Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

jank

Turtwig wrote: »

Now, in this particular case I have faith the conclusion is mostly right. But I hate this path of conclusions from conjecture that social media and lazy ass journalism provide.

What conclusion though? How can we come to a conclusion when we don't even have basic facts about this septic tank or even the beginning of an investigation? Catherine Crosse was kinda dismayed on how this story has run given that she is a true historian and has to look at the facts objectively.

Bannasidhe

jank wrote: »

That is really not a valid comparison as a child in receipt of those allowances has a parent who generally provides and/or cares for them them by buying clothes/food/provides housing/heat/transportation to school etc. full time.

A more valid comparison would be finding out how much the HSE spends per child today that is in their own full time care.

http://www.dcya.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/Child_Welfare_Protection/childrenincare.htm

The above is a link to the department of children and youth affairs that gives a break down on numbers but can't see anything on costs. No doubt they are buried somewhere in some Oireachtas committee report.

Fret not. I am digging in that pile too.


What is emerging as I research more is an absolutely appalling attitude on the part of the local worthies on the Galway Health Board.

I have been wading through reports of their minutes where they freely express their low opinion of the women and illegitimate children and bemoan how they are a drain on the taxpayers. At this point I wouldn't be surprised if I come across the term 'sponger'.

It is now apparent that pressure was constantly being placed on the nuns to reduce costs - particularly regarding illegitimate children who are deemed less worthy than 'ordinary' children - yes that is the term that was used.

It would seem that the Health Board committee overseeing the Home were unable to reduce the agreed amount payable per child (for reasons I am still investigating) so spent a great deal of time exploring ways to get the illegitimate children fostered/adopted/into an industrial school/somewhere else any where at all and out of their budget.

There must be copies somewhere of the agreements reached between the Health Broads and the homes which specify how funding was allocated.

Does anyone remember the outcry last year over how some childcare facilities are treating the children in their care and the subsequent revelations that there is little to no implementation of the regulations and inspections are few and far between?

Well, we haven't changed much. What I am seeing is a Health Care Committee who essentially perceive unmarried mothers and their children as little better than scum and an unforgivable drain on the ratepayers. Their primary concern is reducing the burden on the ratepayer not the welfare of the 'inmates'.

They are content to leave the managing of the facilities to the religious orders while they count and bemoan the cost. And while the cost is great, the only solutions the Committee seem interested in are ones that reduce the number of children they have to pay for and that the 'inmates' are not allowed to contaminate 'ordinary' people by coming into contact with them.

The picture that is emerging from reading the contemporary reports is of State authorities who are penny pinching while at the same time liable to meet spiralling costs and are interested only in reducing that cost. They have no interest in the welfare of either women or children and are content to leave the religious orders free rein when it comes to the day to day management of the homes.

Within those homes attitudes were equally appalling with the women perceived as sinners who must atone and the illegitimate children as the 'wages of sin' who, if not strictly monitored and punished for every misdomeanour (beat the inherited bad out of them), will inevitably grow up to become a criminal underclass.

It is an attitude I am familiar with from my investigations into Victorian attitudes and the treatment of women and children in London/Jersey in the 19th century but I do have to say that although in those there was a religious ethos at play, it was not as codified or as absolute as the one in place in Ireland and within Victorian Society there were 'do-gooders' who were vocal in their public condemnation of the homes/workhouses - something I am not finding in Ireland.

What I am finding in Ireland are conditions in the 20th century that more and more are making me think 'Romanian orphanages' but with a judgemental, harsh and unforgiving religious ideology rather than a totalitarian political ideology as the guiding principle.

The religious orders are the front line but the State authorities enable them by not overseeing conditions and being concerned only with cost and protecting respectable society from contamination.

lazygal

Sterling work Bann.

Obliq

Mind if I share? Some more people need this kind of education elsewhere....

shruikan2553

Well now we know not all of the bodies woukd be anywhere near the site due to being used for medical reasons. So looks like the apologists are right. The grave isnt that bad. Selling the bodies helped to reduce it.

Bannasidhe

Obliq wrote: »

Mind if I share? Some more people need this kind of education elsewhere....

Ya asking me?

If so - work away girl.

People have been wondering how this could happen. Because Irish society on the whole shared the same attitude and generally those who disagreed got the hell out of Dodge.

Just heard Marian Finucane talking about when, in the aftermath of Anne Lovett's death in 1984, she interviewed a pregnant 15 year who, with the support of her mother, intended to keep her child . Marian was inundated with complaints that she did not chastise the girl for her 'sins'.

My 'illegitimate' son was born in 1984. Not only was I an unmarried mother - I was an out lesbian. An unmarried mother and an out lesbian who had the courage/cowardice to have moved to London where, while undoubtedly there were people who disapproved, I never encountered them. Officialdom didn't give a flying as to my marital status and if anyone I met in a private capacity had a problem they kept it to themselves.

What changed in Ireland in the intervening years? The Single Mother's Allowance.

It allowed women to care for their children themselves - and if the figures that are emerging from the minutes of the Health Board Committees are any indication, at far less financial cost to the rate/taxpayer.

Want to know how situations like Mother and Child homes can happen? Open a thread on single mothers in AH and watch the call for food vouchers, the cries of condemnation, the judgement bellow out at you - those who scream their scorn are of pretty much the same mindset as those who not only did nothing about the Homes - they approved of their existence.

They were the majority in a country where Church and State had a symbiotic relationship - that is how it was allowed to happen.

ryan101

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It would seem that the Health Board committee overseeing the Home were unable to reduce the agreed amount payable per child (for reasons I am still investigating) so spent a great deal of time exploring ways to get the illegitimate children fostered/adopted/into an industrial school/somewhere else any where at all and out of their budget.

There must be copies somewhere of the agreements reached between the Health Broads and the homes which specify how funding was allocated.

Does anyone remember the outcry last year over how some childcare facilities are treating the children in their care and the subsequent revelations that there is little to no implementation of the regulations and inspections are few and far between?

Well, we haven't changed much. What I am seeing is a Health Care Committee who essentially perceive unmarried mothers and their children as little better than scum and an unforgivable drain on the ratepayers. Their primary concern is reducing the burden on the ratepayer not the welfare of the 'inmates'.

The picture that is emerging from reading the contemporary reports is of State authorities who are penny pinching while at the same time liable to meet spiralling costs and are interested only in reducing that cost. They have no interest in the welfare of either women or children and are content to leave the religious orders free rein when it comes to the day to day management of the homes.

Within those homes attitudes were equally appalling with the women perceived as sinners who must atone and the illegitimate children as the 'wages of sin' who, if not strictly monitored and punished for every misdomeanour (beat the inherited bad out of them), will inevitably grow up to become a criminal underclass.

These are key points, well done on doing a better job than any of the current journalism and reporting, and it ties in exactly with this 2008 article :

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/boys-town-founder-fr-flanagan-warned-irish-church-about-abuse-46390952-237644371.html

"Father Edward Flanagan, founder of “Boys Town” made famous by the Spencer Tracy movie, was a lone voice in condemning Ireland’s industrial schools back in the 1940s –and he was viciously castigated by church and government for doing so."

Fr. Flanagan decided to return to the land of his birth in 1946 to visit his family, and also to visit the “so-called training schools" run by the Christian Brothers to see if they were "a success or failure.”

The success of the film "Boys Town," meant Fr. Flanagan was treated like a celebrity on his arrival. His visit was noted by the The Irish Independent, which said that Fr. Flanagan had succeeded “against overwhelming odds,” spurred on by the “simple slogan that 'There is no such thing as a bad boy.'”

But Fr. Flanagan was unhappy with what he found in Ireland. He was dismayed at the state of Ireland's reform schools and blasted them as “a scandal, un-Christlike, and wrong.” And he said the Christian Brothers, founded by Edmund Rice, had lost its way.

Speaking to a large audience at a public lecture in Cork’s Savoy Cinema he said, "You are the people who permit your children and the children of your communities to go into these institutions of punishment. You can do something about it." He called Ireland’s penal institutions "a disgrace to the nation," and later said "I do not believe that a child can be reformed by lock and key and bars, or that fear can ever develop a child’s character."

However, his words fell on stony ground. He wasn't simply ignored. He was taken to pieces by the Irish establishment. The then-Minister for Justice Gerald Boland said in the Dáil that he was “not disposed to take any notice of what Monsignor Flanagan said while he was in this country, because his statements were so exaggerated that I did not think people would attach any importance to them.”

When he arrived back in America Fr. Flanagan said: "What you need over there is to have someone shake you loose from your smugness and satisfaction and set an example by punishing those who are guilty of cruelty, ignorance and neglect of their duties in high places . . . I wonder what God's judgment will be with reference to those who hold the deposit of faith and who fail in their God-given stewardship of little children."

pH

Look, I'm all for bashing on the Catholic church, I hates them I really do, but it does look like this is a hugely sensationalized story.

What would have the normal practice have been in Ireland in the 20s/30s/40s for infants that died during or shortly after a home delivery in rural Ireland, and are these deaths really an exception to that norm?

Akrasia

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Fret not. I am digging in that pile too.

Hi Bannasidhe, From your investigations into the health boards, do you know what kind of people were board members? I have a feeling that there would have been significant representation for the religious orders on these boards considering the role they played in running the hospitals (and the rest of irish civic society)

Mark Hamill

So just to catch up with this thread, looking over the points about the media messing the story up, would the following be an accurate description of the facts:

1) The death-rate in the home in Tuam was twice the national average (or even slightly higher), despite the significant funding the home would have received.
2) The deaths of 797 children were recorded over ~ 40 year period, however only one had a proper burial recorded.
3) In the 70's, a number of the bodies were seen in a septic tank (maybe 20, but not much more).
4) The rest of the bodies are unaccounted for.

It seems that the main thing, maybe the only thing, the media got wrong was the location of the bodies. That they weren't all dumped in the one location is an important correction to make, and what ultimately happened to their bodies is an important issue. But it doesn't change the fact the 796 kids all died, at twice the national rate, in horrible conditions.

Mark Hamill

jank wrote: »

My experience was thankfully positive, that is my truth. I also acknowledge people have had terrible times in these places and that is of course the truth as well. Only when we get all the stories out, good or bad will we get the true picture of the actual truth.

On the one hand, I do agree that getting the full details about how these places actually were is very important.
On the other hand, given the bad stories that we know, both the quantity and the nature, do the neutral stories matter (beyond statistically)? Is there any number of neutral stories we could find out about that should make us change our view of these homes?

ryan101

Mark Hamill wrote: »

So just to catch up with this thread, looking over the points about the media messing the story up, would the following be an accurate description of the facts:

1) The death-rate in the home in Tuam was twice the national average (or even slightly higher), despite the significant funding the home would have received.
2) The deaths of 797 children were recorded over ~ 40 year period, however only one had a proper burial recorded.
3) In the 70's, a number of the bodies were seen in a septic tank (maybe 20, but not much more).
4) The rest of the bodies are unaccounted for.

It seems that the main thing, maybe the only thing, the media got wrong was the location of the bodies. That they weren't all dumped in the one location is an important correction to make, and what ultimately happened to their bodies is an important issue. But it doesn't change the fact the 796 kids all died, at twice the national rate, in horrible conditions.

And not just in Tuam, but all over Ireland.

I'd like to see proper memorials, with names, erected at all these sites.

Spring Onion

If the bodies are not all in the septic tank, surely the nuns know where they put them? There has to be a mass unmarked grave somewhere or maybe they burned the bodies. Do we have to drag it out of them?

Bellatori

Spring Onion wrote: »

If the bodies are not all in the septic tank, surely the nuns know where they put them? There has to be a mass unmarked grave somewhere or maybe they burned the bodies. Do we have to drag it out of them?

By past experience... yes :mad:

ryan101

Spring Onion wrote: »

If the bodies are not all in the septic tank, surely the nuns know where they put them? There has to be a mass unmarked grave somewhere or maybe they burned the bodies. Do we have to drag it out of them?

I doubt any of the staff from the 30's/40's are alive today.
The home was funded by Galway County Council (before health boards were set up Councils also had the responsibility for all health services) and opened at their request. According to press reports, all records from the home were handed over to Galway County Council when the home closed in 1961. The HSE have them now. The authorities should also request the order to hand over any other records they have, but this does not mean the authorities should escape getting off the hook as well.

The area that the old septic tank was located seems to be the burial grounds. I presume they are most likely to be buried in that vicinity. That's the best place to start. Archaeological excavations would confirm. It's been well known locally as such for years, Hence the memorials, gates, walls etc. there. The locals witnessed burials from the home there over the years. There are unmarked graves going back to the famine times and workhouse there as well. They should be all marked and named memorials erected where possible, as with all such burial grounds around the country. There's a completely unmarked burial ground next to our local hospital that was used up until the 70's for still born and miscarried children to be buried there. I've a brother buried in that area somewhere, but the health board kept no records of where abouts on the plot he might be buried. Another disgrace.

pH

Mark Hamill wrote: »

But it doesn't change the fact the 796 kids all died, at twice the national rate, in horrible conditions.

So if we're quoting this "twice the national rate" fact then we must have to hand the mortality rate in the home and the mortality rate for Ireland as a whole. Also given this spans a longish period of time, during which healthcare and infant survival substantially increased we need to check this national rate carefully to make sure we're not just using (say) the 1970 rate and comparing this to an average rate for the home between 1920 & 1960. Also given as it seems children lived on in this home for a while after birth we need a national figure for survival to perhaps one or two years old after birth.

I'm interested where you saw these figures and if you were happy with their veracity?

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Akrasia wrote: »

Hi Bannasidhe, From your investigations into the health boards, do you know what kind of people were board members? I have a feeling that there would have been significant representation for the religious orders on these boards considering the role they played in running the hospitals (and the rest of irish civic society)

Health Boards weren't created until 1970. Before that, the health authorities were the county councils.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I suggest you immediately write a strongly worded letter to every single media outlet which engaged in sensationalism and point out the error of their ways.

Ah, yeah, factual accuracy is my sole responsibility.

jank wrote: »

This was obvious to anyone who actually read the details of the story.

Nowhere is it verified that 800 babies were/are dumped in the septic tank.

Indeed, this was just one of those "lets erect a memorial to some load of bollocks and get someone else to pay for it" kind of campaigns that got out of hand. I'd say the locals sort of know that, if Reuters can't pronounce the name of the place, the only bit of international name recognition they'll get now is "wasn't that where they found all those corpses".

Plus, in a very Irish way, you'll now find that to be an upstanding Irish atheist you'll have to accept that 800 babies were put in a septic tank, regardless of whether it's true or not. Which means this whole issue falls neatly within Harry Frankfurt's definition of Bullshiít. As he says, "the bullshiiter is faking things, but that does not necessarily mean he gets them wrong."

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Open a thread on single mothers in AH and watch the call for food vouchers, the cries of condemnation, the judgement bellow out at you - those who scream their scorn are of pretty much the same mindset as those who not only did nothing about the Homes - they approved of their existence.

We need to do more than replace one set of biases for another. Yes, lots of working women resent women who get mickey money. Maybe they're right.

What we want, surely, is a situation where someone can frankly state their feelings on the matter. A valid view, if asked what a unmarried mother should do, is "nothing to do with me". It's not the only view. But it is a valid view.

The Angels and Demons view of the world is the one we've got to change. And some way of looking at the issue that isn't about sin and recrimination. Deep down, Galway County Health Committee probably agreed that welfare mothers made better lovers.

Waitsian

'The Black and White Witches'
© By Joe Canning 2014. All Rights Reserved.

To me they seemed to have no feet and floated on the floor,
Cold hands appeared from those dark robes and dragged me
through that door.
In voices condescending, they spoke to me like dirt,
and when they slammed that cursed door they hid me from my world.
In silence I did follow them, afraid to speak one word,
statues left and statues right did watch me climb those stairs.
They pushed me to a concrete room where stood a single chair,
'twas there I heard those snipping scissors, butchering my hair.
Ripped did they my simple dress, did tear it from my back,
Carbolic soap then burned my scalp and seared my tearful eyes.
Sinner! Whore! Delilah!, were the words they screamed at me,
without a care for growing life, they hauled me to my feet.
I screamed out for my father, mother, sister, brothers too,
my pleading cries resounded from those walls all painted blue.
Those bitches tugged and pulled me, did hurt me and insult me,
as I feared about my little life inside.
And then cold stairs I climbed again, they led to a room of pain,
a room with others suffering, just as I.
A room where lassies rocked on beds, on more blue walls some
banged their heads,
a girl called Eileen, screamed, "I want my baby"!
In time I came to settle in, each day they preached how much we'd sinned,
then came the day I felt that grasping pain.
All innocent and seventeen, I know those bitches loved my pain,
Convinced I'd brought the wrath of God upon me.
How soon I knew how Eileen felt, those devils grabbed my child and left,
and for a lifetime left my heart in wondering.
In black and white and witches clothes, our innocents those witches stole,
The very flesh and blood of grieving women...
To foreigners did children sell, made mothers go through lives of hell,
Whilst rattling on their cherished Rosary beads.

Bannasidhe

Akrasia wrote: »

Hi Bannasidhe, From your investigations into the health boards, do you know what kind of people were board members? I have a feeling that there would have been significant representation for the religious orders on these boards considering the role they played in running the hospitals (and the rest of irish civic society)

So far I have encountered only 'Mr' as given titles of Health Board committee members in Galway discussing the Tuam home. If there were clergy they would usually be designated as such e.g. Fr/Msgr/Sr etc. - very picky about their titles.

Not to say there were no clergy members, just that I have yet to encounter anyone designated as such in the reports.

I do keep encountering a Mr Keigue and if there is a hell I hope he is there being tortured for eternity. When I get time I will be having a look see at the census returns for Mr Keigue.

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

.Ah, yeah, factual accuracy is my sole responsibility.

Sure we all have our own cross to bare.

Deep down, Galway County Health Committee probably agreed that welfare mothers made better lovers.

Really? Was there any need for that?

Corkfeen

Apparently Irish Times misrepresented Catherine Corless,her daughter is currently tweeting about it. Article is seeming pretty dodgy and has somewhat of an agenda.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AdrienneJoCo

ryan101

Corkfeen wrote: »

Apparently Irish Times misrepresented Catherine Corless,her daughter is currently tweeting about it. Article is seeming pretty dodgy and has somewhat of an agenda.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AdrienneJoCo

Seems a lot of the media, including the Irish times have questions to answer

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393

On St Patrick’s Day this year Barry Sweeney was drinking in Brownes bar, on the Square in Tuam. He fell into conversation with someone who was familiar with Corless’s research, and who repeated the story of boys finding bones. “I told her that I was one of those boys,” Sweeney tells The Irish Times in his home, on the outskirts of Tuam. “I got a phonecall from Catherine a couple of weeks later.”
Sweeney was 10 in 1975, and the friend he was with on that day, Frannie Hopkins, was 12. They dropped down from the two-and-a-half-metre boundary wall as usual, into the part of the former grounds that Corless and local people believe is the unofficial burial place for those who died in the home. “We used to be in there playing regular. There was always this slab of concrete there,” he says.
In his kitchen, Sweeney demonstrates the size of this concrete flag as he recalls it: it’s an area a little bigger than his coffee table, about 120cm long and 60cm wide. He says he does not recall seeing any other similar flags in their many visits to the area.
Between them the boys levered up the slab. “There were skeletons thrown in there. They were all this way and that way. They weren’t wrapped in anything, and there were no coffins,” he says. “But there was no way there were 800 skeletons down that hole. Nothing like that number. I don’t know where the papers got that.” How many skeletons does he believe there were? “About 20.”

‘I never used that word ‘dumped’,” Catherine Corless, a local historian in Co Galway, tells The Irish Times. “I never said to anyone that 800 bodies were dumped in a septic tank. That did not come from me at any point. They are not my words.”

The story that emerged from her work was reported this week in dramatic headlines around the world.
“Tell us the truth about the children dumped in Galway’s mass graves” – The Guardian.
The Sean Ross Abbey in Roscrea, which was a home from 1930 to 1970. Photograph: Niall Carson/PA WireThis time, the issue of mother and baby homes must be addressed
“Bodies of 800 babies, long-dead, found in septic tank at former Irish home for unwed mothers” – The Washington Post.
“Nearly 800 dead babies found in septic tank in Ireland” – Al Jazeera.
“800 skeletons of babies found inside tank at former Irish home for unwed mothers” – New York Daily News.
“Almost 800 ‘forgotten’ Irish children dumped in septic tank mass grave at Catholic home” – ABC News, Australia.

Brian Shanahan

vibe666 wrote: »

Can't believe the neck on this lot! :eek: http://www.harvestingthefruit.com/the-stench-of-an-irish-rat/

Some things make me wish that the bad end to Able Archer actually happened (we were a Russian Colonel's disbelief of one set of malfunctioning circuitry away from nuclear armageddon if some reports are correct).

This is one of them. Whoever wrote that article, and the commenters btl are sick fcuks, worthy of employment by Julius Streicher or Joseph Goebbels.

Corkfeen

ryan101 wrote: »

Seems a lot of the media, including the Irish times have questions to answer

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393

You're literally linking to the article that she has issues with. They misrepresent her throughout it. I think most were perfectly aware that she wasn't saying that there was precisely 796 bodies in a tank,it's really going pedantry if this is the big issue you get from the story. However there are still 796 bodies with whereabouts unknowns.

Plenty of questions remain over a potential neglect of children across homes in the country. I think Graham Linehan summed up the article pretty well: 'We need a word for that practice of dismissing the substance of a story by supposedly debunking the most outrageous aspect of that story.'

She doesn't very upset by how the story has become a mainstream issue in this video interview that she did for the very same article btw. She does say that regardless of how many bodies. In fact it was one of the most important lines that never got quoted in the article. So yeah,pretty suspect and shoddy journalism.

"I think it's quite possible going from the boys' explanation that it was full to the brim of bones. But still how children at the time, does it matter if it's 500, 600? If there isn't a full 796? 10 children in a septic tank? 20? Isn't that horrific? Is it the numbers that makes it horrific?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/video/news-video?vid=1.1822921

One of the biggest issues in my opinion is the fact the Irish media virtually ignored it for one week. Then because it became a big issue in international media,they actually bothered with the story. Philip Boucher Hayes is one of the few exceptions. Note the lack of sensational story telling.

http://philipboucher-hayes.com/2014/06/04/tuam-babies-the-evidence/

Bellatori

Corkfeen wrote: »

...Philip Boucher Hayes is one of the few exceptions. Note the lack of sensational story telling.

http://philipboucher-hayes.com/2014/06/04/tuam-babies-the-evidence/

You are right. It is written in a very matter of fact and non-sensationalist manner. Good journalism IMHO.

So the Gardaí are misinformed on this or have decided to find a reason not to investigate any closer

Police seem to be the same everywhere. This has potentially difficult and political ramifications so 'best to let it lie'. The list of London Met cases for which this has been a mantra is quite extensive and lets not even go there for NI. They (the Gardaí) may not, however be that lucky, as it does seem to have some International momentum. This may well be because it is fashionable to pick on the RCC at the moment but, be that as it may, there will be a prurient interest in this. It is not going to quietly lie down in the near future at least.

Corkfeen

Bellatori wrote: »

You are right. It is written in a very matter of fact and non-sensationalist manner. Good journalism IMHO.



Police seem to be the same everywhere. This has potentially difficult and political ramifications so 'best to let it lie'. The list of London Met cases for which this has been a mantra is quite extensive and lets not even go there for NI. They (the Gardaí) may not, however be that lucky, as it does seem to have some International momentum. This may well be because it is fashionable to pick on the RCC at the moment but, be that as it may, there will be a prurient interest in this. It is not going to quietly lie down in the near future at least.

That's one of his earlier one, he's done a fair bit on it over the week.

Mark Hamill

pH wrote: »

So if we're quoting this "twice the national rate" fact then we must have to hand the mortality rate in the home and the mortality rate for Ireland as a whole. Also given this spans a longish period of time, during which healthcare and infant survival substantially increased we need to check this national rate carefully to make sure we're not just using (say) the 1970 rate and comparing this to an average rate for the home between 1920 & 1960. Also given as it seems children lived on in this home for a while after birth we need a national figure for survival to perhaps one or two years old after birth.

I'm interested where you saw these figures and if you were happy with their veracity?

Most papers quote the "twice the national rate" figure, but I decided to go digging. Skimming back through the thread, and doing some quick searches, the best I could get on short notice was the following:
1) Infant mortality rate from 1925 to 1940 was ~7%, and then dropped to ~3% by 1960 (Source: "From Angela’s ashes to the Celtic tiger: Early life conditions and adult health in Ireland", published by Liam Delany in the Journal of Health Economics):

2) Excerpts from "Mother and Child" by Dr. Lindsey Earner-Byrne give the infant death rate in the Tuam home as 30% in 1933, 15% in 1939 and 35% in 1943


I realise that the above data only discusses infant mortality and is only comparable over a short period of time, but there would want to be some incredibly low mortality rate for young children at the home in Tuam in order to bring the overall death rate to less than twice the national rate..

Bannasidhe

The proper authorities are all over now. Two detectives spent 15 minutes having a look round today...

http://www.herald.ie/news/detectives-examine-mass-grave-where-800-babies-buried-30335759.html

It also transpires that no record of the burial place of 9 women can be found. Three of who were the mothers of children on the list Corless complied.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Really? Was there any need for that?

Oh, absolutely. This boring, stifling, prissy discussion needs ridicule if its to have any hope of connecting to something life affirming.

I was going to post "Too Much Too Young", but I thought the bit about "Ain't he cool, no he ain't. He's just another burden on the Welfare State" might be a bit inflammatory. "Welfare Mothers" is just beautifully ambiguous.

Now, as sometimes happens, I find myself thinking of that Hunter S Thompson line "That last outburst was probably unnecessary, but what the hell? Let them drink Drano if they can’t take a joke. I’m tired of wallowing around in this goddamn thing."

So here's some more background music to fabricate outrage by.

Obliq

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Oh, absolutely. This boring, stifling, prissy discussion needs ridicule if its to have any hope of connecting to something life affirming.

I was going to post "Too Much Too Young", but I thought the bit about "Ain't he cool, no he ain't. He's just another burden on the Welfare State" might be a bit inflammatory. "Welfare Mothers" is just beautifully ambiguous.

Now, as sometimes happens, I find myself thinking of that Hunter S Thompson line "That last outburst was probably unnecessary, but what the hell? Let them drink Drano if they can’t take a joke. I’m tired of wallowing around in this goddamn thing."

Goodness, you're so predictable. You spend days giving out about hyperbole and exaggeration, and then just can't contain yourself eh? Saturday night is a reasonable Irish excuse of course.