Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

Obliq

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My OH's 45 years old camp as knickers never ever had a girlfriend house full of homoerotic art brother still isn't out to their parents...
OH was pushed out over 20 years ago via an anonymous phone call to her mother.

Gosh. Poor fella! That sounds like a strong case of internalised shame if your OH's ma is fine with your OH being lesbian? So closeted, he's in bleedin' Narnia (to borrow a phrase from same friend as before)

Obliq

SpaceTime wrote: »

I don't underestimate it. However, I think we need to get the message out as a society to them that they have nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about.

It would be a massive weight off a lot of these women's shoulders to know that if they do tell their stories that society is going to be accepting of them and quite sympathetic to their plight.

That's actually one area where the Churches (I'd include all of them in this) continue to do a lot of damage by continuing the 'shame' factor by making such a big deal about sex outside marriage and pregnancy outside marriage and quite a few other issues too e.g. the whole area of being still subtly (and sometimes not subtly) discriminatory towards LGBT people.

We *STILL* have a situation where a teacher for example could face being fired for any of those issues for living a life 'contrary to the ethos' of a school.
That's an absolutely intolerable situation in a modern democracy that protects absolutely everyone else against that kind of discrimination!

This.

Is why we need the investigation so much. Keep it up Bann! And all others doing similar work in Ireland.....

old hippy

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Catherine Corless' interview on Saturday's Irish Times (with Rosita Boland) was enlightening. Certainly more so than the hyperbolic media "coverage" up to then (and in some case, since then).

She was adament that she never described anyone as having been "dumped" and adament that there were 800 deaths on the Tuam site BUT they were categorically not contained within the concrete tank on site. There were also some details regarding the dates surrounding this infrastructure.

This may have already been covered here, but it does appear that there was a whole lot of jumping the gun on many fronts, including by people on here, in the absence of any real information or insight.

The sorry truth now is that very real issues regarding un-married mothers in Irish society, forced or coerced adoptions, poor living and medical conditions, and the churches treatement of unbaptised babies (a related issue) will be lost somewhat because of the hyperbole, discovered to be largely unfounded regarding, "800 babies in a septic tank."

Do you think the discovery should be played down, so?

jazz101

Am I right in saying there was a song written in tribute to the Tuam Babies almost a day after the story broke? Anyone have a link to it?

iguana

I'm working with campaigners with Avaaz at the moment who are planning to do a larger mailing of the petition in order to reach more people and will then try to present it to Fitzgerald ahead of Wednesday's Dail debate.

Obliq

I Heart Internet wrote: »

The sorry truth now is that very real issues regarding un-married mothers in Irish society, forced or coerced adoptions, poor living and medical conditions, and the churches treatement of unbaptised babies (a related issue) will be lost somewhat because of the hyperbole, discovered to be largely unfounded regarding, "800 babies in a septic tank."

I disagree completely. One only needs to ask the question "Why", even if there weren't actually 800 babies in a septic tank. You appear not to be reading the searching and in depth discussions as to WHY that has been going on here and in the AH thread.

Those very real issues you speak of are being examined and brought to light in a way that hasn't happened before here. I'm making it my business to make sure this isn't put back in the closet, and so are many others. Don't knock it till you've tried it.

I Heart Internet

old hippy wrote: »

Do you think the discovery should be played down, so?

The bit you've highlighted isn't what has been "discovered". Catherine Corless has identified certain pieces of evidence. As she tried to make very clear in her IT interview on Saturday - she never said "dumped" and she never, ever claimed 800 infants were dumped in a septic tank - says it's quite impossible.

The evidence that Catherine Corless has uncovered should not be played down. It should be magnified and made more widely available. She should be applauded the length and breadth of this country for her work and determination to get to the bottom of activities on this site.

He work shouldn't be misused or misinterpreted though.

The "800 babies in a septic tank" story, which was hailed as close to fact in some parts (including here) some days ago is being debunked and it would be a grave shame if that meant a wider, more indepth investigation would suffer from this myth being debunked.

Obliq

iguana wrote: »

I'm working with campaigners with Avaaz at the moment who are planning to do a larger mailing of the petition in order to reach more people and will then try to present it to Fitzgerald ahead of Wednesday's Dail debate.

Am I right in thinking you started the petition?! You're fab. :cool:

Bannasidhe

bumper234 wrote: »

I got this reply from Clare Daly



And i have replied

Once again it seems like Clare Daly is the one we can trust to stand up in the Dáil and demand answers.

Have decided that I will supply her with copies of all info we uncover - once I have put it into a coherent format backed up by sources and all that historiography jazz - let's give Clare the ammo she needs folks.

Names.
Dates.
Published statements.
Official reports.

All in a format she can use effectively.

It's time....

One thing I would love to find out is the family connections of the nuns involved - who were their 'people'? What were their connections to local big wigs/civil authorities?

It is perfectly possible - indeed likely - that the Mother Superiors, for example, were from the same background as the local councillors/TDs etc etc.

Sadly, I know that even if we had access to their records it would be a mammoth task trying to establish things like Mother Superior was the real life sister/cousin of Parish Priest and Teachta Dala for the region.

I need to talk someone into doing a PhD on 'Mother and Child Homes - Collusion between Church and State'.....

Bannasidhe

Obliq wrote: »

Am I right in thinking you started the petition?! You're fab. :cool:

She did and she is.

SpaceTime

I Heart Internet wrote: »

The bit you've highlighted isn't what has been "discovered". Catherine Corless has identified certain pieces of evidence. As she tried to make very clear in her IT interview on Saturday - she never said "dumped" and she never, ever claimed 800 infants were dumped in a septic tank - says it's quite impossible.

The evidence that Catherine Corless has uncovered should not be played down. It should be magnified and made more widely available. She should be applauded the length and breadth of this country for her work and determination to get to the bottom of activities on this site.

He work shouldn't be misused or misinterpreted though.

The "800 babies in a septic tank" story, which was hailed as close to fact in some parts (including here) some days ago is being debunked and it would be a grave shame if that meant a wider, more indepth investigation would suffer from this myth being debunked.

1 baby in a septic tank is a major scandal.

old hippy

I Heart Internet wrote: »

The bit you've highlighted isn't what has been "discovered". Catherine Corless has identified certain pieces of evidence. As she tried to make very clear in her IT interview on Saturday - she never said "dumped" and she never, ever claimed 800 infants were dumped in a septic tank - says it's quite impossible.

The evidence that Catherine Corless has uncovered should not be played down. It should be magnified and made more widely available. She should be applauded the length and breadth of this country for her work and determination to get to the bottom of activities on this site.

He work shouldn't be misused or misinterpreted though.

The "800 babies in a septic tank" story, which was hailed as close to fact in some parts (including here) some days ago is being debunked and it would be a grave shame if that meant a wider, more indepth investigation would suffer from this myth being debunked.

So, whenever we are confronted with breaking news of hundreds of dead children being found like this we should proceed with caution, tip toe round to the RCC and gently ask if they have the time to clarify?

Bannasidhe

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Catherine Corless' interview on Saturday's Irish Times (with Rosita Boland) was enlightening. Certainly more so than the hyperbolic media "coverage" up to then (and in some case, since then).

She was adament that she never described anyone as having been "dumped" and adament that there were 800 deaths on the Tuam site BUT they were categorically not contained within the concrete tank on site. There were also some details regarding the dates surrounding this infrastructure.

This may have already been covered here, but it does appear that there was a whole lot of jumping the gun on many fronts, including by people on here, in the absence of any real information or insight.

The sorry truth now is that very real issues regarding un-married mothers in Irish society, forced or coerced adoptions, poor living and medical conditions, and the churches treatement of unbaptised babies (a related issue) will be lost somewhat because of the hyperbole, discovered to be largely unfounded regarding, "800 babies in a septic tank."

Why don't you read what Corless actually said and not what Boland chose to report she said before you come in here making claims?

Full transcript of Corless' interview with Boland here: http://www.rabble.ie/2014/06/07/late-and-off-the-point/

Obliq

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I need to talk someone into doing a PhD on 'Mother and Child Homes - Collusion between Church and State'.....

Well you probably already have a PhD, but.....you are the one collating all this
Wouldn't you like another?!

Bannasidhe

Obliq wrote: »

Gosh. Poor fella! That sounds like a strong case of internalised shame if your OH's ma is fine with your OH being lesbian? So closeted, he's in bleedin' Narnia (to borrow a phrase from same friend as before)

I wouldn't go so far as to say she was 'fine' - it's just I am so disgustingly respectable (on paper anyway) that she finds it hard to object....

I Heart Internet

Obliq wrote: »

.........even if there weren't actually 800 babies in a septic tank.......

Catherine Corless says there definetly isn't.

You may be right in the bigger picture, maybe the shock value was required to get a conversation started. But my fear would be that when the shock is removed (by the lack of 800 bodies in a septic tank), people will say, "ah, sure that's grand so" and forget about the real issues of these homes.

Did the Daily Mail on Sunday have anything regarding their much publicised private radar scan of the site?? Anything new?

robindch

Obliq wrote: »

Am I right in thinking you started the petition?!

A team effort

Bannasidhe

Obliq wrote: »

Well you probably already have a PhD, but.....you are the one collating all this
Wouldn't you like another?!

No.

Obliq

I Heart Internet wrote: »

You may be right in the bigger picture, maybe the shock value was required to get a conversation started. But my fear would be that when the shock is removed (by the lack of 800 bodies in a septic tank), people will say, "ah, sure that's grand so" and forget about the real issues of these homes.

Perhaps you should stop focussing on the septic tank yourself so, and actually do something about the real issues of these homes and the wider society by talking about that. Like we are.

I Heart Internet

old hippy wrote: »

So, whenever we are confronted with breaking news of hundreds of dead children being found like this we should proceed with caution

Yes. Of course. Why would you proceed on such an important topic with anything other than caution??

I Heart Internet

Obliq wrote: »

Perhaps you should stop focussing on the septic tank yourself so, and actually do something about the real issues of these homes and the wider society by talking about that. Like we are.

I was keen to have a full investigation much earlier in this thread (still am btw) but the bulk of the conversation just revolved around the "fact" that 800 bodies were contained in a septic tank on the Tuam site. People were happy to go with the headlines and take them as fact. I wasn't, and was accused of trying to deny the story.

Interesting how nobody here wants to admit that we were all badly wrong about the 800 babies in a septic tank thing.....proceed with caution, like I say.

Obliq

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yes. Of course. Why would you proceed on such an important topic with anything other than caution??

Because sometimes if you hold yourself back, you won't do ANYTHING. Less caution, more action is the only way forward. Facts can be checked, and if they're presented wrongly, then corrected.

Bannasidhe

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Catherine Corless says there definetly isn't.

You may be right in the bigger picture, maybe the shock value was required to get a conversation started. But my fear would be that when the shock is removed (by the lack of 800 bodies in a septic tank), people will say, "ah, sure that's grand so" and forget about the real issues of these homes.

Did the Daily Mail on Sunday have anything regarding their much publicised private radar scan of the site?? Anything new?

Over. My. Dead. Body. :mad:

And yes - anomalies requiring further investigation via excavation were found.

You seem to be able to 'find' articles like Boland's - which by the way Corless' daughter had been tweeting about and putting her mother's side across for days - but you can't 'find' out about the results of the ground mapping which is but a google search away (and I know I was discussing it in the AH thread yesterday if not in this one)...

Why is that?

I Heart Internet

Obliq wrote: »

Because sometimes if you hold yourself back, you won't do ANYTHING. Less caution, more action is the only way forward. Facts can be checked, and if they're presented wrongly, then corrected.

I prefer to get my facts right in the first place. ESPECIALLY when Catherine Corless was alive and kicking and only too happy to properly explain her research findings to any reporter who was bothered to ask.

I Heart Internet

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Over. My. Dead. Body. :mad:

And yes - anomalies requiring further investigation via excavation were found.

You seem to be able to 'find' articles like Boland's - which by the way Corless' daughter had been tweeting about and putting her mother's side across for days - but you can't 'find' out about the results of the ground mapping which is but a google search away (and I know I was discussing it in the AH thread yesterday if not in this one)...

Why is that?

I don't buy the daily mail and was hoping someone would give me a brief synopsis of the findings, for starters. I bought the Irish Times (so read Boland's article).

I'll use the google machine so.

same ol sh1te

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I don't buy the daily mail and was hoping someone would give me a brief synopsis of the findings, for starters. I bought the Irish Times (so read Boland's article).

I'll use the google machine so.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2651766/We-need-dig-babies-graves-Ground-Penetrating-Radar-reveals-lies-beneath-Tuam-Home-site.html

Zubeneschamali

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Catherine Corless says there definetly isn't.

Unfortunately for the Irish Times, they published video of that interview, and when asked if all 796 babies are in the septic tank (at 2:30), Corless says "I think it's quite possible".

Boland writes: In her article she concludes that many of the children were buried in an unofficial graveyard at the rear of the former home. This small grassy space has been attended for decades by local people, who have planted roses and other flowers there, and put up a grotto in one corner.

Sounds lovely doesn't it? But as I showed upthread, what's actually under that small grassy space is the septic tank we are all talking about.

Cabaal

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/06/09/meanwhile-outside-bessborough/

Teddies and flowers placed outside the former Bessborough mother and baby home in Cork at a memorial service yesterday afternoon held by the Bessborough Mother and Baby Support Group.

And this morning:

Alan writes:

“Not 24 HOURS after the gathering at Bessboro, all the lovely memorial has been ripped away…

Speaking to Red FM News, Helen Murphy [who was born in Bessborough mother and baby home in 1962] said that the only way of knowing how many babies are buried in Bessborough is by digging up the site.

“The nuns said and there was a statement from the Sacred Heart Sisters at the weekend, and they said they didn’t know whether the babies were buried in a coffins or shrouds,”

“They were the people running the home.

“How are we going to know how many babies are buried there unless they actually go in and see how many bodies [there are]?”

Bannasidhe

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I prefer to get my facts right in the first place. ESPECIALLY when Catherine Corless was alive and kicking and only too happy to properly explain her research findings to any reporter who was bothered to ask.

Have you read the transcript yet?

Do you Boland accurately reported what Corless said or do you think she cherry picked?

I am all about accuracy backed up by evidence and that is what I have been posting.

Having read the transcript I do not get the impression Boland is. I see an agenda at play.

Do you think it really matters how many bodies may be in the tank?

I don't.

One is too many.

Obliq

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I prefer to get my facts right in the first place. ESPECIALLY when Catherine Corless was alive and kicking and only too happy to properly explain her research findings to any reporter who was bothered to ask.

Great, but the positives from the 800 babies in tank theory is that the crimes of our society and the things that were allowed/encoraged to happen are now being opened up and talked about. You're flogging a dead horse with banging on about how bad it is that the media jumped the gun and misrepresented Catherine Corless (who when I last checked, represents herself very well).