Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Bannasidhe

Obliq wrote: »

Goodness, you're so predictable. You spend days giving out about hyperbole and exaggeration, and then just can't contain yourself eh? Saturday night is a reasonable Irish excuse of course.

Aye.

Nowt like a bit of faux outrage about what one considers faux outrage.

Or as Terry Hall put it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEx_ByPS9xQ

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Obliq wrote: »

You spend days giving out about hyperbole and exaggeration, and then just can't contain yourself eh?

Ah, ffs, can you aim a little higher than the usual Irish whinge of "you're no better".

As to what you're saying, what I'm doing is provocation. That's not exaggeration. I've included above the headlines from media reports that are just plain wrong. They're not provocative. They're just wrong.

You know, even if we do find 800 babies in a septic tank - say, next week - those headlines will still have been wrong. And there's precious few people posting around here with the intellectual and ethical equipment to deal with that.

Obliq

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Aye.

Nowt like a bit of faux outrage about what one considers faux outrage.

Or as Terry Hall put it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEx_ByPS9xQ

Great choice :cool: My bedtime song so. Nightie night all....

Obliq

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Ah, ffs, can you aim a little higher than the usual Irish whinge of "you're no better".

Ah yeah, probably could, if it was worth rising to...

As to what you're saying, what I'm doing is provocation. That's not exaggeration. I've included above the headlines from media reports that are just plain wrong. They're not provocative. They're just wrong.

You know, even if we do find 800 babies in a septic tank - say, next week - those headlines will still have been wrong. And there's precious few people posting around here with the intellectual and ethical equipment to deal with that.

In answer to bolded parts above: Yes dear. No dear. All right. Nope. I'll take your word for it.

And to the last sentence - I knows. We hates em precious. Hates em all.

smokingman

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Ah, ffs, can you aim a little higher than the usual Irish whinge of "you're no better".

As to what you're saying, what I'm doing is provocation. That's not exaggeration. I've included above the headlines from media reports that are just plain wrong. They're not provocative. They're just wrong.

You know, even if we do find 800 babies in a septic tank - say, next week - those headlines will still have been wrong. And there's precious few people posting around here with the intellectual and ethical equipment to deal with that.

I could have another relative in one of those unmarked graves so I'll ask nicely if you could refrain from treating this like you do if you could.
I'm looking for answers through all the bad journalism and everything else that's just plain wrong in this country.

A bit of empathy wouldn't go astray.

obplayer

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Ah, ffs, can you aim a little higher than the usual Irish whinge of "you're no better".

As to what you're saying, what I'm doing is provocation. That's not exaggeration. I've included above the headlines from media reports that are just plain wrong. They're not provocative. They're just wrong.

You know, even if we do find 800 babies in a septic tank - say, next week - those headlines will still have been wrong. And there's precious few people posting around here with the intellectual and ethical equipment to deal with that.

A lot more manners and a great deal less arrogance would not go amiss.

ezra_pound

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

So maybe its not the religion, per se? Maybe Irish Buddhists would exhibit similar behaviours?

No. Buddhists would not unceremoniously dump childrens'remains in a disused septic tank. That you can be damn sure of.

Buddhists do not debase the value of life of children born out of wedlock.

Czarcasm

ezra_pound wrote: »

No. Buddhists would not unceremoniously dump childrens'remains in a disused septic tank. That you can be damn sure of.

Buddhists do not debase the value of life of children born out of wedlock.

Ehh, not to stray too far away from the point of the thread, but Buddhists are people too -

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-07-24/news/ct-met-monk-sex-cases-20110724_1_thai-monks-buddhist-monks-paul-numrich

Bannasidhe

The religious order behind three of Ireland’s largest and most notorious mother-and-baby homes is unable to confirm how many children were buried on the sites or if they were all buried in coffins.

The Sacred Heart Sisters, which operated three mother-and-baby homes in Bessborough in Cork, Castlepollard in Westmeath and Sean Ross Abbey in Tipperary, said it would “require some time to provide a definitive answer to the query”.

The religious order could not offer any details as to the number of children buried on the grounds of the homes....

...“Again it will require some time to provide a definitive answer to the question. At this time, it is probably impossible at this stage to confirm or otherwise whether the children were buried in shrouds or coffins. In light of the fact that the Congregation was left to deal with the burials of the children, we would imagine that the children were interred in shrouds or coffins,” ...

...The Order was also unable to clarify whether or not all the children were baptised but said that “all children were given burials where their families were not in a position to take them home”.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/nuns-have-no-details-of-buried-children-271272.html#.U5M6GEEM5TQ.facebook

As Susan Lohan of the Adoption Rights Alliance points out, it seems implausible that the order can state with absolute certainty that all the families of deceased children were contacted with a view to arranging burial but impossible to say exactly how many children were buried in the grounds.

As for the issue of whether or not all the children were buried in coffins. I have seen new paper ads from the time where the Galway Health Board called for coffin suppliers to tender for the contract to supply Tuam - cost to be meet out of the rates - and I find it hard to believe that the same practice was not in place in Cork, Tipperary and Westmeath.

UPDATE: Adoption Rights Now estimate 300-500 children buried in Castlepollard.

According to the organisation Adoption Rights Now (ARN), there may be as many as 500 babies buried in the “little angels” plot at Castlepollard.
ARN claims that 2800 to 3000 babies were born in Castlepollard. Of these, “2,500 were adopted out and between 300 to 500 died although this figure could be higher (no one knows the actual numbers)”.
On the site, there is a plaque, erected in the 1990s, that reads: “In memory of God’s special angels interred in this cemetary (sic)”.
As many as 278 children born to mothers in the Castlepollard Mother and Child Home are believed to have been adopted by American couples, and brought up in the US before the home closed in 1971.

- See more at: http://www.westmeathexaminer.ie/news/roundup/articles/2014/06/06/4030756-/#sthash.sOCiXmBs.dpuf

ezra_pound

Czarcasm wrote: »

Ehh, not to stray too far away from the point of the thread, but Buddhists are people too -

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-07-24/news/ct-met-monk-sex-cases-20110724_1_thai-monks-buddhist-monks-paul-numrich

What's your point?

I said :
"Buddhists would not unceremoniously dump childrens'remains in a disused septic tank. That you can be damn sure of.

Buddhists do not debase the value of life of children born out of wedlock."

- the fact that three monks abused a girl is kind of beside the point.

Czarcasm

ezra_pound wrote: »

What's your point?

I said :
"Buddhists would not unceremoniously dump childrens'remains in a disused septic tank. That you can be damn sure of.

Buddhists do not debase the value of life of children born out of wedlock."

- the fact that three monks abused a girl is kind of beside the point.

My point is that you can't actually say with any degree of certainty what Buddhists would or wouldn't do. They're people, just like any other religion adherents you can think of, and as people, they are just as capable of cruelty and dehumanization as anyone else. Just because they're Buddhist doesn't make them special or any different from anyone else.

Bannasidhe

2,051 children and babies in Irish care homes were given a one-shot diphtheria vaccine for international drugs giant Burroughs Wellcome between 1930 and 1936.

The report adds that no evidence exists that consent was ever sought.

Historian Michael Dwyer who unearthed the documentations says that no records of how many may have died or suffered debilitating side-effects as a result are in existence....

...Dwyer, a lecturer at Cork University’s School of History, told the Irish Daily Mail that he found the child vaccination data by trawling through tens of thousands of medical journal articles and archive files.

He said the trials were carried out before the vaccine was made available for commercial use in the UK.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Religious-orders-allowed-over-2000-Irish-children-to-be-used-in-medical-experiments.html

It is quite possible that some of these people used in the experiments are still alive today (most would be in their 80s)

nagirrac

ezra_pound wrote: »

What's your point?
- the fact that three monks abused a girl is kind of beside the point.

It's actually exactly the point. It is extremely naïve to claim that one group of humans are capable of doing good and another group doing evil. The evidence from history is that all humans, with the exception of perhaps a number you can easily count, are capable of both good and evil. Even someone who on the surface appeared to be doing great good, like Mother Teresa, was subsequently found to be also capable of cruelty. Specifically on Buddhists, while they arguably might be less likely to commit atrocities, the evidence from Laos at least demonstrates that individual Buddhists are very capable of such behavior.

I also think the use of the word "dump" is unfortunate in this case as there is zero evidence to date that bodies were dumped. There are mass graves containing thousands of remains all over Ireland from famine times, would we say these bodies were dumped?

While the influence of RCC doctrine is clearly a huge factor in this case, there are other factors to consider such as inheritance, poverty, and the human behavioral need to find victims to blame in time of adversary. While the excuse of "the times that were in it" is generally a poor one, the reality is you are much more likely to find atrocities in bad economic times than in good. Germany for example collapsed economically in the 1930s which goes a long way to explaining why victims had to be found to blame this misfortune on.

Bellatori

ezra_pound wrote: »

...- the fact that three monks abused a girl is kind of beside the point.

It always is. That is why we have the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.

robindch

robindch wrote: »

Cut out the tart retorts. They add nothing to this thread.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Oh, absolutely. This boring, stifling, prissy discussion needs ridicule if its to have any hope of connecting to something life affirming. [...] So here's some more background music to fabricate outrage by.

Any more comments like the above from anybody will see your friendly moderators deploy cards, cluesticks and banhammers with enthusiasm and without warning.

Kiwi in IE

This is beyond appalling! Medical experimentation on babies and children? What is next? What is it going to take for Ireland to get rid of the influence of the RCC? Does there need to be an investigation into the materials used for furniture and household fittings in RCC establishments dating up until the 1960's? And someone in After Hours was appalled that I compared the RCC to the Third Reich the other day? Never mind Godwin. It is a totally appropriate comparison. The control over the education system and the general apathy toward same is mind boggling!

Would ordinary Germans hypothetically accept 92% of German schools being controlled by the Nazi Party, because sure that was ages ago and they are not like that anymore?

Red Pepper

I am under the impression that many are being "excommunicated" from the AH thread on this subject.

Bannasidhe

An expert survey of what is thought to be the burial site of 796 babies in Tuam has uncovered two areas of interest where anomalies in the soil indicate likely human activity beneath the surface.

The survey recommends further investigation and experts say if we are to find out anything more a dig would be necessary.

The Irish Mail on Sunday can also reveal that the Sisters of Bon Secours, who are at the centre of the scandal, had the remains of 12 members of the order exhumed and re-buried in a cemetery in Knock before they abandoned their base in Galway in 2001 – after selling property to the Western Health Board for a reported €4m.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2651766/We-need-dig-babies-graves-Ground-Penetrating-Radar-reveals-lies-beneath-Tuam-Home-site.html#ixzz342b9v2JV

recedite

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The State bowed down to the dictators in cassocks and not only never challenged them (with rare exceptions such as Noel Browne), it rode on the RCC's slipstream to gain authority for itself.

When you consider the hatchet job that was done on Noel Browne by the RCC when he tried to improve things for the women, it explains why "the State bowed down". The church made sure that successive governments were comprised of "approved" politicians with approved policies. Their endorsement or condemnation of certain politicians from the pulpit coming up to election time was a big influence.
Of course, that is not to absolve the electorate of responsibility, because they allowed themselves to be influenced and dictated to by the RCC in this way. I suppose that was inevitable though, given that they were dependent on the RCC all through their lives for their education and healthcare. Which in turn was paid for by the State making these payments to the church. All in all, a vicious circle of influence that we are still trying to break free of.

Brownes "mother and child scheme" would have cut out the church as the middleman. It would have diverted the headage payments that the State was paying to the nuns, instead providing financial help and healthcare direct to the women and their "illegitimate" babies. He advocated the use of antibiotics as an alternative to prayers and vigils.

Browne introduced mass free screening for tuberculosis sufferers and sold department assets to finance his campaign. This, with the introduction of Streptomycin, helped dramatically reduce the incidence of tuberculosis in Ireland. However during his term as Minister for Health, Browne would come in conflict with the Catholic Church and the medical profession over the Mother and Child Scheme. This plan, also introduced by the 1947 Health Act, provided for free state-funded healthcare for all mothers and children aged under 16, with no means test, a move which was regarded as radical at the time in Ireland, but not in most of Europe. The Church ran most hospitals and resented the idea that a "public body" could run them as well. ...
Browne's resignation speech to the Dáil was made on 12 April 1951, giving his version of events. In particular he deplored that the government had passed on his Scheme to the Church for approval, taking care to describe it to the Church as his plan and not as government policy, giving him no option but to resign as minister. The Taoiseach, John A. Costello, immediately retorted that - ".. I have seldom listened to a statement in which there were so many—let me say it as charitably as possible—inaccuracies, misstatements and misrepresentations", and delivered his full reply several hours later.
The ultimate result of this conflict was to remove him from mainstream politics. He resigned with effect on 11 April 1951 as Minister for Health. Browne was even expelled from Clann na Poblachta, which was considered quite a radical party...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No%C3%ABl_Browne

Bannasidhe

recedite wrote: »

When you consider the hatchet job that was done on Noel Browne by the RCC when he tried to improve things for the women, it explains why "the State bowed down". The church made sure that successive governments were comprised of "approved" politicians with approved policies. Their endorsement or condemnation of certain politicians from the pulpit coming up to election time was a big influence.
Of course, that is not to absolve the electorate of responsibility, because they allowed themselves to be influenced and dictated to by the RCC in this way. I suppose that was inevitable though, given that they were dependent on the RCC all through their lives for their education and healthcare. Which in turn was paid for by the State making these payments to the church. All in all, a vicious circle of influence that we are still trying to break free of.

Brownes "mother and child scheme" would have cut out the church as the middleman. It would have diverted the headage payments that the State was paying to the nuns, instead providing financial help and healthcare direct to the women and their "illegitimate" babies. He advocated the use of antibiotics as an alternative to prayers and vigils.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No%C3%ABl_Browne

I had always been of that view but I have to say a colleague of mine did her PhD thesis on the Mother and Child Scheme and she too expected to see that the main opposition was the RCC for the reasons you stated.

To her complete surprise - that was not what the evidence demonstrated. The evidence indicates the scheme was killed by the medical consultants and that the religious orders - while they had reservations about it- were not universally opposed and some in fact welcomed the initiative.

Noel Browne didn't help matters either. He was an expert in p*ssing off even his strongest allies.

Kiwi in IE

I have often found the attitude that marriage is some sort of magic spell hilarious, ignorant and absurd.

It seems that it was not that long ago that marriage really was a magic spell that kept the wolf (RCC) from the door and boogeyman away from your children.

recedite

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The evidence indicates the scheme was killed by the medical consultants..

I'd be interested to see that evidence. Certainly there was a feeling around at the time among the conservative elite that the proposed measure was a bit too "socialist".

Browne was not exactly a renegrade himself. He is on the Dail record in his resignation speech as saying;"the Hierarchy has informed the Government that they must regard the mother and child scheme proposed by me as opposed to Catholic social teaching. This decision I, as a Catholic, immediately accepted without hesitation."
There is no doubt that Archbishop JC McQuaid was dead set against the scheme, and he was the boss.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I had always been of that view but I have to say a colleague of mine did her PhD thesis on the Mother and Child Scheme and she too expected to see that the main opposition was the RCC for the reasons you stated.

To her complete surprise - that was not what the evidence demonstrated. The evidence indicates the scheme was killed by the medical consultants and that the religious orders - while they had reservations about it- were not universally opposed and some in fact welcomed the initiative.

Indeed, your mate was raking over old ground. For instance

The Central Council of the [Medical] association decided to hold a referendum <...> "Do to agree to work a mother and child scheme which includes free treatment for those who could pay for themselves?" - 779 doctors, or 78 per cent of those replying, answered 'no'<...>

JH Whyte "Church and State in Modern Ireland" page 206 (1980 Second Edition, but originally published in 1971)

The issue, inevitably, involves being alert to where the Church is merely underwriting a situation desired by people who matter.

Meanwhile, down in the place that Reuters think is called Tooo-am

http://www.herald.ie/news/detectives-examine-mass-grave-where-800-babies-buried-30335759.html

Local man Martin Ward, who is involved in the committee to erect a plaque in memory of the dead, <...> said. “We don’t want them to be exhumed. We think they should be left to rest in peace and simply consecrate the ground. And we’ll invite the Archbishop to do that.”
<...>
Teresa Kelly, chairperson of the Children’s Home Graveyard Committee, said they hoped to raise €50,000 to cover the cost of a plaque to be erected at the site. “We’re looking to ensure that we have funds to do everything ourselves,” she said.



Anyone who wants to help fund the project can donate to the Children’s Home Graveyard at St Jarlath’s Credit Union

This is all it's really about; having a bit of a do, paid for by someone else. Everything else is froth.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

ezra_pound wrote: »

No. Buddhists would not unceremoniously dump childrens'remains in a disused septic tank. That you can be damn sure of.

True, they'd have found some use for them.

http://archive.org/stream/useofhumanskulls10lauf/useofhumanskulls10lauf_djvu.txt

Among the many customs of Tibet none has at- tracted wider attention than the use of human skulls and other bones both for practical purposes and in religious ceremonies.

They're only bones. They're not going to bite you.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Religious-orders-allowed-over-2000-Irish-children-to-be-used-in-medical-experiments.html

Historian Michael Dwyer who unearthed the documentations says that no records of how many may have died or suffered debilitating side-effects as a result are in existence....

Was the one-shot diptheria vaccine associated with widespread death and injury?

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

What is it going to take for Ireland to get rid of the influence of the RCC?

I think the starting point is coherent argumentation. Similar drug trials were undertaken in other countries, including one where there's a State religion that is formally hostile to Popery.

Brian Shanahan

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

<snip>

What moral vacuum do you live in that you have constantly to blame the victims?

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

What moral vacuum do you live in that you have constantly to blame the victims?

I'm not blaming anyone for anything. The problem is your expectation that such judgments are necessary.

Are you leaving out some quote of mine that you'd a particular problem with, or are you just communicating a general sense of unease? Only, I don't recall posting <snip> at any juncture.

recedite

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Indeed, your mate was raking over old ground. For instance

The Central Council of the [Medical] association decided to hold a referendum ... "Do to agree to work a mother and child scheme which includes free treatment for those who could pay for themselves?" - 779 doctors, or 78 per cent of those replying, answered 'no'<...>

The issue of whether to apply a means test, or at what level, was not the substantive issue.
The substantive issue was whether the State healthcare system should take direct responsiblility for unmarried mothers and their b'stard offspring, or whether they should be left in the hands of the nuns, where they would be forced to atone for their sins.
Mc Quaid settled the matter, by declaring that the latter was "catholic social teaching".

Bannasidhe

Throwing this out there in case anyone wants to help with research.

In 1938 the Tuam Home was 'overseen' by the Co. Galway Homes and Home Assistance Committee.

The members of that committee were:

Chair:

Martin O Regan.

Members:

Mr. E. Corbett.
Mr. J. McKeigue
Mr. P. Reynolds
Mr. J. Shiel.
Mr. M. Connelly.
Mr. M. Quinn.
Mr. M.O. Finnerty
Mr. P. Kyne

Because I am in Cork I am restricted to information available on-line such as census returns and some B,D & M records I have access to but these are far from complete.

If there is any one in Galway who would like to help by finding out any information at all ( even 'Christian' names would be wonderful) about these men it would really help to flesh out a picture of those good citizens who so were very concerned that the illegitimate children were a drain in the ratepayers and possible sources of moral contamination of 'ordinary' children.

The first place I would look if I were there would be the local newspapers. Available on microfiche in the reference sections of local libraries and free to access.

If anyone is interested - please PM me.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

recedite wrote: »

The issue of whether to apply a means test, or at what level, was not the substantive issue..

It was for the medical profession, as the consequence of a universal measure would be to end private practice, and the scope to charge people whatever they could afford.

The medical profession certainly didn't want their remuneration to be determined as a result of Galway County Health Committee deciding what ratepayers would be willing to part with.

Religion wasn't an irrelevance - it was quite important. But it's importance was in providing a mechanism that achieved a consensus on how to do things.

Bannasidhe

recedite wrote: »

I'd be interested to see that evidence. Certainly there was a feeling around at the time among the conservative elite that the proposed measure was a bit too "socialist".

Browne was not exactly a renegrade himself. He is on the Dail record in his resignation speech as saying;"the Hierarchy has informed the Government that they must regard the mother and child scheme proposed by me as opposed to Catholic social teaching. This decision I, as a Catholic, immediately accepted without hesitation."
There is no doubt that Archbishop JC McQuaid was dead set against the scheme, and he was the boss.

Tried to find if it was available on-line but a copy would be held in the Boole Library in UCC author Rosemary Brown.

I haven't read it myself, my information is from a conversation I had with Rose about 12 years ago when she was about to submit.