joeseph Goebbels to give Auschwitz a lick of paint ?

robindch

robindch wrote: »

Any more comments like the above from anybody will see your friendly moderators deploy cards, cluesticks and banhammers with enthusiasm and without warning.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

And tell us, would you be planning on visiting this memorial a lot? Maybe saying a few decades of the Rosary while you were there? I believe the plan is to get the Archbishop to consecrate the ground. That's nice.

GCU Flexible Demeanour is taking a week's holiday for ignoring repeated mod instructions.

obplayer

jank wrote: »

Of course everything on youtube is true. Perfect example of what I was talking about earlier.

I did not say that what has been put on youtube was true, I simply informed people that it was on youtube.

Zubeneschamali

LionelNashe wrote: »

If it turns out that there is nothing like 800 bodies in that field, you can be sure that all the world's press won't be printing any clarifications.

While the septic tank detail is getting lots of headlines, the real scandal is what happened to the babies before they died, not after.

Neyite

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

While the septic tank detail is getting lots of headlines, the real scandal is what happened to the babies before they died, not after.

Precisely. The septic tank is only the story hook as it were.

What this does is it shines the spotlight on how these places were run, how the children were treated in their short lives. And I hope that spotlight does not go away for some time. The utter contempt they had for the little corpses shows how truly little humanity they had for the suffering when they lived.

We have known about unmarked graves in these homes for decades, and suspected from other revelations or individual anecdotes, how badly these children and women were treated. But that would not have made worldwide headlines probably without the septic tank angle to the extent that it is now finally forcing the hand of our reluctant politicians.

Spring Onion

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I like it. Particularly as she comes round to his way of thinking.

You never answered my question #1220