Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Spring Onion

http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/Mass-grave-of-up-to-800-dead-babies-exposed-in-County-Galway-.html

Why isn't story getting more attention? Nothing surprises me about the cruelty of religious orders anymore but this article suggests babies were neglected to die on purpose.

And most parents in Ireland still think it should force their children to join this organisation...

EDIT (robindch): the petition is here:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Frances_Fitzgerald_Irish_Minister_for_Justice_and_Equality_A_full_Gardai_investigation_into_the_mass_grave_in_Tuam_Co_Ga/

Busted Flat.

The catholic church preached forgiveness, and were supposed to give solace to their flock. Instead they turned out to be rapists, buggers, sick and evil people, and to top it all off they dumped over 200 children into a septic tank.
Is that what they thought the people in the missions. IE Nigeria Boko Haram.

Zed Bank

Catholic church is pure evil. Abominable.

Baked.noodle

That is shocking. I suppose there will be cries for an "apology". Any apology that has to be dragged out is not really an apology at all. Just an acknowledgement of guilt.

I Heart Internet

Spring Onion wrote: »

http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/Mass-grave-of-up-to-800-dead-babies-exposed-in-County-Galway-.html

Why isn't story getting more attention?

Because it's a story full of anecdote and missing evidence of what actually happened at the moment. Needs to be thoroughly investigated, but Ireland is full of unmarked graves unfortunetly. Most have quite mundane (and sad) explanations.

shruikan2553

Its amazing how the church just pretends these event never happened and then harp on about morality. Cant believe some of them werent closed until the 90s.

Hotblack Desiato

People accuse the Irish Times of being "anti-catholic" but it hasn't reported this.

A couple of days ago I thought it was their usual slowness (waiting for confirmation) but that can't be the case now.

Ironically it's regarded by the true believers, who still miss the Irish Press, as the most anti-catholic (pro-protestant?) paper around. IMHO they give way too much undeserved respect to religion of all stripes and its associated bull54it, for example the appalingly poor recent series of articles by Joe Humphries.

lazygal

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Because it's a story full of anecdote and missing evidence of what actually happened at the moment. Needs to be thoroughly investigated, but Ireland is full of unmarked graves unfortunetly. Most have quite mundane (and sad) explanations.

Is there anything the church can't explain away?

evolving_doors

I heard an interview on the radio. Yesterday on newstalk at about 12:30

Basically...
Healthy babies earmarked for 'export'.
Sick or disabled babies left to die after birth in 'dying rooms'... I wouldn't agree with the above poster who said the explanations were just 'sad and mundane', this was organised murder no different to auschwitz.
The researcher made the point that she couldn't find any records of any children being adopted who had a disability...so what happened to them.
The mortality rate was twice the national average.
She said it is often claimed by some that the religious orders were the only ones who would take these mothers and they did their best with limited means...but , the reality is that these different orders were competing by tender process to take in the mothers. The headage payment by the state was the average industrial wage at the time ... now consider the money that was being made:
1. Headage payment from state yet the women were kept in substandard prison like conditions.
2. Women were slave labour for the orders.
3. Babies taken and presumably sold.

This case isn't just sad ... its organised slavery and murder. The time for historians investigating is over, it should be handed over to the guards and these babies remains should be examined to determine the causes of death.

Flippyfloppy

These homes were baby farms for the nuns. Nothing more , nothing less. Except, as an added bonus for the nuns a chance to demean and bully people. As usual, with the Catholic Church, they can do what they want for money.

Puppy farms aren't legal? There's uproar about what's going on in Pakistan in the name of religion- stoning a pregnant woman to death for adultery. This is not much different- same breach of human rights. Imprisoning young women for adultery when mostly they were raped by today's standards, or in love, or made a mistake. Then forcing labour on them for penance and selling their babies, or neglecting the disabled/sick ones until they died.

The last place closed in 1968 I think.

But because it's the irish Catholic Church , it's nobodies business, everyone turns a blind eye, cos it's graaaand ya know?


And to rub salt into the wound, there is anecdotal reports of the present day nuns treating people like naughty children when they enquire about their birth Certs/ lost siblings/mothers. Refusing information etc. Bloody Bizarro world is what it is.

robindch

Armelodie wrote: »

The time for historians investigating is over, it should be handed over to the guards and these babies remains should be examined to determine the causes of death.

Can somebody explain to me why the State Pathologist hasn't apparently been called in?

Flippyfloppy

robindch wrote: »

Can somebody explain to me why the State Pathologist hasn't apparently been called in?

Good question. Just goes to show the attitude still had in Ireland.

Doctor DooM

Am I reading this right? They left kids to die?!?

Mr_A

Piece in the Examiner: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/call-for-inquiry-into-mother-and-baby-home-deaths-632129.html

Quote:

"The research suggests that the mortality rate in these homes was in excess of double the national average," she said.

"These were state-funded homes. Anybody who suggests the nuns were doing their best….They were NOT doing their best. They tendered for this business (and) wanted this business.

"They got a headage payment for every mother and child in their so-called care, which was greater at the time than the average industrial wage."

Kiwi in IE

When was the last child buried there? If it is within a timeframe that it is possible that anyone involved may still be alive, then a mass murder investigation should be commenced?

The cause of death needs to be determined in the case of all the bodies. Even if it is not determined to be direct murder, there are numerous other charges to be answered; neglect, failure to provide the necessities of life, concealment of human remains?

In addition to an full murder investigation by the Irish State, I think it's also long overdue that the RCC as an institution were brought to the Hague to answer charges of Crimes Against Humanity.

Excuses such as "Well that's just the way it was" may be relevant if we were talking about 1660, but it we are more likely to be talking about 1960! Participants of the Holocaust were charged for their crimes against humanity, so should the RCC be charged for theirs.

This is a great example to show exactly how much the Catholic Church cares about babies!

Kiwi in IE

How much of the RCC's opposition to contraception and abortion is related the loss of their baby farming businesses?

lazygal

All the guff about the unborn and human dignity and then this is found.

eviltwin

lazygal wrote: »

All the guff about the unborn and human dignity and then this is found.

What's even more shocking is that this grave has been known about by locals for years. The local woman who brought this story to the Daily Mail was on the radio a few days ago talking about it and the whole thing is staggering. Some of these "babies" were as old as 9 yrs :eek: The death rate was one child every fortnight which was way above the average even for a home like this. It would make you wonder what was going on in that place that these children were denied a decent burial and just tossed away like rubbish

GhostInTheRuins

This is absolutely sick :mad:

evolving_doors

eviltwin wrote: »

What's even more shocking is that this grave has been known about by locals for years. The local woman who brought this story to the Daily Mail was on the radio a few days ago talking about it and the whole thing is staggering. Some of these "babies" were as old as 9 yrs :eek: The death rate was one child every fortnight which was way above the average even for a home like this. It would make you wonder what was going on in that place that these children were denied a decent burial and just tossed away like rubbish

Folk from the area knew there were baby graves their however it was spoken of in terms of ' babies from the famine era'...
I wonder were these burials done in the dark of night, could you imagine the caretaker or whoever doing this week in week out. And do you know they probably justified themselves by saying 'shur aren't we doing them a favour as they wouldn't be allowed into regular consecrated ground.

Only thing folks, this has to go political before the gardai will touch it so maybe contact your local TD and ask what's being done. Only way FG will act is if theres a few votes to be had. In saying that though the lady on the interview was saying that no politician would go near it for years no matter what party.

pconn062

So I read an article on this a few days ago, and (naively) assumed that there was a full investigation into this. So we have a mass grave with up to 800 babies/children in it at the site of a Catholic "care" home, some of whom died from malnutrition (ie starving) and the guards haven't been called in to investigate?? Am I missing something here??

mikom

pconn062 wrote: »

Am I missing something here??

This..............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVcazh3ghNY

pconn062

^^^^

That's pretty disturbing too.

Busted Flat.

Armelodie wrote: »

Folk from the area knew there were baby graves their however it was spoken of in terms of ' babies from the famine era'...
I wonder were these burials done in the dark of night, could you imagine the caretaker or whoever doing this week in week out. And do you know they probably justified themselves by saying 'shur aren't we doing them a favour as they wouldn't be allowed into regular consecrated ground.

Only thing folks, this has to go political before the gardai will touch it so maybe contact your local TD and ask what's being done. Only way FG will act is if theres a few votes to be had. In saying that though the lady on the interview was saying that no politician would go near it for years no matter what party.

Did I misunderstand what happened, my understanding is the children were thrown in a septic tank, and not buried. Please correct me if I'am wrong.

shruikan2553

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Did I misunderstand what happened, my understanding is the children were thrown in a septic tank, and not buried. Please correct me if I'am wrong.

The hole they put them in used to contain a water tank from my understanding, they couldnt have been assed to at least dig a hole for these people.

Brian Shanahan

Armelodie wrote: »

Sick or disabled babies left to die after birth in 'dying rooms'... I wouldn't agree with the above poster who said the explanations were just 'sad and mundane', this was organised murder no different to auschwitz.

Actually it is a bit different to Auschwitz-Birkenau, but fortunately there is another Nazi policy, that of the Life Unworthy of Life* programmes after the Nazis got rid of the gas vans (which lead incidentally to Auschwitz-Birkenau and the other Death's Head camps), which was to lock up the victims and let them starve, or house them in unsanitary, crowded conditions and let Typhus and other fatal diseases take their course.

*Said programme was to get rid of mental hospital patients, people too socialist/communist to be sane in the eyes of the NSDAP, and children born not Aryan enough for the regime. Many thousands were killed.

Brian Shanahan

robindch wrote: »

Can somebody explain to me why the State Pathologist hasn't apparently been called in?

Statute of limitations, probably. I hear there's a special 1 nanosecond limit for all crimes committed by the rcc.

GoodBridge

If anyone has any constructive ideas on how to demand this is investigated properly, please post. It isn't acceptable and cannot be dismissed and forgotten about. List of TDs emails and contact numbers here: http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/members_emails/deputyemails20140403.xls.

If there's no investigation it means we accept that certain organisations are above the law. Is that the kind of society you want to live in? Remember: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".

Busted Flat.

Was this the churches Auschwitz-Birkenau. Did they send the inferior in their eyes to this hell hole. What part of the country did these girls come from, was this the dumping ground for the guys in the frocks.

iguana

GoodBridge wrote: »

If anyone has any constructive ideas on how to demand this is investigated properly, please post. It isn't acceptable and cannot be dismissed and forgotten about. List of TDs emails and contact numbers here: http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/members_emails/deputyemails20140403.xls.

If there's no investigation it means we accept that certain organisations are above the law. Is that the kind of society you want to live in? Remember: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".

What about an Avaaz (or similar) petition calling on the Irish government to initiate a full criminal investigation? It could drum up both national and international pressure. If we get a significant amount of signatures and it's still ignored we could move on to publicising their reticence in the face of public pressure. Lets try to ensure this doesn't go away.

I Heart Internet

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Am I reading this right? They left kids to die?!?

That's a claim that is being made alright. Perhaps the reason it's not more prominent in national media, though, is that there is scant evidence to say this claim is factual.

Pwindedd

So what happens to the remains now, they just stay there... ?

shruikan2553

I Heart Internet wrote: »

That's a claim that is being made alright. Perhaps the reason it's not more prominent in national media, though, is that there is scant evidence to say this claim is factual.

What makes you think it isnt? Im sure there could be a completely innocent reason for these representatives who guide our morality and spirituality to have thrown the bodies of the children of those they locked away into a pit unmarked. Sure look at the churches stance on abortion, they would have hardly not treated these dead children with respect.

Busted Flat.

Pwindedd wrote: »

So what happens to the remains now, they just stay there... ?

It's a can the church or state is scared of. They will hope it will go away, just like they thought the whistle blowers would go away.

I Heart Internet

shruikan2553 wrote: »

What makes you think it isnt? Im sure there could be a completely innocent reason for these representatives who guide our morality and spirituality to have thrown the bodies of the children of those they locked away into a pit unmarked. Sure look at the churches stance on abortion, they would have hardly not treated these dead children with respect.

You say thrown, how do you know they were thrown? You're just indulging in a fantasy of your own making with close to zero insight on the matter at hand.

shruikan2553

I Heart Internet wrote: »

You say thrown, how do you know they were thrown? You're just indulging in a fantasy of your own making with close to zero insight on the matter at hand.

Oh sorry, Im sure they were carefully placed, helps make sure theres enough room for everyone.

Busted Flat.

I Heart Internet wrote: »

You say thrown, how do you know they were thrown? You're just indulging in a fantasy of your own making with close to zero insight on the matter at hand.

Do you climb into a septic tank and place a child's body in a safe place, or do you drop it through it's 5cm /5cm opening. The first would not be possible. As regards some posters saying it was a water tank probably trying to be polite, who puts a water tank below ground.

JohnFalstaff

I Heart Internet wrote: »

You say thrown, how do you know they were thrown? You're just indulging in a fantasy of your own making with close to zero insight on the matter at hand.

Steady on horse. What sort of insight are you looking for here?

You're picking holes in the wording of how these poor children were placed into their premature grave?

Why not instead address the issue at hand - that these innocent children were left to die by the Catholic Church.

I know what went on in the Home in Tuam. Those poor kids were left to die.

Lukker-

Heard about this locally a few weeks ago, can't believe it hasn't been picked up nationally by now.

I Heart Internet

JohnFalstaff wrote: »

Why not instead address the issue at hand - that these innocent children were left to die by the Catholic Church.

I know what went on in the Home in Tuam. Those poor kids were left to die.

Wow, so you've been to the Gardai with this information, I presume? I'd expect so.

Busted Flat.

Lukker- wrote: »

Heard about this locally a few weeks ago, can't believe it hasn't been picked up nationally by now.

Do you expect Dobbo to upset the ( as the bert would would say) apple tart.

JohnFalstaff

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Wow, so you've been to the Gardai with this information, I presume? I'd expect so.

You trot this line out a lot. Again deflecting from the real issue.

How do you feel when you hear of 800 dead babies buried in an unmarked grave who died in the care of the Catholic church?

I Heart Internet

JohnFalstaff wrote: »

You trot this line out a lot. Again deflecting from the real issue.

So you haven't been to the guards!!!!? Why not, if you knew what happened? That' shocking.

johnfalstaff wrote: »

How do you feel when you hear of 800 dead babies buried in an unmarked grave who died in the care of the Catholic church?

Very sad, and eager to get the bottom of it. Find out which of these claims have basis in fact and which are fiction.

eviltwin

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So you haven't been to the guards!!!!? Why not, if you knew what happened? That' shocking.



Very sad, and eager to get the bottom of it. Find out which of these claims have basis in fact and which are fiction.

I think the gardai have greater priorities than this, the last death was in the 60's and more than likely the people involved are dead. It would be appropriate for the state to try and identity these children and at the very least give them a human burial.

Lukker-

eviltwin wrote: »

I think the gardai have greater priorities than this, the last death was in the 60's and more than likely the people involved are dead. It would be appropriate for the state to try and identity these children and at the very least give them a human burial.

1965 isn't that long ago. That was the most recent date, so that's only about 50 years ago. Someone is alive that knows the full story so it's fully worth a full investigation, even if the offenders are long dead the truth about this can't stay buried.

I Heart Internet

eviltwin wrote: »

I think the gardai have greater priorities than this, the last death was in the 60's and more than likely the people involved are dead. It would be appropriate for the state to try and identity these children and at the very least give them a human burial.

So JohnFalstaff should have gone to some arm of the state, HSE, etc, etc. record what he "knows". Unless of course all he knows are stories....

I Heart Internet

Lukker- wrote: »

1965 isn't that long ago. That was the most recent date, so that's only about 50 years ago. Someone is alive that knows the full story so it's fully worth a full investigation, even if the offenders are long dead the truth about this can't stay buried.

JohnFalstaff claims to know the full story but won't bring it to the authorities.

Hotblack Desiato

It doesn't matter how gruesome the crime, there will always be someone along to minimise, deny and obfuscate, for the greater good of the holy roman catholic church.

Flippyfloppy

Lukker- wrote: »

1965 isn't that long ago. That was the most recent date, so that's only about 50 years ago. Someone is alive that knows the full story so it's fully worth a full investigation, even if the offenders are long dead the truth about this can't stay buried.

I wonder would elderly nuns ever be brought into a station for questioning in Roman Catholic ireland??

robindch

The story seems to be getting out there - there was an opinion piece on TheJournal yesterday and Hildegarde Naughton raised the horror story in the Seanad on Thursday:

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/mass-grave-galway-tuam-1494001-May2014/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TelHCLSXoQ

I can't help but get the impression that there's a big, stinking mass of deep, dark secrets waiting to be exposed about homes like this, and that what we're seeing now and in the past few years is, sadly, only the start of what will in a matter of a few years come to be yet another RCC induced national shame. It sickens me to my core that our institution of government hasn't done and isn't currently doing more to get to the bottom of it all; that it seemingly favours the reputation of a fading church more than it does the lives and dignity of its own citizens.