Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Cabaal

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you think it really matters how many bodies may be in the tank?

I don't.

I also don't think it does matter,
If there are 5 or 800 it makes no difference, it needs to be fully and properly investigated.

SpaceTime

Given the history, you'd have to wonder who'd send their kids to the Bessborough Creche!?!

The modern sign also appears to say "Mother and Baby Centre"

I'm sure the modern staff are lovely, but just the whole building's history would give me the creeps.

Bannasidhe

SpaceTime wrote: »

Given the history, you'd have to wonder who'd send their kids to the Bessborough Creche!?!

The modern sign also appears to say "Mother and Baby Centre"

Children are being withdrawn even now.

The Coordinator of Cork City Child Care is in melt down...

I Heart Internet

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you think it really matters how many bodies may be in the tank?

I don't.

One is too many.

One is too many. But it does matter how they got there and it does matter how many are there.

Bannasidhe

I Heart Internet wrote: »

One is too many. But it does matter how they got there and it does matter how many are there.

It matter how they got there - yes.

It doesn't matter how many are there.

One is too many.

robindch

I Heart Internet wrote: »

People were happy to go with the headlines and take them as fact. I wasn't, and was accused of trying to deny the story.

The only person who's obsessing about "800 babies in a septic tank" is you, I Heart Internet.

Everybody who isn't trying to point this out to you repeatedly and often is off discussing other issues.

Czarcasm

SpaceTime wrote: »

I don't underestimate it. However, I think we need to get the message out as a society to them that they have nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about.

It would be a massive weight off a lot of these women's shoulders to know that if they do tell their stories that society is going to be accepting of them and quite sympathetic to their plight.

That's actually one area where the Churches (I'd include all of them in this) continue to do a lot of damage by continuing the 'shame' factor by making such a big deal about sex outside marriage and pregnancy outside marriage and quite a few other issues too e.g. the whole area of being still subtly (and sometimes not subtly) discriminatory towards LGBT people.

We *STILL* have a situation where a teacher for example could face being fired for any of those issues for living a life 'contrary to the ethos' of a school.
That's an absolutely intolerable situation in a modern democracy that protects absolutely everyone else against that kind of discrimination!

ST you could go blue in the face telling people that society will support them, or that society is sympathetic to their plight, but the thing is, you're fighting against a massive mental barrier that tells them they don't care whether society supports them or not, they just don't want it out there.

I mean, you talk about modern society, but Bannasidhe hit the nail on the head in her post -

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I wouldn't go so far as to say she was 'fine' - it's just I am so disgustingly respectable (on paper anyway) that she finds it hard to object....

People will grudgingly 'accept' you if you're successful and you are a 'respectable' member of 'society'. I'm sorry for all the inverted commas, but we still have the class and social groups in this country (in any country really) where a socially disadvantaged unmarried mother is regarded as of lesser value to society than as an affluent and well educated unmarried mother.

To claim the same stigmas aren't present in "modern society" today that were prevalent 50 years ago really IS unfortunately underestimating the power of social pressure, and that's less to do with religion than it has to do with maintaining standards and social structure in society.

Those who rally against that pressure are very much in the minority. That's why we still have the laws the way they are today, and that's why online discussions really don't reflect the reality of the prejudices among social groups in society. In order to balance this discussion, you only need take a look at other social media sites like Facebook, Twitter and YouTube.

They're as equally valid a barometer of public opinion as a site like Boards.

I Heart Internet

robindch wrote: »

The only person who's obsessing about "800 babies in a septic tank" is you, I Heart Internet.

Everybody who isn't trying to point this out to you repeatedly and often is off discussing other issues.

The mistake and misinterpretation in the media and here is an important lesson when dealing with other issues around this story.

When I was questioning the "facts" around the 800 children's remains in a septic tank I was encouraged not to be trying to play down or deny the horror of the case. Now that it seems that the facts are emerging, I'm told not to dwell on those facts...

Bannasidhe

I Heart Internet wrote: »

The mistake and misinterpretation in the media and here is an important lesson when dealing with other issues around this story.

So write to the Press Complaints lot...!

The rest of us will continue campaigning for a judicial investigation, researching the facts and publishing the results.

robindch

I Heart Internet wrote: »

The mistake and misinterpretation in the media and here is an important lesson when dealing with other issues around this story.

With the greatest amount of respect which I can muster, I Heart Internet, you made it quite clear that you were referring to people and posts in this thread.

As you appear to have completely forgotten what you wrote forty minutes ago, here it is again. I've highlighted the relevant bit:

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I was keen to have a full investigation much earlier in this thread (still am btw) but the bulk of the conversation just revolved around the "fact" that 800 bodies were contained in a septic tank on the Tuam site. People were happy to go with the headlines and take them as fact. I wasn't, and was accused of trying to deny the story.

If you want to discuss the media, then make it clear that you're discussing the media. If you want to discuss posts in this thread, then make it clear you're discussing posts in this thread.

But don't go shifting goalposts in this silly fashion on this topic.

Bannasidhe

I Heart Internet wrote: »

The mistake and misinterpretation in the media and here is an important lesson when dealing with other issues around this story.

When I was questioning the "facts" around the 800 children's remains in a septic tank I was encouraged not to be trying to play down or deny the horror of the case. Now that it seems that the facts are emerging, I'm told not to dwell on those facts...

Ah - you did ninja edit.

Where were you told to 'Now that it seems that the facts are emerging, I'm told not to dwell on those facts.'

What 'facts' would those be?

All I saw was you come galloping in like the Lone Ranger with Rosita Boland's article (which was debunked days ago) and you were promptly supplied facts via links to both a video of her interview with Corless and a transcript of that interview and asked if you believe Boland correctly reported the substance of their conversation...

'

I Heart Internet

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ah - you did ninja edit.

Where were you told to 'Now that it seems that the facts are emerging, I'm told not to dwell on those facts.'

What 'facts' would those be?
'

Obliq wrote: »

Perhaps you should stop focussing on the septic tank yourself so, and actually do something about the real issues of these homes and the wider society by talking about that. Like we are.

Catherine Corless says that 800 bodies were not dumped in a septic tank.

I Heart Internet

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Catherine Corless says that 800 bodies were not dumped in a septic tank.

hmm, that's shooting quite loose with the truth.

Perhaps you could write it as

Catherine Corless has not said that 800 bodies were dumped in a septic tank

A subtle but essential difference. (An issue of omission, not commission. -Not saying something- is not as "informative" as -saying not something-)

Also, Catherine herself has said that there are at least 796 burial sites unknown for the Children's home at Tuam (again, at least not within a graveyard any sort of realistic/reasonable distance from the home).

She has intimated that a septic tank contains at least one of those.

If he actual number of bodies contained in the septic tank fits anywhere within the 1-796 number, then there is cause for outrage.

Bannasidhe

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Catherine Corless says that 800 bodies were not dumped in a septic tank.

Still not read the transcript eh Mr 'I'm ALL about the FACTS'

Let me help you out this once.

This is what Corless said. Notice it is not the same as what Boland said Corless said. That is a FACT.

Corless: Well, it’s not just the boys talking, it’s from other people around the area if you talk to them. They say that a few people came to see what the fuss was about. Someone called the parish priest to come up and to look at the area and to bless it. It’s only in the last month or so that I found out that these boys – now men – were still around. I didn’t have their names until about a month ago and spoke to them then.

Boland: Do you believe that there are all of the children in that grave, do you think that that is possible?”

Corless: I think it’s quite possible going from the boys’ explanation that it was full to the brim of bones. But still how many children in the tank, does it matter if it’s 500, 600? If there isn’t a full 796? 10 children in a septic tank? 20? Isn’t that horrific? Is it the numbers that makes it horrific?

http://www.rabble.ie/2014/06/07/late-and-off-the-point/

Zubeneschamali

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Catherine Corless says that 800 bodies were not dumped in a septic tank.

Wrong again, Catherine Corless only says that she never used the word "dumped".

Bannasidhe

Blog post by historian Fin Dwyer discussing the 'no-body knew what was going on until the 1990s' myth.

As early as 1931 the Cumann na nGaedheal government had conclusive evidence of widespread child abuse in Irish society when they received ‘The Carrigan Report...

...The then Garda commissioner Eoin O’Duffy had testified to the committee that there had been over four hundred reported cases of abuse of girls under the age of 18 between 1924 and 1929 including an “alarming… number of cases of interference with girls under 16 and with children under 11 years of age”. O Duffy estimated that these reflected at most 15 per cent of the actual crimes being committed....

... In this context the report was treated with hostility. The Department of Justice memo on the report in 1931 called it ‘practically without value’. Through 1932, two successive government cabinets, a secret Dáil committee representing all parties and the Standing Committee Of Irish Bishops viewed the report. Disturbingly the report was suppressed and none of these people who had seen its shocking details raised the disturbing findings in public....

... While the Carrigan Report and court prosecutions dealt with abuse in wider society, abuse in church run institutions was not completely unknown either. For example in 1935, 15-year-old John Byrne was killed in Artane Industrial School. He had been beaten by a teacher which was reported in The Irish Times. Although the coroner reported that the boy had died of disease...

....In the summer of 1946 the issue of institutional abuse was widely debated in the Irish papers when Fr Edward Flanagan, a native of Roscommon and well known US priest visited Ireland. He had earned widespread fame through his progressive institution Boystown which was the subject of a 1938 Oscar winning film. As he travelled across Ireland Flanagan was critical of the regime of physical abuse he witnessed in some of Ireland’s institutions....

....When Flanagan returned to the US his criticism was reported in the American press and a prolonged debate on the issue continued in Ireland through the late summer and autumn of 1946. Nothing was done as the government denied the charges.

http://irishhistorypodcast.ie/author/Findwyer/

Irish Historians have been screaming about what happened in these 'institutions' for decades and constantly been publishing evidence of how Irish officialdom not only ignored the abuse - but colluded and covered it up.

Now, maybe it's just me...but isn't in interesting that the current government intends to drop history as a compulsory subject in Secondary Schools...

Co-inky-dinks #3459.

I Heart Internet

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Wrong again, Catherine Corless only says that she never used the word "dumped".

So I'm correct.

Bannasidhe

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So I'm correct.

Sweetest divine!

dump
dʌmp/Submit
verb

past tense: dumped; past participle: dumped
1.
deposit or dispose of (rubbish, waste, or unwanted material), typically in a careless or hurried way

How would you describe it?

Placed with loving care accompanied by suitable rituals in a marked grave?

They were dumped anonymously in communal graves, a yet to be determined number were dumped in a septic tank, no records were kept.

robindch

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So I'm correct.

At this stage, IHI, it's beginning to look like you're here just to troll the conversation.

You can consider this a formal moderator warning to take part in an adult discussion about the thread topic or else be carded or banned for off-topic, self-centered rambling which is annoying just about everybody.

Bannasidhe

In one of the trials, 80 children allegedly became unwell after they were given a vaccine intended for cattle in a trial at five care homes and orphanages in Dublin in the mid 70s.

The information is contained in a report from the Chief Medical Officer of the Department of Health's report to the Oireachtas in the year 2000, obtained by Newstalk.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/report-vaccine-intended-for-cattle-given-to-children-in-mother-and-baby-homes-632872.html

But shure cattle were valuable....

Zubeneschamali

If you do a google news search for Catherine Corless today, you'll fine loads of links from the whitewash brigade:

Ireland: Historian refutes 'septic tank' story, The Tuam tank: another myth about evil Ireland, etc.

I Heart Internet is not the only one clutching at this straw.

I Heart Internet

I note Minister Quinn's comments, reported in an Examiner piece this morning: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/quinn-facts-first-before-any-mother-and-baby-home-inquiry-632904.html

It's quite a short piece:

The Education Minister said we should assemble the facts before agreeing to set up a full inquiry into the deaths of hundreds of babies at Mother and Baby homes in Ireland in the 1940s and 50s.

Ruairi Quinn said there is a lot of misinformation out there about the high mortality rates at the various homes which were run by religious orders.
He said that the State must first assemble the facts before deciding on whether an inquiry is needed.

"First and foremost, we must have an assemblage of all of the facts, not the lurid headlines - which were quite misleading – and then decide whether an investigation or anything else is actually necessary," he said.

"But we shall start with the facts … and it's not about looking for victims or looking to blame somebody, because, if anything, conservative Ireland was to blame - back in the 50s, and 40s, and 30s."

I find myself in agreement with Minister Quinn. I think there was quite a bit of misunderstanding regarding Catherine Corless' findings.

Hopefully the whole sorry episode (decades) in Irish society will be laid bare for scrutiny in the coming months.

Sorry if i came across as hectoring. I don't doubt everyone's desire to see the full facts emerge.

Zubeneschamali

Ruairi Quinn said : Nothing to see here, we have top men - top men! - working on an interdepartmental investigation which will, in the fullness of time, report to a subcommittee which will then be in a position to recommend a course of action to the full committee, which reports directly to the responsible Ministers, who can then bring that recommendation to Cabinet. Sometime around 2025.

Like we haven't heard that spoof before.

I Heart Internet

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Ruairi Quinn said : Nothing to see here, we have top men - top men! - working on an interdepartmental investigation which will, in the fullness of time, report to a subcommittee which will then be in a position to recommend a course of action to the full committee, which reports directly to the responsible Ministers, who can then bring that recommendation to Cabinet. Sometime around 2025.

Like we haven't heard that spoof before.

But there has to be some sensible middle ground here! Not the scenario that you depict above, but neither a scenario where the issue is investigated solely on the front pages.

A calm, clear, painstaking investigation is what Quinn seems to be calling for.

Akrasia

robindch wrote: »

The only person who's obsessing about "800 babies in a septic tank" is you, I Heart Internet.

Everybody who isn't trying to point this out to you repeatedly and often is off discussing other issues.

The protests by 'I Heart Internet' reminds me of someone getting stopped by the police for a tax and insurance check protesting that his insurance and tax are up to date while the gardai haul him off to jail for the 2 kilos of heroin they found on the back seat.

The septic tank brought this issue to the attention of the public, but on closer inspection, the mass grave was only the tip of the iceberg and despite the 'nothing to see here' brigade who pop up to tell us it's all in the past, the past looks like it's finally catching up to these people. Better late than never, I hope the truth is fully exposed in a timely manner

Bellatori

Today on the BBC website is the following article

The important bit in the article is this from the Archbishop

"The indications are that if something happened in Tuam, it probably happened in other mother and baby homes around the country," Dr Martin told RTÉ radio.

"That's why I believe we need a full-bodied investigation.

"There's no point investigating just what happened in Tuam and then next year finding out more.

"We have to look at the whole culture of mother and baby homes; they're talking about medical experiments there."

He added: "They're very complicated and very sensitive issues, but the only way we will come out of this particular period of our history is when the truth comes out."

WHen you see a headline that appears to be an RCC Archbishop calling for an enquiry one is inclined to be heartened. However, when you see what he is actually saying then you should worry. There are two ways of stalling and losing unpleasant findings in an inquiry. Firstly you have "The Irish government has set up an inter-departmental group to look at the case." which can then spend an age deciding what is and isn't in its purview and takes a very narrow remit, will lose focus and drag the affair on so long that no one left alive has any grip on the information OR you expand the enquiry so wide that any unpleasant facts are lost in a welter of detail that is totally irrelevant and can be used to bury the issue. The former is what the 'Iraq' inquiry or the Hutton inquiry vis a vis the Kelly suicide. The latter is what the Archbishop is trying for. Huge scope so no focus and the whole thing dies and is buried (pun intended) under a welter of detailed irrelevance.

I Heart Internet

Bellatori wrote: »

...........Huge scope so no focus and the whole thing dies and is buried (pun intended) under a welter of detailed irrelevance.

What do people think sholud be the scope of this (these?) enquiries?

I'd like a top-to-bottom review of operations, including routes into, support services (everything from medics to the guy delivering the milk) and, of course, those leaving the home and deaths (and burials) from the home.

I agree, a Tuam investigation (followed by other seperate investigations for other homes) would be best. Rather than an investigation so broad and sprawling to be unclear.

Bellatori

I Heart Internet wrote: »

What do people think sholud be the scope of this (these?) enquiries?

I'd like a top-to-bottom review of operations, including routes into, support services (everything from medics to the guy delivering the milk) and, of course, those leaving the home and deaths (and burials) from the home.

I agree, a Tuam investigation (followed by other seperate investigations for other homes) would be best. Rather than an investigation so broad and sprawling to be unclear.

There appears to be a prima facie case of extensive child abuse at Tuam. The Garda should start a police investigation into this forthwith... not some group of civil servants or politicians. A crime may well have been committed and this requires a police response.

If there is also evidence that Pharmaceutical companies paid to have drugs illegally tested on children then this also is a criminal act and again should face an immediate but separate response from the Garda.

The fact that the same Nuns may be involved is irrelevant. The alleged crimes are different and should be investigated separately.

Bannasidhe

I Heart Internet wrote: »

What do people think sholud be the scope of this (these?) enquiries?

I'd like a top-to-bottom review of operations, including routes into, support services (everything from medics to the guy delivering the milk) and, of course, those leaving the home and deaths (and burials) from the home.

I agree, a Tuam investigation (followed by other seperate investigations for other homes) would be best. Rather than an investigation so broad and sprawling to be unclear.

My uncle Dommie delivered the milk to Bessborough. He was 9 - 13 years old at the time (he got the delivery contract for Murphy's bacon factory when he was 13 and sold his milk round).

See, that wasn't so hard.

He is alive, in full possession of his mental facilities, and willing to testify. He does have cancer so they may need to get the finger out or all the witnesses will be dead and.... oh....hmmmmmmm...!

Bannasidhe

Bellatori wrote: »

There appears to be a prima facie case of extensive child abuse at Tuam. The Garda should start a police investigation into this forthwith... not some group of civil servants or politicians. A crime may well have been committed and this requires a police response.

If there is also evidence that Pharmaceutical companies paid to have drugs illegally tested on children then this also is a criminal act and again should face an immediate but separate response from the Garda.

The fact that the same Nuns may be involved is irrelevant. The alleged crimes are different and should be investigated separately.

Yeah..about that...

As Labour Health Minister in 1993, Brendan Howlin assured victims that an inquiry had found they suffered no ill effects from the experimental medical tests.

But last night mystery surrounded the whereabouts of the files relating to the inquiry -- and Mr Howlin admitted he did not remember the probe or its findings.

- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/files-go-missing-in-child-vaccine-inquiry-26673771.html#sthash.GLXaHFp2.dpuf